How to maximize my and my opponents enjoyment in each game

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Calmsword
Shas'Ui
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Re: How to maximize my and my opponents enjoyment in each game

Post#11 » Jul 31 2015 05:59

I love playing games with tonnes of terrain- it makes for a better turn out and no one ever walks away thinking that they wasted their time and makes better players who have to make their own opportunities.

I will say I'd like to have more complex cover rules in the future and I think that making the cover save in addition to the armor save is a great way to do that.

Shoot=Cover Save=Save=Wound
~Good Hunting

DominicJ
Shas
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Re: How to maximize my and my opponents enjoyment in each game

Post#12 » Aug 01 2015 12:30

ArttesThePerishable wrote:I'm going to agree fully with Myrdin. Typically if you can help advise your opponent it makes it more fun for them.

Also in line with DominicJ's philosophy you may find interest in looking up "Tau Commando" lists on this site. I have found that style of Tau to be both challenging, and effective, plus fun for both players if done well. It also seems to suit your preference of close up fighting. (so it's possible you've already heard of those tactics, but I thought it was worth a mention in case you haven't)


My Guard didnt do a great deal of "close up fighting", it was nasty.
Tended to deploy a platoon on the board and three demolishers.
Marine type dudes would charge across the board and butcher my deployment zone guys.

I would then deepstrike a platoon of guard in his DZ, another platoon in places to seize objectives (or get in the way, or kill stuff) and a few Sentinals.

People could cross the board and kill me, they just could recross the board and do it again.
There was also a psychological issue, not many people could get their heads around needing to kill 165 men, plus heavy tanks and light walkers.

Or I could drop 110 men right in the face of "gun lines" and run up 3 tanks
I'll MSU everything!!!!

DominicJ
Shas
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Re: How to maximize my and my opponents enjoyment in each game

Post#13 » Aug 05 2015 08:07

My Tau got their first blooding last night, just an 800pt game, I had three people (guy on the other side and the pair next to us) comment on how good my list was.
4 squads of fire warriors, three battle suits, two piranas and a Commander.
I moved every unit every turn pretty much, seized the centre line, CHARGED in to close combat (my commander was fighting a termie, figured I could hit first and kill him)
I'll MSU everything!!!!

Syndathim
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Re: How to maximize my and my opponents enjoyment in each game

Post#14 » Aug 06 2015 08:38

Going back to the Opening Post and the key issue of making the game fun for both of you; if you're playing friendly games, point out counters to your opponent afterwards. I find that after each battle my friends and I will sit down and chat about what the other person did wrong and provide constructive criticism. For instance someone took a whole load of Lascannons on devastators so I pointed out that Missile Launchers would be more effective (or possibly Heavy Bolters to chew through exposed firewarriors). I would also point out that deep striking Terminators into a key area is suicide thanks to EWO. Same for flyers that were getting annihilated by entrenched broadsides.

Since the earlier days where my opponent would get a hammering I now face very competitive Marine Armies. We have good games where things are tense and if I start to lose then I field an experimental list to throw my friends off guard (Mech Tau). This means they have interesting tactical choices to consider and makes list building fun.

So my TL/DR:
1) If your opponent is struggling to beat you, provided constructive criticism. Look through their army book with them and point out troop choices that may work effectively against you.
2) Field different armies to keep things fresh.
3) Lots of terrain is always a win for everyone involved.
Never Surrender Dreams.

A.Smiths Blog

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shasocastris
Shas'Vre
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Re: How to maximize my and my opponents enjoyment in each game

Post#15 » Aug 07 2015 10:04

Syndathim wrote:So my TL/DR:
1) If your opponent is struggling to beat you, provided constructive criticism. Look through their army book with them and point out troop choices that may work effectively against you.
2) Field different armies to keep things fresh.
3) Lots of terrain is always a win for everyone involved.

This I can get behind. For me, an enjoyable game is one that was challenging, and I'm all for constructive criticism both after and during a game (both given and received). It makes for an even better game the next time. I've even done this during tournaments, when my opponent was about to do something not as smart.

Cheers!

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Gamgee
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Re: How to maximize my and my opponents enjoyment in each game

Post#16 » Aug 07 2015 05:59

I once thought as you did. I had a decent list. Then people complained and complained. So I took out more and more things. Now I'm beating them with Firewarrior and Kroot Sniper spam. At some point it doesn't matter how much you try and help the little guys out there just not cut out for this. They will either get better and have fun or will accept they will likely never win or win once once in awhile due to sheer luck than any sort of skill. Nerfing yourself will only go so far. Making them better players will make them happy their whole lives. I don't show mercy, but I do try and improve their game. If they don't want to take advise from me then their fate is their own.

I've had to deal with a few people and even a friend like this once.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg

The reason I don't use my best lists is for if they manage to get better and think they're actually better I haven't showed my full hand. I'm fun like that.

Edit
In the 40k RPG the GM ran (Rogue Trader) no one liked me since I was the new guy. They just didn't like me, but I proved myself quite quickly by showering great rewards and boons on all of them. Even managed to derail the GM's campaign by usurping control of the planet I was protecting and being hailed as a hero for doing it. Well I protect it now and forever. Sometimes a person like me can seem really mean and you have to wonder why you keep us around. Then I start chucking turbo mansions at all of my loyal followers. :) I was the Rogue Trader if that wasn't clear. You don't know what your missing out on in life until you start upping your game. Is my point. They all quite like me now.
Great Strength, Great Strike ~ Shas'o Or'es'ka

DominicJ
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Re: How to maximize my and my opponents enjoyment in each game

Post#17 » Aug 08 2015 03:36

1) If your opponent is struggling to beat you, provided constructive criticism. Look through their army book with them and point out troop choices that may work effectively against you.
2) Field different armies to keep things fresh.
3) Lots of terrain is always a win for everyone involved.


Two and Three, yes.
I'd be careful with One though.

Even well meant, it can really come off badly, and theres nothing worse than being pounded by a netlister on a terrainless table, and then have said netlister give you a lecture on why you switch to grey knights and run a draigo wing, and a helldrake spam, or a ......
I'll MSU everything!!!!

Syndathim
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Re: How to maximize my and my opponents enjoyment in each game

Post#18 » Aug 10 2015 08:44

Thanks for the comment DominicJ - I should have added that I play primarily with three friends. As such any constructive criticism is given a hefty dash of banter but I can totally understand that a total stranger might take offence if you criticise them.
Never Surrender Dreams.

A.Smiths Blog

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materpillar
Shas'La
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Re: How to maximize my and my opponents enjoyment in each game

Post#19 » Aug 10 2015 03:14

I recently played a 2500 point game against two newer players who each brought a very unoptimized 1250 points each. Going into the game all I knew was that they were newer and were playing grey Knights/space marines, each were bringing about 1250 points, and one had a land raider.

Against this I intentionally handicapped myself 300 points, so I brought rather unoptimized 2200ish. I brought a handful of fusion blasters and a single broadside with plasma/HRR as my only ap 1/2/3. Even so I had mostly wrecked their army by turn 3.

This brings me to the following question. If my opponent has only played a handful of games (3-5), how much of a point handicap would even up the game for different point levels (1000/1500/2000)?
----- Akul Contingent -----
Engagement Results 54-18-8

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ShasODerpy
Shas'Ui
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Re: How to maximize my and my opponents enjoyment in each game

Post#20 » Aug 10 2015 03:34

Points are not a good indicator of army effectiveness. Some units are badly overpriced, or undercosted for their purpose.
Experienced player will be familiar with the strenghts/weaknesses of their codex, and prevent taking those units that are overpriced, or do not contribute to the army's strenght (whatever the reason).

Furthermore, playing a 2v1 will often see the advantage shift towards the solo player, as he is building a single force in sync with itself.
The 2 players are forced dual detachments, and will most likely be taking unit's that do not share army buffs etc.

It is difficult to find a proper balance when playing vs new players, fighting a 2v1 makes this even harder.


-Derp
Shas'O 50mm, the Foresighted
WIP Tau

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materpillar
Shas'La
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Re: How to maximize my and my opponents enjoyment in each game

Post#21 » Aug 10 2015 09:19

I would agree with all that. That's kind of why I'm wondering how many points do you think completely new players "waste" so to speak. In that last game I took a squad of HYMP broadsides, without which I think would have made for a much better game, or about a 500 point total handicap (250 per player). I think this would have made turn 3-5 much more interesting for both parties without being unwinnable. That's a 20% point differential.

That'd transition to 300 points off in a 1500 game or 400 in a 2000 point game. Again as a rule of thumb and without streamlining a list to make up for a point differential. Thoughts?
----- Akul Contingent -----
Engagement Results 54-18-8

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ShasODerpy
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Re: How to maximize my and my opponents enjoyment in each game

Post#22 » Aug 11 2015 03:05

Again, I find it just too difficult to balance list on points like that.

You said you brought Broadsides? In my earlier example I mentioned that some models are simply better then others, the Broadside would definatly fall into that category.
Just by bringing the Broadside you are inflating your effective army strenght compared to taking say, the same points in Hammerheads/Vespids.
In that same idea, 1000 points in Broadsides is a lot more effective then 1000 points in Vespid (or dare I say, Crisis Suits).

Versus newer players you'll be completely unfamiliar with what they have avaible (usually not much). and you'll see them picking options like ScoutMarines simply because they don't have anything else yet.

In that same scenario, the newer player might be a long-time collector, and field a full grav Drop-Pod army, allied to an Imperial Knight he just picked up cause it looked cool.


Say you take a beginners list of Firewarriors in fishes. I usually see these turn into fun games when paired vs some terminators, (scout) marines, and a dreadnought. But will get completely annihilated versus grav-pods and Knights.



What I usually do myself is play 1v1, ~1250 (or less, but never more) and take 2 lists with me. Depending on what I see he is attempting to field, I pick the list I think will result in the most interesting game, and the most learning opportunities.


-Derp
Shas'O 50mm, the Foresighted
WIP Tau

Shas'o Mont'Be'Gel
Shas
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Re: How to maximize my and my opponents enjoyment in each game

Post#23 » Aug 12 2015 12:48

Something I've tried that might sound interesting is the use of a smaller board, say, 4'x4'.

I played my friend's Daemonkin and he played my Orks and we had a helluva time knocking each other's brains out in close combat turn two. I know it's not much, but this is my two cents.

DominicJ
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Re: How to maximize my and my opponents enjoyment in each game

Post#24 » Aug 17 2015 02:51

A fairly sub optimal 1200pt list can be made from two battle forces, making two 600pts CADS.

I'm confident I could walk all over two 1200pt "newbie" lists, assuming they were newbie lists, IE models new people have available.
But then there are lists that I couldnt beat even if it was someones first game.

I'd say handicap yourself, point out where they have made mistakes, but its hard not to go too far and "across board" general.

In Fantasy to teach a guy how his Skaven warp lighting cannon worked I made him fire it maybe 30 times before he finally understood where to aim.
I'll MSU everything!!!!

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Tsuruki
Shas
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Re: How to maximize my and my opponents enjoyment in each game

Post#25 » Oct 13 2015 08:11

I generally find that you can make matches enjoyable in the following manner:

1)Play quick, accurate and loose. don't make announcements, don't rejoice too much when youre winning/lucky, don't make fun of your opponent when he has bad luck/losses. don't overemphazise the things you do, talking to yourself when you measure/plan might sound infuriating to certain players. Do not brag about your units or tactics, bragging especially is unpopular if nobody asked in the first place. Put the measuing tape as close and flat to the table as you can and give your opponent ample time to see it, that way nobody has to second guess ranges and it will circumvent a lot of possible arguments. don't pick up the dice immediately after rolling them unless they are negative for you (the enemy wants to know how good your roll is, he doesnt care how bad it was). Pay attention to your opponents measuring and dice when they are in use, especially if they dutifully watch you play during your own turn, not being present or not caring about the enemy moves may feel like a slap in the face for some players. Roll properly, don't just drop the dice or use some unique roll technique. If your opponent has the ability to react to an obvious threat but does'nt, like not spreading his models out when they are close to a transport full of templates and plates, remind him, that "oh right" moment can ruin your game so don't let it ruin other´s games. If someone makes a mistake that is easily and immediately reversible, reverse it. If something is not absolutely clear for your opponent but is absolutely clear to you, remind your opponent often. Bring your own dice, plates and ruler. Play quickly rather then meticulously, for example: move the first few models in a squad accurately, then bring in the ones behind more quickly and haphazardly.
The above is really just gamer ettique, many more examples exist that I may forgotten or am too used to. Some of it wont be nessessary for some types of players and is absolutely nessessary for others. The list is long, but really its all just nearly basic human courtesy. Win modestly and loose graciously.


2)don't brag! Basicly reemphazizing this part of gamer ettique. don't talk like your strategy is "so good" or a certain unit is "so powerful" or "just so damn useful". don't emphasizze a units power unless it lives up to it on the table, a Riptide wiping out marines is par-course, firewarriors punching down a demon prince isnt. If either player has something that is overpowered don't talk about it all game long.


3)don't bring what the internet tells you nor the absolutely strongest armies you can possibly assemble (strength needs to be proven through vigorous testing and is meta dependent, a wall of guardsmen is tough as nails against an army of nothing but naked gretchin, so if your local meta is "naked gretchin", a wall of guardsmen is a no-no, bring naked gretchin).
The point above will irk experienced players who do not themselves build from the internet and no self respecting newbie will respect you once they realise what you did. If you know specific individuals who powerplay then don't hesitate to go all out vs those players only. Don't ever tell anyone with a non-powerful army who you just beat with a powerful army "its perfectly legal, you can do it too", it will just exasperate them.


4)Read your opponent. Some people love to chat about op units. Some people like to make the whole battle a jokefest whoever might be winning. Some people hate smiles with a vengeance. Some people are straight faced during a match and all "do you remember when!" -after.


5)Your opinion is set in stone, an invisible stone buried somewhere under the great gas mass of jupiter along with the opinion stones of every single other human in the world. Nobody is ever going to see your opinion stone so don't try to describe it to them in intricate detail unless asked to (not agreeing with you is not the same as asking). If you cannot agree on something make a 50/50 roll on it, if they still disagree get a 3rd party older player or judge or check the net. Note that checking the net is a last resort, play quick and loose! Use your age group as a platform to jump from, land in the average age group of your fellow players, be the best of both worlds.


6)Smile, smell nice, be presentable. Keep your models and gaming devices presentable.


The text wall above is everything I can remember to be a fun player to play against. My 150 strong ork horde has never been unwelcome on any gaming table since I made it a Decade ago. All of the above is dependent on your exact personality and your oppoent's. Sometimes a person just isnt going to like you, the way there probably exist people that you absolutely hate the idea of being within earshot off. I hope it is as interesting a read to you guys as it was an interesting thought practice for me.
In the war against humanity, forethought is key.

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Whitefire
Shova
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Re: How to maximize my and my opponents enjoyment in each game

Post#26 » Oct 14 2015 02:37

I have to say gimping yourself is not IMHO the way to go. Give them a good game and don't be an arse about things, Sure turn 2-3 tablings of newbies is not a good thing but building them up because you threw the game will not help them become better players sure pull some punches but at the end of the day it is about fun but sometimes "you cannot have your cake and eat it too".

Recently me and 9 mates (well the joining of 2 different garage hammer groups) came together and had a round Robins style tournament 2k lists and we had the following

DE/Harlies
Jetbike Eldar
Wraith spam Eldar
Green tide with bikers
Nid MC spam with a trio of flyrants
Nid Horde
Necron Decuron
IG with Baneblade
Khorne daemonkin
and my House Orhlacc Imperial knights Exalted court

Same lists for every game, everyone except the Daemonkin player had a blast but that is due to him being a poor sport. The games we had were all randomly rolled for between Maelstrom and normal. a brief Rundown on each game I was in as follows:

DE/Harlies: Shot down a DE jet with heavy Stubbers and many lols were had, Rest of game was a bloodbath of me chasing and trying to kill jetbikes, And he Haywired a knight turn 1. I won well it was a good game we both won.

Eldar Jetbikes: had one of those hilarious moments when jetbikes do not get Jink due to scatter my 400ish point warlord bit the dust and cost me the win, Time was called and I needed the table had 2 close combat knights within 6" of his warlord and a wave serpant with 1 HP remaining in LOS to 2 battle cannons. We laughed it up shook hands and carried on. a loss is a loss cannot fault it it was still a good game.

Eldar Wraithspam: Now this is a bad one. Opponent quit after one Wraith knight died in combat to two close combat Knights and some D flamers bounced off a shield. Then made excuses about "I did not want to play today" "I threw the game" ect. he made these excuses with a couple of others as soon as the game stopped being in his favor. My win, No hand shake his behavior ruined the mood for me.

Green tide: I tabled him in his second turn... He was a good sport and I offered another game with his choice of 3 knights vs his 2k to kill time and had a blast. Hand shaken like a baws and then got a beer with him down at the local.

Nids MC: The Dice gods hated him after he nuked a battle cannon knight first turn. if something could go wrong it did. Of the 6 objectives 5 were skyire and 1 was sabotaged. Tabled but we both had fun another "to the pub moment"

Nid Horde: Bailed 5 min before the game. 2nd time he had done it with zero reason go kicked from it.

Necron: Necron won went to turn 6 if I had more turns I could have won but would have needed more lost 2 knight turn 2 and the other 3 had taken a beating. Ending a loss to me god I love maelstrom... Hand shake but too early for pub mission this time.

IG: okay a tank commander a couple of psykers and a Baneblade walk into a bar...escorted by a MILLION guards men. Guy got a lesson on how to run knights(he owns 3) (protip HYPERAGRO). It got tiring killing so many meat shields, I finally got to the target(baneblade), but it was kill points so I won by a landslide. Then we talked tactics and stuff due to him asking about my knights. Then had a drink (non pub). OH the bane blade took out a knight in its death which resulted in my knight killing 2 squads of guard by going boom.

Daemonkin: A player just getting back into the game from 3rd ed...it was a chore any question lead to flipping through the codex to find the statline of a marine, or a bloodletter, or another marine in the same turn. Also would not take constructive criticism in any way also spent most of his game on his Tabletphone. Also had a army from 3rd ed I say army but was mostly torso's on fantasy bases. Also go mad at prize giving due to his army did not win best painted/converted.

All in all the games were a great time and also expanded our circle a fair bit and saves us from going to the local clubs and abiding by their silly house rules and such... And when I say silly I mean silly i.e. Tau are forbidden from using markerlights due to too broken and things with them are permabanned oh and have outlawed largeblasts with ap better than 4.

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Technomagier
Shas'Saal
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Re: How to maximize my and my opponents enjoyment in each game

Post#27 » Oct 24 2015 04:50

I normally use a method from the game "Go". Dependings on a subjective tier ranking of codizes, and the experience of my opponent, I play like he/she has some Victory points in advance. So I'm forced to play different tactics, to win the current mission. Also I count every game, I could table my opponent, like a draw. So that wouldn't become an option to win the game. This, most of the time hidden, handicap keeps the game fresh and my mind sharp. I wish I could use an algorithm to rank players, like "Chess", or even better "Go". So we could use these kind of handicap style in the open, and the game would be more fair.

An alternate approach, a collegue of mine, showed to me, were the Nova Tournament missions. Every player could choose a mission that would fit the current List, the most. To bring your list somewhat down, you could choose a less favourable mission, and encourage your opponent, to choose an easy one.

Ricordis
Shas'La
Posts: 276

Re: How to maximize my and my opponents enjoyment in each game

Post#28 » Jan 24 2016 08:51

I started together with my friend (Bloods Angels) and It's hard for me to dose my excitement just right. I read tipps and such in forums, build my own Terrain and go frequently to my local GW.

Now I want to relate on the author's first post: Fighting Tau Against Blood Angels I have to specialize my List and pick out threats one by one.
My friend plays like a Space Marine would; Drop Pods, Cybots, walking in straight lines because of 3+ saves and tons of Flamers (if Sororitas weren't that expensive he would have played them).

My first two matches i tried to play as bad as I could. I memorized most of my profiles, linked special rules in my head (eg. WS >= T = Instant Death) and I know my Troops abilities. My friend still takes his "cheat sheet" with him so doesn't forget what his units actually can.
The moment I was shooting with Fusionblasters his Death Company and saying he couldn't use his Armor Save or Feel no Pain was like telling a child there are no presents for christmas: sad unbelieve.
The same when I fried in one turn with 3 Fusionblaster hits Cybot.

Smash your opponent but for your own favor: Dose it.

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