KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Use this area for all discussions of the "gaming" aspect of 40K/Tau.
XV566
Shas
Posts: 82

Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#61 » Sep 18 2015 03:12

I mean in my local meta, there's plenty of lords of war. In tournaments every single person runs them. People even ally with imperial knights just because we have to as tau.

I'm glad to see us have something to field.

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El'mo
Shas'El
Posts: 1481

Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#62 » Sep 18 2015 03:37

Bitterman wrote:Don't take it down your local FLGS and whip it out in a friendly 1500 point pick-up game, it would be ridiculous, no matter what the points allow. It's a centrepiece model - use it in centrepiece games. Face it off against your mate's Stompa, or your other mate's Warhound, or whatever. Throw it down with a bunch of fortifications and challenge two of your mates at once, to take you on in a Stronghold Assault. It's true that models this ridiculously powerful break 40K, which is still a skirmish-scope game at heart. That doesn't mean you can't use it - only that you really mustn't use it in a "normal" game.


Wholeheartedly agree. This is a model that makes an excellent Tau Cadre centrepiece - this is probably why I have pre-ordered one ;)
There are enough armies with their own equivalent of this which are unpleasant to play against so it is only fair to give your opponent warning of its use before placing it gently on the table whilst giggling hysterically.

What I am looking forward to is my next apocalypse game using this and my new Tiger Shark, both of which will need painting so I had better get on with it. Also I think I may need a bigger display case never mind thinking how to transport it to my local GW which is nowhere near a parking area ;)


Bitterman wrote:
Lord Mayhem wrote:
Bitterman wrote:We don't know for certain what the rules will be yet, but I'll eat my own face if it's not a super-heavy


If you do end up having to eat your own face, can we get it on Pay per View? :)


Does anyone have any ketchup...? :neutral:


Gets popcorn and sits comfortably waiting for the entertainment to begin ;)

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Emagdnim
Shas
Posts: 361

Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#63 » Sep 18 2015 03:39

I got a similar email from them too
" Blasphemy is a victimless crime"

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Deepstrike
Shas
Posts: 355

Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#64 » Sep 18 2015 03:46

LOL!!!! I completely forgot you said you'd do that Bitterman!! I'll provide the ketchup!! :biggrin: please make sure you film and post for the rest of us to see!!

As for monstrous rules and poison, they can only be poisoned on a 6+.

Also, there seems to be a little misconception over on the BOLS site about how many weapons a Gargantuan creature can fire... The way I read it is that it can fire all of its weapons at different targets, much like a super heavy... However, there are those on that site that believe it's like a monstrous creature in that it may only fire 2 weapons, due to the way one of the phrases is worded..

"Gargantuan Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have the additional rules and exceptions given below. Flying Gargantuan Creatures are Flying Monstrous Creatures that have the additional rules and exceptions given below."

Monstrous creature shooting reads as:

"Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase – they must, of course, fire both at the same target. They may never Go to Ground, voluntarily or otherwise."

Gargantuan creature shooting reads as this:

"When a Gargantuan Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature makes a shooting attack, it may fire each of its weapons at a different target if desired. In addition, firing Ordnance weapons has no effect on a Gargantuan Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature’s ability to fire other weapons. Gargantuan Creatures and Flying Gargantuan Creatures cannot fire Overwatch."

Personally, I still read it as ALL weapons may be fired. I'm very curious on the communities take on this though.

In the mean time, I have made a quick copy of the rules with picture and blurb all together for those that like them all together.

Thanks to El'mo for allowing me to use his photo hosting site.

Image

If you would prefer a PDF, please feel free to pm me directly.

Direct links to official rules and fluff:
FW rules
FW fluff
Last edited by Deepstrike on Sep 18 2015 06:06, edited 3 times in total.

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Bitterman
Shas
Posts: 909

Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#65 » Sep 18 2015 04:06

From those quotes, it seems clear cut to me.

"Gargantuan Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have the additional rules and exceptions given below... When a Gargantuan Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature makes a shooting attack, it may fire each of its weapons at a different target if desired."

Each of its weapons => all of its weapons. It doesn't say "both", or "two". It says "two" for MCs but overrides that with "each" for GCs.

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SinisterSamurai
Kor'La
Posts: 363

Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#66 » Sep 18 2015 04:13

Vector Strike wrote:Sent some questions to FW; this was their answer:

Well, we know that these rules are officially experimental, even if the stamp isn't there. I've heard it said that the stamp is no longer part of the forward-going FW doctrine, but they still called it experimental.

And out of curiosity, what questions is everyone specifically asking, just so we know which ones are going to be "frequent?"
Deepstrike wrote:Also, there seems to be a little misconception over on the BOLS site about how many weapons a Gargantuan creature can fire... The way I read it is that it can fire all of its weapons at different targets, much like a super heavy... However, there are those on that site that believe it's like a monstrous creature in that it may only fire 2 weapons, due to the way one of the phrases is worded..

"Gargantuan Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have the additional rules and exceptions given below. Flying Gargantuan Creatures are Flying Monstrous Creatures that have the additional rules and exceptions given below."

Monstrous creature shooting reads as:

"Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase – they must, of course, fire both at the same target. They may never Go to Ground, voluntarily or otherwise."

Gargantuan creature shooting reads as this:

"When a Gargantuan Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature makes a shooting attack, it may fire each of its weapons at a different target if desired. In addition, firing Ordnance weapons has no effect on a Gargantuan Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature’s ability to fire other weapons. Gargantuan Creatures and Flying Gargantuan Creatures cannot fire Overwatch."

Personally, I still read it as ALL weapons may be fired. I'm very curious on the communities take on this though.
This is one, for example, that I see coming up. The Garg Creature rules make a specific exception, but, people are disputing whether that exception is only for the single-target limit or both the single-target and two-weapon limits. Personally, leaning towards the latter.

Other questions:
*If, for some reason, it turns out that it's only two weapons, does the VDS count as a single weapon or as four? Technically the SMS and Burst cannons aren't listed in the Wargear, but the VDS is. The VDS therefore is a single piece of gear that provides them, rather than a simple special rule that modifies the overwatch rules for four weapons.

*All Tau models get Supporting Fire, but not this model. Some say it doesn't have Supporting Fire because GCs can't normally overwatch, and this is an oversight. Others say it's by design. Supporting Fire and a screen would make that BS2 overwatch way more appealing.

*The parenthetical omits the rules for Stomp and FNP from the PDF, even though these are provided to GCs by default in the primary rulebook. Are these rules excluded intentionally or simply just not written in?

*For the Barrier Shield, does the Destroyer have to bypass the invulnerable save before it can roll on the Destroyer table, or can a "saved" Destroyer weapon still drop the shield?

Edit: Before you ridicule me, note that I've already seen these questions come up. Some of them, I'd think were pretty clear cut, but....

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Deepstrike
Shas
Posts: 355

Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#67 » Sep 18 2015 04:26

SinisterSamurai wrote:
Vector Strike wrote:Sent some questions to FW; this was their answer:

Well, we know that these rules are officially experimental, even if the stamp isn't there. I've heard it said that the stamp is no longer part of the forward-going FW doctrine, but they still called it experimental.

And out of curiosity, what questions is everyone specifically asking, just so we know which ones are going to be "frequent?"
Deepstrike wrote:Also, there seems to be a little misconception over on the BOLS site about how many weapons a Gargantuan creature can fire... The way I read it is that it can fire all of its weapons at different targets, much like a super heavy... However, there are those on that site that believe it's like a monstrous creature in that it may only fire 2 weapons, due to the way one of the phrases is worded..

"Gargantuan Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have the additional rules and exceptions given below. Flying Gargantuan Creatures are Flying Monstrous Creatures that have the additional rules and exceptions given below."

Monstrous creature shooting reads as:

"Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase – they must, of course, fire both at the same target. They may never Go to Ground, voluntarily or otherwise."

Gargantuan creature shooting reads as this:

"When a Gargantuan Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature makes a shooting attack, it may fire each of its weapons at a different target if desired. In addition, firing Ordnance weapons has no effect on a Gargantuan Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature’s ability to fire other weapons. Gargantuan Creatures and Flying Gargantuan Creatures cannot fire Overwatch."

Personally, I still read it as ALL weapons may be fired. I'm very curious on the communities take on this though.
This is one, for example, that I see coming up. The Garg Creature rules make a specific exception, but, people are disputing whether that exception is only for the single-target limit or both the single-target and two-weapon limits. Personally, leaning towards the latter.

Other questions:
*If, for some reason, it turns out that it's only two weapons, does the VDS count as a single weapon or as four? Technically the SMS and Burst cannons aren't listed in the Wargear, but the VDS is. The VDS therefore is a single piece of gear that provides them, rather than a simple special rule that modifies the overwatch rules for four weapons.

*All Tau models get Supporting Fire, but not this model. Some say it doesn't have Supporting Fire because GCs can't normally overwatch, and this is an oversight. Others say it's by design. Supporting Fire and a screen would make that BS2 overwatch way more appealing.

*The parenthetical omits the rules for Stomp and FNP from the PDF, even though these are provided to GCs by default in the primary rulebook. Are these rules excluded intentionally or simply just not written in?

*For the Barrier Shield, does the Destroyer have to bypass the invulnerable save before it can roll on the Destroyer table, or can a "saved" Destroyer weapon still drop the shield?

Edit: Before you ridicule me, note that I've already seen these questions come up. Some of them, I'd think were pretty clear cut, but....


Apparently what we, and most of the English speaking world consider obvious are two different things...I agree with what you're saying. Also, you should confirm that if for some silly reason it is only two weapons, that our Multi-Tracker rule for ALL Tau Battle Suits still stands.

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Vector Strike
Shas'La
Posts: 881

Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#68 » Sep 18 2015 04:30

SinisterSamurai wrote:And out of curiosity, what questions is everyone specifically asking, just so we know which ones are going to be "frequent?"
*For the Barrier Shield, does the Destroyer have to bypass the invulnerable save before it can roll on the Destroyer table, or can a "saved" Destroyer weapon still drop the shield?


That one is easy. Deathblow is when you roll a 6 in the Destroyer table. You cannot save it anyway, so the enemy just need to roll a 6 to drop the shield (a unit with more than 1 D attack must roll it one-by-one, so you can know when the shield is gone)

regarding the other questions, I've sent those:

- Are these the final rules to go with Imperial Armour 14 or are they experimental? The lack of experimental seal seems to me they're not final.
- If the rules are not final, is there any chance the arm-mounted weapons will get Large Blast firing modes? Seems like they have the potential for those. And only 24" for the Melta arm? I can't see many reasons to buy that one.
- The Smart Missile System isn't twin-linked in the rules (Vigilance Defence System), while they look like they are on the model. Was that a mistake?
- Looks like you guys missed Feel no Pain and Stomp special rules within the Gargantuan Creature parentheses.
- There's some discussion if Gargantuan Creatures can fire more than 2 weapons in their Shooting Phase. By the number of weapons in this thing, I assume you guys agree that they can.
- Why the "No Cover Saves" expression instead of "Ignores Cover" with the Pattern Bombardment? I believe they work the same way, but you know... some players are too picky with these things.
- Do you guys plan on releasing more arm or shoulder options for it? Rail weaponry would be lovely on such a machine.
- Should we expect model and rules for the Super-Heavy Skimmer we've heard about anytime soon?

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Gamgee
Shas
Posts: 88

Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#69 » Sep 18 2015 05:30

The ITC I think someone called it? I'm not sure, but a big tournament standard lets GMC's fire all of their guns and at different targets so that's how they ruled it.
Great Strength, Great Strike ~ Shas'o Or'es'ka

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DaceKhan
Shas
Posts: 42

Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#70 » Sep 18 2015 05:53

I'd be tempted for the Melta, in apocalypse where many nasty SH vehicles wish to come close, 10 melta shots could definitely deter them.

Overall, I think it's a solid LoW, it packs more durability than firepower, which is good because any opponent is going to waste shots at this monster. The massive blast D combined with markerlight support for ignores cover is brutal!

I realized though if you get hit by 2 destroyer weapons (from the same enemy), one rolls 'Deathblow' and the other 2-5 roll, your opponent will choose the deathblow first :( resulting in a lot of wounds
Until all are one

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Gamgee
Shas
Posts: 88

Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#71 » Sep 18 2015 06:21

DaceKhan wrote:I'd be tempted for the Melta, in apocalypse where many nasty SH vehicles wish to come close, 10 melta shots could definitely deter them.

Overall, I think it's a solid LoW, it packs more durability than firepower, which is good because any opponent is going to waste shots at this monster. The massive blast D combined with markerlight support for ignores cover is brutal!

I realized though if you get hit by 2 destroyer weapons (from the same enemy), one rolls 'Deathblow' and the other 2-5 roll, your opponent will choose the deathblow first :( resulting in a lot of wounds

If they have two different D weapons on one enemy unit. So if you have four D shots from a bunch of one type of weapons it considers them all firing at once. So the shield would protect against the four shots from that weapon and if whatever is shooting has another weapon system to attack that does D then yeah it would get through.

That's how I heard it explained to me anyways in a few places on a few forums about people asking that question.
Great Strength, Great Strike ~ Shas'o Or'es'ka

Shas'o Mont'Be'Gel
Shas
Posts: 16

Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#72 » Sep 18 2015 07:48

It seems odd to say this, but I'm a little disappointed with the experimental rules. You'd think this monster of a suit would be riddled with more special rules. This feels almost half baked. But who am I to complain, Tau have their own little Titan now.

On a fluff note, it is flat out stated that this suit was designed for static defense, something that goes against the fact that Tau do not see the value of holding ground. They would much rather be on the offensive.

Thoughts?

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Stygian
Shas
Posts: 64

Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#73 » Sep 18 2015 08:06

While it does say the Ta'unar is meant for defense and isnt as maneuverable as other suits I don't think its meant as a "static" defense. With its massive range it could bombard an enemy then reposition to another location without ever actually engaging the enemy face to face

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M'yen
Shas
Posts: 45

Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#74 » Sep 18 2015 08:37

Shas'o Mont'Be'Gel wrote:It seems odd to say this, but I'm a little disappointed with the experimental rules. You'd think this monster of a suit would be riddled with more special rules. This feels almost half baked. But who am I to complain, Tau have their own little Titan now.

On a fluff note, it is flat out stated that this suit was designed for static defense, something that goes against the fact that Tau do not see the value of holding ground. They would much rather be on the offensive.

Thoughts?


The Ta'unar has the same battlefield role as Broadsides, but it can at least walk and then fire normally which Broadsides can't. Even if Tau don't value holding ground for its own sake, sometimes it is necessary to hinder the enemy. A gigantic, resilient battlesuit with incredible firepower is at the very least a hindrance. ;)
/M'yen

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Stygian
Shas
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Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#75 » Sep 18 2015 08:51

Not to mention the sheer psychological factor of having your company blown in half without ever even seeing the Ta'Unar :D It does heavy damage from a very long distance giving it plenty of time to shift and can even serve as a "high priority" distraction while a cadre attacks the flank. Trapping say.. an armor company between a rock and a hard place. That plus its ability to handle super-heavies and Titans makes it a valuable resource, there's even a good chance i'm missing other possible applications for the supremacy suit.

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Deepstrike
Shas
Posts: 355

Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#76 » Sep 18 2015 09:12

It would have been nice to have been able to throw 6 X ion templates out, but the increased damage output is worth it in my eyes, especially since the main gun can put out a pretty good barrage.

I'm a little surprised that it can't take any battle suit upgrades, especially a velocity tracker or an EWO.

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Chris in the socal
Shas'Ui
Posts: 271

Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#77 » Sep 18 2015 10:25

I guess I was hoping for more. I thought there would be more options like the web preview showed. Hope they add some more options to the suit and bring out a new IA book to support it and whatever's new.
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Is That A Sunfish? (Coming Soon)

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ARC'Thunder
Shas'Vre
Posts: 850

Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#78 » Sep 18 2015 10:34

Shas'o Mont'Be'Gel wrote:On a fluff note, it is flat out stated that this suit was designed for static defense, something that goes against the fact that Tau do not see the value of holding ground. They would much rather be on the offensive.

Thoughts?
I could insert some ramblings about the often quoted shift in the tau warfare paradigm, but I think it would be as pointless as the sentiment itself.

Ultimately, the KX139 could only ever conceivably (reasonably?) be used in a defensive capacity. It represents a logistics nightmare, and lacks enough strategic mobility to limit its effectiveness as an offensive tool. The suit cannot be transported inside of a Manta whole, and would require assembly/disassembly for transportation other than its own motive force. Also, its own motive force is limited by its bipedal nature and size; there is some terrain it could excel in (best suited for urban terrain, I think), but is not truly all-terrain in the same manner as our skimmers (and flyers).

Right now, it is a fairly mobile artillery piece on a tactical level, and will be able to relocate and affect a (somewhat limited) front. But it cannot be expected to spearhead a traditional tau attack without significant preparation.

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