KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

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Kakapo42
Shas'Vre
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Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#51 » Sep 18 2015 09:27

Now that it's released I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it.

On the one hand it's a perfectly serviceable model - well, not quite, I still have a few problems with it from an aesthetic standpoint, but I can see potential and I've already identified just how I'd convert it to fit my liking (which would be a fairly easy task in itself - some shifting and modifying of parts here, a little bit of reposing there and I'd be in business). The rules aren't too bad either from what I can see, it might not necessarily be a titan-killer, but it looks like a pretty-decent Knight-buster, able to stand toe-to-toe with the average Imperial Knight and stand a good chance of coming out on top, with less raw power in melee being offset by a better protective shield and more ranged firepower. I'll be interested to see what innovative tactics and combinations members on here come up with as they explore its capabilities further.

On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure I'm sold on its background. The first glimpses of it I saw suggested that it was primarily intended for fighting in extreme environments too harsh for conventional units to effectively operate in, and I could definitely get behind this idea, indeed I suggested something along those lines as a possible explanation some time ago (in essence under this idea it would sort of be a Tau equivalent of the Object 279 experimental tank prototype the Soviets developed in the 1950s). The description on the Forgeworld website suggests they have gone with the somewhat simpler concept of 'direct counter for bigger nastier enemies too much for all the units and weapons currently in use'. I personally find this a little bit boring, and as an Air Caste admiral at heart I found the online description a bit smarting (Our aerospace craft outclassed? Bah! Give my strike craft crews a superheavy target and they'll turn it into a smoking crater inside of 30 rai'kor, air defences or no!). I'm also a bit confused by the description of the pulse ordinance multi-driver, It was always my understanding that the 'pulse' part of pulse weapons came from the plasma pulse bursts they fired - surely using induction fields to propel solid munitions would make these some sort of mass-driver rather than a pulse weapon?

The more I think about it the less sure I am I'll get one. Don't get me wrong, I can definitely appreciate how others can like it, and I'm very happy for those who are pleased with it (and it's always good to see some xenos love from Forgeworld), but more and more I'm thinking it just isn't right for me. As much as I always daydreamed about Tau titan equivalents when I was younger, at the end of the day I've come to really like how the Tau solution to superheavy units in the past was always an asymmetrical one rather than a symmetrical one - defeating the carrier group with a barrage of anti-ship cruise missiles launched from bombers and submarines rather than dukeing it out with another carrier group, to use a Cold War analogy. The more I think about it, I just don't think it fits with the character of my army - my hunter cadre's commander is a very 'grass-roots' character, the sort of military leader who prioritises good communications gear and supplies over prototype superweapons, values small-scale support weapons and equipment and generally thinks there's always an important place for the common infantryman no matter what, and who tends to defeat giant scary things asymmetrically with smart tactics and good leadership rather than sheer brute force. The more I think about it, the more he probably wouldn't see much use for something like the KX-139, and as a storyteller first and a hobbyist second that in-universe thought process is an important one for me. The more I think about it, the more it just isn't my style.

Of course, all that said I can definitely see how it would fit well with other member's armies, and the great thing about the current situation is that both approaches are (on paper at least) viable. Really as long as my trusty bread-and-butter staple units aren't overshadowed too much, I think everything should be just fine. :)
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Morollan
Shas
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Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#52 » Sep 18 2015 09:30

zenitslav wrote:So I have been looking at the rules for this one and the model and I can't for the life of me figure out where the "Fusion Eradicator" sits on the model, All that I can see is the two Tri-Axis Cannon's and the Pulse ordnance multi-driver. There are also a bunch of sms and burst cannons that does not have any profiles on the rules sheet.


Both clearly explained in the rules:

The Tau KX139 Ta’unar Supremacy Armour may exchange either of its tri-axis ion cannon for a fusion eradicator for Free.


Vigilance Defence System
The vigilance defence system comprises two smart missile systems and two twin-linked burst cannon which may be fired normally.

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Das'Kyman
Shas'Vre
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Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#53 » Sep 18 2015 09:45

Before everyone writes off the Fusion arms, consider a few things:

Just because it is a Fusion weapon doesn't mean it has to be within 12" to be useful. 24" plus the 12" GC movement is 36" (acceptable for most players, seeing as how everyone uses HYMP broadsides)
It has significantly more shots (66% more) than the focused Ion and only one less than the regular Ion. S8 double taps the majority of infantry units in the game. AP1 makes it better than the regular Ion shots against 2+ armour targets. S8 is also better against anything with a toughness of 6+. Against Imperial Knights (AV13) the fusion strips more HP at 24" and the if the IK is outside of 24" then it cannot assault you next turn anyways.
So it has more shots than the focused Ion, and better S/AP than the regular Ion. Melta, for when Imperial Knights close in. Aside from AB14 targets, the only disadvantage is the max range, which will only be a factor against a target which can threaten the KX-139 at long range. The wraithknight seems like the obvious issue here, especially since you can take two WK for the price of one Ta'unar. However, this suit is so incredibly resilient, even against ranged D attacks, I can't help but wonder if it wouldn't be better to just ignore the WK and kill everything else (that barrage seems custom-built for wiping out Jetbikes and Seerstars.

There is also the psychological effect. An opponent may see the 24" range and decide to put his units out of harms way, when he otherwise would be claiming an objective. Creating a bubble of death makes your opponent at least consider the option of staying outside of it, which in most cases will be a bad idea.

Just my opinion. I am not sure which one I would take, but I don't like to see the Fusion arm dismissed before it has even been sold

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Emagdnim
Shas
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Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#54 » Sep 18 2015 09:51

Also, I'm kinda hoping all Ion goes this way.. over xharge was stupid and too risky and doesnt fit Tau imo. Where as a multishot or solid beamy type would really help vs armour, something tau lack.

It woyld also mean that maybe rail rifles will get the submunition type on the larger cannons ? Sure they wont be s8 ap3 (guessing s4/5 for rifles etc) but no overcharged to worry about and that type is already in the game / fluff.

ATM no one uses it (baring R'varna that has to) because you need every rail weapon to kill armour..however, if ion now goes from say 3x s7 ap3 to say 1x s9 ap2 variable profile, you might not need to always go solid rail shot.

Ion is on everything , from flyers,to suits to tanks and even pathfinders.I really hope this next codex will follow suit but it sounds too good / strong / fluffy to be true
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ShasODerpy
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Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#55 » Sep 18 2015 12:48

By the way... Toughness 9, 10 wounds. with Barrier shielding and FNP

Just imagine encountering this in a Tau vs Tau match.
As it stands, I cant think of a single way on how to down one of these. (outside of some ridiculous allied choices.)

Melta's wound these on 5's, just think about that for awhile.
Even our strongest weapon, the Hammerhead Railgun wounds on a 3 (not that the single shot would be any better then spamming melta's at it)


Trying not to come across as the "whiny guy", but would you seriously blame anyone for saying "no game" when you bring one of these?

I really, Really hope our new Codex doesn't stray this far into the "go big or go home" idea, or I might see myself just shelving my Tau.


-Derp
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Vay
Shas'Ui
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Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#56 » Sep 18 2015 01:16

Bulk fire, out flank, and or evade and capture obj. WK, IK, and what not already stalk my local meta. He is very kill able.

Lead way in my meta, no EWO. So 2-3 DS drop pods land and drop mech grav troops. 36 grav shots later...

Some meta, yes hard to kill. Full out no limit currant meta, not worse then a Wraith Knight.
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Vector Strike
Shas'La
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Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#57 » Sep 18 2015 01:45

Sent some questions to FW; this was their answer:

Image

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tekkblade
Shas
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Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#58 » Sep 18 2015 01:58

Vay wrote:Bulk fire, out flank, and or evade and capture obj. WK, IK, and what not already stalk my local meta. He is very kill able.

Lead way in my meta, no EWO. So 2-3 DS drop pods land and drop mech grav troops. 36 grav shots later...

Some meta, yes hard to kill. Full out no limit currant meta, not worse then a Wraith Knight.


36 grav shots later is just 6.666667 wounds, and that's assuming the Tau player doesn't bring two full missileside units with EWO. No one puts a big shinny diamond out without some security.

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ThreeSixRemix
Shas
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Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#59 » Sep 18 2015 02:02

Maybe it's just me, but I'm personally happy with what I'm seeing so far. Now personally, at this point in time at least, I've been painting and modeling more than playing (most of my army took a beating in my recent move and its a sluggish process to repair and repaint), but I'm glad this thing isn't stupid powerful. I mean if this beast of suit had every rule we wanted on our collective wishlist, I'd be concerned that the next army to get their next big model would be equally stupidly powerful or even more so. I'll take a slow power creep or attempted balancing over leapfrogging by leaps and bounds any day.
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Bitterman
Shas
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Re: KX-139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour discussion

Post#60 » Sep 18 2015 03:03

ShasODerpy wrote:Melta's wound these on 5's, just think about that for awhile.
Even our strongest weapon, the Hammerhead Railgun wounds on a 3 (not that the single shot would be any better then spamming melta's at it)

Trying not to come across as the "whiny guy", but would you seriously blame anyone for saying "no game" when you bring one of these?


It's an artefact of 40K's rules. Gargantuan monsters with a generous T and armour save are damn near indestructible (though does Poison still affect them? Not sure). Drop the T very far and it's too fragile (even T7 can be wounded by bolters), drop the W very far and it doesn't stand up to much firepower, increase the points and who'd take it? That just leaves making it a vehicle, which would make more sense (even our Crisis suits should be walkers. I mean look at them. They're walkers!) but the vehicle rules are clunky enough as it is. Fancy your £250, 600 point model dying in a couple of lucky hits, anyone? Nah.

Ultimately, just like you don't want to be the "whiny guy", anyone who gets one of these (ooh! ooh! <raises hand>) is going to have to not be "that guy". Don't take it down your local FLGS and whip it out in a friendly 1500 point pick-up game, it would be ridiculous, no matter what the points allow. It's a centrepiece model - use it in centrepiece games. Face it off against your mate's Stompa, or your other mate's Warhound, or whatever. Throw it down with a bunch of fortifications and challenge two of your mates at once, to take you on in a Stronghold Assault. It's true that models this ridiculously powerful break 40K, which is still a skirmish-scope game at heart. That doesn't mean you can't use it - only that you really mustn't use it in a "normal" game.

Oh... and speaking of wounds versus armour values...

Lord Mayhem wrote:
Bitterman wrote:We don't know for certain what the rules will be yet, but I'll eat my own face if it's not a super-heavy


If you do end up having to eat your own face, can we get it on Pay per View? :)


Does anyone have any ketchup...? :neutral:

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