Enclaves and the alien

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Entil'zha
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Enclaves and the alien

Post#1 » Nov 16 2016 03:07

I can't seam to find an answer online or my books.

Do the enclaves incorporate alien races into their society and if so how does it compare to the empire?

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Mirth
Shas'La
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Re: Enclaves and the alien

Post#2 » Nov 16 2016 06:10

I would imagine that the Farsight Enclaves do incorporate other races into their midst- if anything I would imagine it being even more on a merit-basis than the normal Tau Empire, due to a comparative lack of beings present within the Enclaves, as compared to the Empire.

That is my speculation, though- anyone have more hard evidence regarding this?
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Kakapo42
Shas'Vre
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Re: Enclaves and the alien

Post#3 » Nov 16 2016 06:55

It depends on what version of the Enclaves you go with.

When they first appeared in the original 3rd edition Codex: Tau (hallowed be thy name), the Enclaves did not include auxiliaries. They had far less resources than the Tau Empire did, so the general reasoning seems to have been that they were too poor to hire Kroot mercenaries (this being when even Kroot working for the Tau were largely motivated by tangible reward), the only auxiliaries available in the codex at the time. For similar reasons they also weren't allowed to take Gun Drone Squadrons, and everything else except Firewarriors, Devilfish and Crisis teams was restricted to a 0-1 choice (which meant that you could only field a maximum of one Fast attack and two heavy support choices in the entire army). They also couldn't include Ethereals, but that wasn't because of their resource shortages.

Later on in the 4th edition codex they still didn't feature auxiliaries, being unable to field Kroot or Vespids for... reasons. It was still included in the Breakaway Faction special rule that enforced these restrictions (and that I actually really liked, believe it or not. It gave a great guerrilla army vibe to Enclave armies), which had been expanded to include the new units the 4th edition codex brought with it, but Kroot aligned with the Tau were starting to be depicted as being more ideologically motivated and less interested in cold hard payment, and Vespid were voluntary members of the Tau Empire with ideological motivation right from the start, so that explanation no longer really worked as well. GW writings at the time, as well as fan theory, seemed to suggest a Tau-supremacist edge to the Enclaves at the time.

Then at the time of the 6th edition codex things started to change. The Enclaves, which up until now had been Tau with extra grimdark added in (seriously, the old-school 3rd edition Enclaves were extremely dark and shady), were effectively retconed to more explicitly fit a more heroic image of an underground freedom fighter movement. Under this depiction the Enclaves did include Auxiliaries and I believe the Enclaves expansion book has an entire Enclave world given over to Gue'vessa. Under this depiction they also have a lot more stuff at their disposal, supplementing their own resources and industrial base with goods and technology begged borrowed or stolen from the Tau Empire.

So it's down to what version of the Enclaves you prefer. Personally I prefer the dark shady Tau Brotherhood of Nod that the 3rd edition Enclaves were, and that's what I generally go with for my Battlefleet Gothic background, but others have their own ideas.
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El ZorDacK
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Re: Enclaves and the alien

Post#4 » Nov 16 2016 06:57

They have some GueVesa, surely Kroots

Entil'zha
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Posts: 89

Re: Enclaves and the alien

Post#5 » Nov 16 2016 07:16

Yea the farsight supplement says they have a human world but says nothing else on the matter. I also understand that the empire and the enclaves has switched roles in regards to how they are. I'm just after some current info on how/if they do integration of aliens

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Calmsword
Shas'Ui
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Re: Enclaves and the alien

Post#6 » Nov 16 2016 09:30

Unfortunately you're not going to get things like that with the Tau. Because our faction is so butchered on the fluff side- every new entry typically contradicts something established (I don't want to be the one that sets of the 'is Tau blood blue' so early in the new website...)

But I'll give you another nugget.

In Relic lore it was Farsight that developed the use of Vespid and Crisis suit combination tactics during the first war over the settlement of Kronos (Dawn of War).

There's never been a stated animosity that the Enclaves have, like the Kel'shani, just that in the initial rule book they were under-supplied.

My own speculation would have the Enclaves not employing Kroot. The Kroot that are beyond the boundaries of the Empire tend to keep clear of Tau as it might harm their relationship established between the Master Shaper Anghor and the Tau. As to the Vespid- we don't really know what their reproduction cycle is like, just that they have queens and that they send their 'princes' to the Empire. On the flipside, we know that the Tau incorporate their allies in their settlement programs- so it really is up to you.
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Entil'zha
Shas'Saal
Posts: 89

Re: Enclaves and the alien

Post#7 » Nov 17 2016 12:57

The kroot and vespid lore I found matches even some other things from the tau codex, like the worms. I do know the most resent lore (kuayon and mont'ka) humans are all being moved to force labor settlements. So the empire is straight up evil now, but I need to know about farsight

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Calmsword
Shas'Ui
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Re: Enclaves and the alien

Post#8 » Nov 17 2016 02:33

I think you might be taking a single example too far. The humans on the planet becoming a Sept known as Mu'gulath Bay are being sent to labor camps and, in the BL books about that event, to conversion centers.

There are human planets in the Empire that have never known the Imperium and are working their way to full membership within the Empire (like the Kroot but not like the Vespid who hold the highest position amongst the allied species it seems).

The Empire is not straight up evil... That's just reductionism.

As I've stated before you're not going to get a complete answer with Tau. If you want to speculate we can talk all day but there isn't going to be a factual answer lore-enthusiasts like myself can really give you.

The things we know about Farsight is that he developed auxiliary tactics, brought at least one human world into compliance and operates on a defensive agenda to protect the Empire... If I were to speculate I would say Farsight probably doesn't use Auxiliaries except in low-security areas like outposts and those Auxiliaries would be primarily humans.

This is because the Fire Caste controls the Enclaves- they are not balanced and are at a constant war footing. The Fire Caste has an extremely high regard to any that protect the community- but with Humans having such a terrible track record I wouldn't see Farsight trusting them. And he shouldn't.
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Process
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Posts: 7

Re: Enclaves and the alien

Post#9 » Nov 17 2016 05:02

I don't know if this is specifically a fluff convo, but the idea of human aux units really interests me, (i have a squad of IG left over from when i collected over 10 years ago, unpainted), i know there are rules available for guvesa(?), i found some written by an andy hoare, but are they applicable for 7th edition? and if not does anybody run these units with different rules?
Also, have you encountered any opposition to using them?

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Kakapo42
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Re: Enclaves and the alien

Post#10 » Nov 17 2016 05:29

Process wrote:I don't know if this is specifically a fluff convo, but the idea of human aux units really interests me, (i have a squad of IG left over from when i collected over 10 years ago, unpainted), i know there are rules available for guvesa(?), i found some written by an andy hoare, but are they applicable for 7th edition? and if not does anybody run these units with different rules?
Also, have you encountered any opposition to using them?


Imperial Guard as an allied detachment would be the logical choice for 7th edition as I understand it. If there are still dedicated rules for Gue'vessa units, I imagine they'd most likely be found in Imperial Armour Volume 3 Second Edition, as the first edition of IA:3 was where a modified version of the original Chapter Approved rules for Gue'vessa ended up.
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Entil'zha
Shas'Saal
Posts: 89

Re: Enclaves and the alien

Post#11 » Nov 17 2016 11:48

Calmsword you are completely correct, I totally got that wrong. The Empire is not evil as most of the population completely believes in the goal of spreading the secular truth of the greater good. AunVa on the other hand was becoming a little Hitler ish. Maybe with his death the Empire will lose some of that growing bad guy vibe.

I do also understand that the Empire has brought a great many dispossessed races into the fold but they also have completely wiped out some races whose only crime was living on a world of the ethereals did not want them living on.

Now the topic was the enclaves; I know that they are now able to use Kroot and vespid, and they have a human world, but I can find nothing on their stance on integration of humans. I have hope of good lore on this somewhere because Farsight is merit-based and as a result non-fire caste can use battle suits. So if some human showed the discipline and skill could they be integrated into the fire caste or would the humans forever be forced to use the human auxiliary rules found in IA:3? I.e. Lasguns instead of pulse rifles?

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Calmsword
Shas'Ui
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Posts: 1511

Re: Enclaves and the alien

Post#12 » Nov 18 2016 02:54

The only races that come to mind are the Orks, Reek and the Arachen which we know that both of those pose a lethal threat in the extreme for all other life in the Galaxy.

The Tau were designed as good guys, the one guy in a Cthulu horror story that doesn't know he's in one.

Yes they manipulate societies but nothing I would ever infer as 40k level 'evil'. Yes Aun'va got... Hitlerish... But his appearance was only after a loud minority kept declaring the Tau were too goody two shoes. That doesn't disregard it- but I think you'll find a lot of members on this site agree that those eras weren't entirely thought out. Personally, I'd say the Tau are morally somewhere between 'hitler' and what the founding fathers of america thought about nation building.

Now the topic was the enclaves; I know that they are now able to use Kroot and vespid, and they have a human world, but I can find nothing on their stance on integration of humans. I have hope of good lore on this somewhere because Farsight is merit-based and as a result non-fire caste can use battle suits. So if some human showed the discipline and skill could they be integrated into the fire caste or would the humans forever be forced to use the human auxiliary rules found in IA:3? I.e. Lasguns instead of pulse rifles?


And you won't. There frankly is none in regards to integration. The entirety of Tau culture is merit based. Farsight is unique in that the Fire Caste is entirely in charge. Usually, a 'Chia'gor' council is held to determine which Caste should lead in an endeavor- as Kakapo mentioned from the first codex, the real 'fear' of the Enclaves is a Tau society on a constant war-footing.

Humans have been integrated into Tau military to a point of relative seamlessness since the 3rd Sphere under Shadowsun. They are armed with carapace armor, communications suits and pulse weapons all in line with the Fire Caste. There are examples of human heroes, human units committing to one another with the Ta'lissera, in short, they are more like Tau than they are human in many ways.

We also have Gue'vesa'O Va'deem, a former inquisitor left behind during the Damocles Gulf Crusade who is still alive leading a counter-Imperial intelligence initiative that pilots a customized battlesuit. So that's canonical.

I'd say if you wanted to model some figures- you're totally within fluff norms... as weird as that is to write, lol. :biggrin:

I think it's ultimately an aesthetic. If you want to model humans using and piloting Tau gear- it works. If you want to do IG allies, it also makes sense, especially since Tau manufacture human weapons for auxileries like in the Taros campaign.

Game wise alone- you're stuck with the Taros version of Gue'vesa.
~Good Hunting

Entil'zha
Shas'Saal
Posts: 89

Re: Enclaves and the alien

Post#13 » Nov 18 2016 12:16

I sadly have never had a chance to read the Tau IA, is that where you found out about the inquisitor?

If currently there is no lore about humans being integrated into the fire caste then I will patiently wait and hope.

Thank you for assisting me on a lore question.

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Calmsword
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1511

Re: Enclaves and the alien

Post#14 » Nov 18 2016 05:17

I know what you mean- but to be clear: no alien gets integrated into a caste; they are always in auxilery cadres.

Read Broken Swords, it's probably the best story out by BL.
~Good Hunting

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SinisterSamurai
Kor'La
Kor'La
Posts: 399

Re: Enclaves and the alien

Post#15 » Nov 18 2016 08:19

Kakapo42 wrote:
Process wrote:I don't know if this is specifically a fluff convo, but the idea of human aux units really interests me, (i have a squad of IG left over from when i collected over 10 years ago, unpainted), i know there are rules available for guvesa(?), i found some written by an andy hoare, but are they applicable for 7th edition? and if not does anybody run these units with different rules?
Also, have you encountered any opposition to using them?


Imperial Guard as an allied detachment would be the logical choice for 7th edition as I understand it. If there are still dedicated rules for Gue'vessa units, I imagine they'd most likely be found in Imperial Armour Volume 3 Second Edition, as the first edition of IA:3 was where a modified version of the original Chapter Approved rules for Gue'vessa ended up.
The second edition certainly has gue'vesa, but technically limits their availability to use within the Taros Campaign. The First edition had that as well as a human mining gang that could also be used as Tau troops. The stat blocks for both aren't all that out of sorts with the current system, so I don't see why they couldn't be used, other than the campaign-only caveat.

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