8th edition

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2635

Re: 8th edition

Post#21 » Mar 24 2017 12:28

nic wrote:
Panzer wrote:Of course that info will hurt the sales but it's still a LOT better for GW than just one day dropping the new edition out of the blue.


Releasing this info makes me think that the rumours of a June release are about right, sales of rulebooks/campaign books will be hard to achieve if everybody knows the rules are going to change soon.

I would expect a couple of months of AoS & boxed games leading up to a big fanfare around 40K 8th in early summer. Of course I could be wrong :smile:

As for the rules themselves, nothing there that really bothers me and one or two that excite me. So on balance happy enough. Although I am in the group of players who think that the current rules are playable - unless playing against a jerk in which case the rules are not the problem anyway.

/sign to all of it :D

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Vash
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Re: 8th edition

Post#22 » Mar 24 2017 12:53

Jefffar wrote:Well, if AP 2 equivalent will still negate all armour saves, it would be. -5.

AP 3 then is -4. AP 4 is -3, AP 5 is -2 and AP 6 -1.

But it could just as easily be AP - and 6 are 0, AP 5 is -1, AP 4 is -2, AP 3 is -3 and so on.


Yah, simply put thats the direct translation.
But on a deeper ground it won't end up that way.

With a modifier system, you can represent the weapons more accurately.
What I mean is, not all AP4 weapons will get -3 per default.

Looking at the 2nd ed stats and comparing them to Armageddon (boxed game releasing soon?), a boltgun has -1 and not -2 as you suggest.
Power swords, in 2nd ed, were -3 to save, so there was a chance for a space marine power armour to shake off the hit.

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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: 8th edition

Post#23 » Mar 24 2017 01:18

Yeah i don't think that there will be much that straight out has a modifier that completely ignores he kind of armor it would with the current rules. I bet most things that barely ignored armor in 7e will leave a 6+ or better in 8e.

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Bloodknife92
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Posts: 492

Re: 8th edition

Post#24 » Mar 24 2017 06:41

I have only 2 wishes with this edition.

Reduce the amount of reading that must be done, as I find in every single phase of a game, ESPECIALLY against amateur opponents, the rulebook and/or codexes are coming out. This really extends play time exponentially, making it hard to have a good, well paced game. I'm excited to know that they plan to approach this exact issue, from what I read, so that's really really REALLY good! I look forward to hour-2hour long games again, instead of having to plan an entire 6 hour block to play a game, which, as a father and university student, and soon-to-be nurse, I really can't produce on a regular basis :D

My other wish is that GW don't force me to pay a stupid amount of money for three books, when I'm really only going to use one. Sure, make the extra books available, but really? Force people to buy two dust collectors? That's disappointing. I love hard copy documents over digital copies ANYDAY, but I've had to use my friend's iPad with the digital rules because it was the more cost effective option. Please oh PLEASE GW don't do this again! It's hard enough convincing my wife to let me buy a Stormsurge :D

I'm not saying I have a hard life. Infact, I have a damn good one compared to some people in the world (I get to play this game, for one), but it could be made even easier :P
The days of goodly English is went

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Gragagrogog
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Posts: 315

Re: 8th edition

Post#25 » Mar 24 2017 08:52

Vash wrote:Yah, simply put thats the direct translation.
But on a deeper ground it won't end up that way.

With a modifier system, you can represent the weapons more accurately.
What I mean is, not all AP4 weapons will get -3 per default.

Looking at the 2nd ed stats and comparing them to Armageddon (boxed game releasing soon?), a boltgun has -1 and not -2 as you suggest.
Power swords, in 2nd ed, were -3 to save, so there was a chance for a space marine power armour to shake off the hit.


Ye I don't think there's a chance in hell AP4 weapons will get better than -1 modifier (you still want plasmas to be useful compared to MPs), that's assuming they don't completetely redo weapon characteristics or do things like -2+ (minus-two plus) save what I've seen last time I played fantasy...

As for wishlisting, I'd like some formations that include a combination of suits and vehicles and being actually good, instead of this "let's make the best formations include new models we want to sell" BS.

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Bloodknife92
Shas'La
Posts: 492

Re: 8th edition

Post#26 » Mar 24 2017 09:24

Gragagrogog wrote:As for wishlisting, I'd like some formations that include a combination of suits and vehicles and being actually good, instead of this "let's make the best formations include new models we want to sell" BS.


Now how financially beneficial would that be for GW? :P
The days of goodly English is went

GuidingOlive
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Posts: 50

Re: 8th edition

Post#27 » Mar 25 2017 02:44

So for more AoS-y Rend to AP Translations, speculation abound, I doubt that -4 Saves is going to be possible outside confluences of special rules. Therefore, in my mind, the AP goes something like this
AP-/6 = 0
AP5/4 =-1
AP3/2 =-2
AP1 =-3
This means that our plasma is actually a decent option against Fusion since the difference is much less based on doubling out. Now this probably isn't a direct translation and I fully expect weapons to change. The reason it isn't a direct translation is Tau gets pretty powerful when their weakest weapons are still -1. And really, the Assault Buff doesn't change anything for us getting charged. We're almost always going last and our lack of melee capabilities is already apparent so Power Fists are really always going to connect. However, it would fully solidify Tau as the premier Shooting Army since Scatter Lasers vs. Burst Cannons starts leaning in favor of the BCs (assuming Rending the special rule gets changed to 6's = -2 Modifiers).

Now outside of speculation, I'm excited for the new changes. So long as they allow Characters to stay inside units (get on that AoS) I have no issues so far. It is rumored that they will cut the rulebook down to 30 pages which is fantastic. Yeah a lot of rules will be doled out to individual datasheets but it'll be much easier to digest. As for the Assault buff, I don't like it personally (Power Klaws, Power Fists, Thunder Hammers, all become pretty strong) but I think it's absolutely needed for the game. Porting Rend from AoS is probably the best thing they could have done. I think no one enjoys just removing models w/o any feeling of chance (I'm reminded of using an Overcharged Ion Accelerator w/ markered Ignores Cover on a Command Squad and removing them all because they didn't have Invulns). Also porting Battleshock is so nice (so long as most things actually have to take it *stares at Fearless*). But these rules also don't yet cover the biggest problem the game currently has; the Psychic Phase. I'll be much more excited to see those rules. Oh also, praying for the 9" movement Riptide.

Note: I am a competitive player and what may be enjoyable to me may not necessarily be so to the general populace.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2635

Re: 8th edition

Post#28 » Mar 25 2017 06:01

GuidingOlive wrote:So for more AoS-y Rend to AP Translations, speculation abound, I doubt that -4 Saves is going to be possible outside confluences of special rules. Therefore, in my mind, the AP goes something like this
AP-/6 = 0
AP5/4 =-1
AP3/2 =-2
AP1 =-3
This means that our plasma is actually a decent option against Fusion since the difference is much less based on doubling out. Now this probably isn't a direct translation and I fully expect weapons to change. The reason it isn't a direct translation is Tau gets pretty powerful when their weakest weapons are still -1. And really, the Assault Buff doesn't change anything for us getting charged. We're almost always going last and our lack of melee capabilities is already apparent so Power Fists are really always going to connect. However, it would fully solidify Tau as the premier Shooting Army since Scatter Lasers vs. Burst Cannons starts leaning in favor of the BCs (assuming Rending the special rule gets changed to 6's = -2 Modifiers).

Now outside of speculation, I'm excited for the new changes. So long as they allow Characters to stay inside units (get on that AoS) I have no issues so far. It is rumored that they will cut the rulebook down to 30 pages which is fantastic. Yeah a lot of rules will be doled out to individual datasheets but it'll be much easier to digest. As for the Assault buff, I don't like it personally (Power Klaws, Power Fists, Thunder Hammers, all become pretty strong) but I think it's absolutely needed for the game. Porting Rend from AoS is probably the best thing they could have done. I think no one enjoys just removing models w/o any feeling of chance (I'm reminded of using an Overcharged Ion Accelerator w/ markered Ignores Cover on a Command Squad and removing them all because they didn't have Invulns). Also porting Battleshock is so nice (so long as most things actually have to take it *stares at Fearless*). But these rules also don't yet cover the biggest problem the game currently has; the Psychic Phase. I'll be much more excited to see those rules. Oh also, praying for the 9" movement Riptide.

Note: I am a competitive player and what may be enjoyable to me may not necessarily be so to the general populace.

Actually it would buff some rare Tau lists even considering our Fusion Blade Commander would be able to attack first against any unit when he gets the charge....which is actually pretty scary with S8 AP1 attacks. :D

I really really hope that Burst Cannons will have a better rending than Pulse Weapons no matter what. So if Pulse Rifles have -0, they should have -1. If Pulse Rilfes have -1, they should have -2 and so on. It would make them actually worth fielding again.
It has absolutely nothing to do with me fielding 4 Stealth suit units in my list or anything. :P

I'm unsure about the characters inside units. Sure they'd need something to protect them since 40k is way more shootier but it would prevent stupid deathstars lists. I hate deathstars with a passion. Even more than pure gunlines. Bringing a deathstar list should allow your opponent to drop a brick on your models. >_>

Keep in mind we don't know everything about the assault buff. It's VERY likely that unwieldy weapons are still going to attack last.

Not sure about Battleshock. I think it could be done better than in AoS and hope we don't get 1:1 the AoS version of it.

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Jefffar
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Posts: 1008

Re: 8th edition

Post#29 » Mar 25 2017 08:00

Being able to attack first is actually pretty huge for Tau. The WS chart isn't kind to us, but our Initiative Stat is the killer in combat, we generally only go after the other guys have decimated our unit.

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Vector Strike
Shas'La
Posts: 932

Re: 8th edition

Post#30 » Mar 25 2017 08:14

Jefffar wrote:Being able to attack first is actually pretty huge for Tau. The WS chart isn't kind to us, but our Initiative Stat is the killer in combat, we generally only go after the other guys have decimated our unit.


And so the dream of Muay Tau lives on!

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Unicornsilovethem
Shas'Saal
Posts: 278

Re: 8th edition

Post#31 » Mar 25 2017 08:57

I hope we don't get a static subtraction on armor save rolls as the new AP system. Because honestly, a weapon that used to be AP6 or AP5 shouldn't have *any* effect on 2+ armor. Whereas, as I mentioned earlier, an AP3 weapon should be able to do something against 2+ armor, but ideally not reduce it to 6+ armor.

Jefffar wrote:Being able to attack first is actually pretty huge for Tau. The WS chart isn't kind to us, but our Initiative Stat is the killer in combat, we generally only go after the other guys have decimated our unit.

I disagree, the WS chart is very kind to us. Because nobody ever has a better chance than 3+ to hit us, and we never have a worse chance than 5+. Aun'va only needs 5+ to hit Deathleaper, Be'lakor, Skarbrand or a Solitaire which is more than a little ridiculous.

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Panzer
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Re: 8th edition

Post#32 » Mar 25 2017 10:14

I think you will get disappointed then, Unicornsilovethem. Doesn't seem like the direction GW is going...and i'm totally fine with that tbh. ^^

And yeah the WS table is very kind to us. What really breaks our neck in close combat though is not having any weapon with AP and low amount of attacks on top of having low Initiative and that only one of those will change in 8th. :P

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Unicornsilovethem
Shas'Saal
Posts: 278

Re: 8th edition

Post#33 » Mar 25 2017 01:09

You don't find it the least bit silly that a weapon which just has enough penetration power to bypass a Fire Warrior's combat armor, also degrades the armor of a Riptide to be no more effective than that of a Pathfinder?

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Gragagrogog
Shas'La
Posts: 315

Re: 8th edition

Post#34 » Mar 25 2017 02:17

Well, that's why we think the modifier won't ever be better than -3 and that would be on plasma/melta weapons. Also I think Riptide should be represented as a walker vehicle, if you swap a riptide for a termie, your analogy doesn't seem so unrealistic.

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Neffarious
Shas
Posts: 17

Re: 8th edition

Post#35 » Mar 25 2017 04:40

Panzer wrote: What really breaks our neck in close combat though is not having any weapon with AP and low amount of attacks on top of having low Initiative and that only one of those will change in 8th. :P


FUSION BLADES!!!!!
:D You can't spell slaughter without laughter :D

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TauMan
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Re: 8th edition

Post#36 » Mar 25 2017 06:43

Sooo thankful I never purchased the rule book for 7th edition! (Still want my money back for 6th edition!). Have no idea if this is going to be good or bad, as my worry is how badly the fluff will get mangled.

Neffarious wrote:FUSION BLADES!!!!!

Uh, um...Fusion Blades: The willing suspension of disbelief has been revoked! (And my army is a Farsight army!)

TauMan
PS Plasma cutters have been part of the lore of WH40k since at least 2nd edition. Squats had plasma cutters as mining tools (no rule set - just fluff). So why didn't we get a Plasma Rifle/Plasma Cutter weapon option. STR-10 AP-1 anybody? TM
Viro’los gu brath!
N.Y.A.B.X.T.T.

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Neffarious
Shas
Posts: 17

Re: 8th edition

Post#37 » Mar 25 2017 09:49

TauMan wrote: So why didn't we get a Plasma Rifle/Plasma Cutter weapon option. STR-10 AP-1 anybody? TM


Because we got ...

FUSION BLADES!!!!! They're Str 8 Ap 1 Armorbane and blind with a 1/6 chance to crap out for the rest of the game!!!!! Awesome!!!!!

And now I will require you to reinstate the suspension of disbelief you so rudely revoked.

From the moment I saw Commander Farsight brandishing the Dawnblade, I dreamed about having twin beam swords on my custom Mobile-Suit Crisis-Suit.

My group and I enjoy "forging a narrative" more than just building a list and rolling the dice. For us it is telling stories and making up characters to fuel our imagination that keep us engaged in the hobby. Our games are more like sessions of a tabletop RPG than a wargame; they are part of an ever-growing story told by the players set against the backdrop of 40K.

I made a fusion blade commander (with a backstory I will consider submitting to your Seeds of Life project) who bravely faced down a Knight Titan, so ... it CAN be done, and I appreciate that GW has rewarded him for his valiant effort by making it easier for him to continue doing so. Although that begs the question ... will Thunder-hammers and Power-fists now strike first as well? That's a scary thought.

Anyway, I am most excited about the Army Selection bonuses from the Command Points system. I don't know what they will be, and I hope it's not just a half-baked attempt to get more people to buy Codexes so they can mine them for fluff induced buffs to their armies; but I like the idea of fluffy crunch ... or is that crunchy fluff?

I am curious about the new proposed Morale/Leadership rules. While I embrace the minimization of Morale Saves and rolls to rally, a 1D6 + casualties > Leadership that causes you to take additional losses seems harsh.
:D You can't spell slaughter without laughter :D

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Jefffar
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Posts: 1008

Re: 8th edition

Post#38 » Mar 25 2017 10:58

I would expect that Unweildy will have some sort of negative effect on the timing of the strike, though when, they will get to strike is unpredictable with certainty at this stage.

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