The run to 8th edition

Use this area for all discussions of the "gaming" aspect of 40K/Tau.
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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#631 » May 18 2017 11:06

What Ricordis said.
Sure they could have the bulky keyword but it wouldn't be a special rule that lets them count for 2-3 like in 7th but rather it would be noted on the Devilfish datasheet that he can't carry bulky units etc.
However at that point it would be the same as simply using the battlesuit keyword instead so they are most likely just gonna use that instead.

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Unicornsilovethem
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#632 » May 19 2017 01:58

Vector Strike wrote:GW just finished a Q&A about the new edition. This link has an unofficial summary:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/p ... ge#9370854

Confirms that Drop pods, and their content, must also deploy 9" away. Not looking good for our fusion. Although I guess to be fair, being out of melta range seems to be a much smaller penalty in 8th than in 7th, so maybe there's no cause for concern. Too lazy to do the math but googling says that "2d6 take higher" is 4.47 in expectation, which is just below the expected value of 1+D6. So honestly, melta rule should probably be changed.

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Gragagrogog
Shas'La
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#633 » May 19 2017 03:14

Unicornsilovethem wrote: Too lazy to do the math but googling says that "2d6 take higher" is 4.47 in expectation, which is just below the expected value of 1+D6. So honestly, melta rule should probably be changed.


That's correct. Though the advantage is not much in the average, but in the probability distribution, it really gets the tails of low results down compared to a hypothetical D6+1 which has the same average, at the cost of lower maximum value ofc, which is likely to overkill anyway:
Image

Ricordis
Shas'La
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#634 » May 19 2017 04:32

I favor lower Damage I can count on instead of possible high damage values which also can horribly fail.

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Unicornsilovethem
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#635 » May 19 2017 05:05

Gragagrogog wrote:
Unicornsilovethem wrote: Too lazy to do the math but googling says that "2d6 take higher" is 4.47 in expectation, which is just below the expected value of 1+D6. So honestly, melta rule should probably be changed.


That's correct. Though the advantage is not much in the average, but in the probability distribution, it really gets the tails of low results down compared to a hypothetical D6+1 which has the same average, at the cost of lower maximum value ofc, which is likely to overkill anyway:
Image


But the more individual guns you shoot, the more likely it is that their sum tends to the expectation. And it's going to be pretty unlikely that you're firing just one melta shot, especially when it comes our suits that now carry 3 guns. We should realistically expect to shoot 4, 6 or even more meltas at the same target, which really diminishes the benefit of being within half range.

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Jefffar
Shas'Vre
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#636 » May 19 2017 05:43

We are also thinking in old paradigms here.

It used to be that getting a fusion blaster within 9 inches, beating the target's AV and then rolling a 5+ on the damage chart was our best way to kill high AV vehicles.

In 8th Ed, high toughness, high wounds models are the targets of the fusion blaster. These targets will not be destroyed by a single lucky hit, but instead will go down to the weight of repeated hits depleting their wound pool. So the roll twice and pick higher result, while a nice boost, isn't essential to the working of the fusion blaster as being able to roll 2D6 for penetration was.

Also, the Fusion Blaster isn't going to be the only way to reliably injure those high end models any more. Heavy Rail Rifles (baring some unexpected special rule or nerf) are going to be just as likely to successfully wound targets as fusion blasters. Against most former vehicles Ion Cannons and Ion Accelerators are probably going to be as deadly as Fusion Blasters (if not more due to the way the blast rule now works). The HYMP and Missile Pod are also likely to be no slouch at putting a lot of wounds on things they couldn't even hurt under the AV system.

So the sky isn't falling. Instead we're seeing something we haven't seen from T'au for years. Anti-vehicle capability distributed across our army, instead of clustered in suicide crisis suits.

Honestly, I think the go to Crisis Suit weapons this edition will be Burst Cannon, Plasma Rifle and Cyclic Ion Blaster.

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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#637 » May 19 2017 06:02

Missile Pods look very promising as well with their d3 damage.

Ricordis
Shas'La
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#638 » May 19 2017 06:03

With split fire on any unit (and I hope our multitrackers will alow us to fire different weapons at different targets) we have faaar less rock-paper-scissor situations.

"Oh, there is a unit of Anti Vehicle suits. I charge them with my UnitA because I don't have to fear them."
"Hahaaa! If have another unit of Anti-UnitA here!"
"Good I brought some Anti-Anti-UnitAs over there."

*snore*...boring.

I'd like to see very mobile suits which fry lefthanded some close enemies with flamers (Anti charge due autohitting).
While shooting their right-wrist-mounted Plasma Rifle at another target.
A shoulder mounted MissilePod or Burst Cannon might give some hits to another unit which would otherwise be wasted. (Reminds me of Iron Patriot)
While the other factions are mostly bound to a specific role for their units we might mix and match and create deadly danger zones for anyone.

It would be funny to see other players sticking to their old behaviour and losing one game after another because the can't adapt to the new rules.

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Unicornsilovethem
Shas'Saal
Posts: 278

Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#639 » May 19 2017 06:39

Panzer wrote:Missile Pods look very promising as well with their d3 damage.

That's a good point, and I did some calculations. A Leman Russ has T8 and 3+ save. We know Missile Pods have Ap-1 and D3 damage - we don't know their S value, but assuming it's within 5-7 they will wound on 5+. We also don't know how many shots they have; I'm assuming 2 like current edition. Furthermore I'm assuming perfect accuracy on all guns, since it's just the same "To Hit" modifier on all weapon effects so I might as well ignore it.

A Missile Pod will then do 2 (shots) * 1/3 (to wound) * 1/2 (3+, Ap-1) * 2 (D3 wounds) = 0.67 expected wounds. A fusion blaster out of range will do 1 * 1/2 * 1 * 3.5 = 1.75 wounds, and in range it does 2.24. MPs, with their much greater range and viability against blobs, might indeed be a viable alternative when you don't know you're up against high T models. Just taking a melta is a greater upgrade than bringing it in close range.

Giving meltas +1 to wound in half range would drastically improve them and give a reason to get close: they wound T5-7 on 2+, T8 on 3+, T9-T15 on 4+ and anything above on 5+.

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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#640 » May 19 2017 07:35

Ricordis wrote:With split fire on any unit (and I hope our multitrackers will alow us to fire different weapons at different targets) we have faaar less rock-paper-scissor situations.

"Oh, there is a unit of Anti Vehicle suits. I charge them with my UnitA because I don't have to fear them."
"Hahaaa! If have another unit of Anti-UnitA here!"
"Good I brought some Anti-Anti-UnitAs over there."

*snore*...boring.

I'd like to see very mobile suits which fry lefthanded some close enemies with flamers (Anti charge due autohitting).
While shooting their right-wrist-mounted Plasma Rifle at another target.
A shoulder mounted MissilePod or Burst Cannon might give some hits to another unit which would otherwise be wasted. (Reminds me of Iron Patriot)
While the other factions are mostly bound to a specific role for their units we might mix and match and create deadly danger zones for anyone.

It would be funny to see other players sticking to their old behaviour and losing one game after another because the can't adapt to the new rules.

That's nothing new though. We could do that the whole time thanks to Target Locks. It's just not as efficient as dedicating a unit to one task.

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Vector Strike
Shas'La
Posts: 880

Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#641 » May 19 2017 08:00

Guys, we already know how melta works. No point in guessing what will change on them.
Image

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Shas'El One Ronin
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Posts: 32

Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#642 » May 19 2017 08:25

So I put together this spreadsheet based on the information we know and a healthy dose of educated speculation. Some of the stats I have a lot of confidence in, some are really just pure guesswork. But all in all, it gives a decent idea of how many HITS (not shots, BS is not involved in this calculation) it would take to kill a Leman Russ under 8th Edition.

If I got the stats correct, it looks like we will still need lots of shots from even our more powerful guns to kill a single LR. If anyone wants a copy of the actual spreadsheet to look at/check my calculations, just PM me.

Image

Again, I want to emphasize that this is heavily speculative. We know for a fact that Missile Pods have AP-1 and do a D3 damage, and we know that Meltaguns are S8, AP-4, and do a D6 damage (2d6 at half range), and that is about it. The rest is just educated guesswork based on stats in 7th edition.
"Molon Labe." -Leonidas

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555ea
Shas'Saal
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#643 » May 19 2017 09:12

Take a look at Leman Russ' battle canon and will be obvious, that Nova Charged Ion well be D6 hits with D3 damage, without any known ordance bonus (for now).

The funny thing is that power fist are D3 damage with -1 to hit, they are less powerful than they are in 7th, comparing to a lascannon. The unfunny thing is chainswords, though.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/201 ... ge-post-4/

By the way, how do imagine a Knight hitting Chaos Lord with his chainsword ? It's like that high, he does not have enough arm length ? :D

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Shas'El One Ronin
Shas'Saal
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#644 » May 19 2017 09:22

555ea wrote:Take a look at Leman Russ' battle canon and will be obvious, that Nova Charged Ion well be D6 hits with D3 damage, without any known ordance bonus (for now).


Technically, the Battle Cannon is Heavy D6, which means it gets a D6 shots (not all of which are likely to hit). The Nova Charged Ion Accelerator may well get a D6 shots, but shot-count/hit % is beyond the scope of what I was speculating on.
"Molon Labe." -Leonidas

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Unusualsuspect
Kroot'Ui
Posts: 578

Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#645 » May 19 2017 09:38

Shas'El One Ronin wrote:
555ea wrote:Take a look at Leman Russ' battle canon and will be obvious, that Nova Charged Ion well be D6 hits with D3 damage, without any known ordance bonus (for now).


Technically, the Battle Cannon is Heavy D6, which means it gets a D6 shots (not all of which are likely to hit). The Nova Charged Ion Accelerator may well get a D6 shots, but shot-count/hit % is beyond the scope of what I was speculating on.


Mostly agreeable translations, though I'd posit the Overcharged Ion Accelerator will be doing 1d3 damage (it is a large blast and so getting 1d6 shots, so 1d6 damage seems high IMO - the Nova Charge may be a different story, depending on what Nova Charging risks in the new edition) and the Railgun Submunition will almost certainly NOT be doing d6 damage per hit (in fact, I think it won't be doing more than 1 damage).

I also wouldn't be surprised to see Plasma in the multiple damage category (either 1d3 or straight 2), and I think you're underestimating the damage Railguns will inflict (I'm guessing either flat damages like 2/3/4, or 1d2/1d3/1d6 rolling 2 dice and picking the highest at all ranges).

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Shas'El One Ronin
Shas'Saal
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#646 » May 19 2017 09:47

Unusualsuspect wrote:
Shas'El One Ronin wrote:
555ea wrote:Take a look at Leman Russ' battle canon and will be obvious, that Nova Charged Ion well be D6 hits with D3 damage, without any known ordance bonus (for now).


Technically, the Battle Cannon is Heavy D6, which means it gets a D6 shots (not all of which are likely to hit). The Nova Charged Ion Accelerator may well get a D6 shots, but shot-count/hit % is beyond the scope of what I was speculating on.


Mostly agreeable translations, though I'd posit the Overcharged Ion Accelerator will be doing 1d3 damage (it is a large blast and so getting 1d6 shots, so 1d6 damage seems high IMO - the Nova Charge may be a different story, depending on what Nova Charging risks in the new edition)


Thanks for the kudos. I was working with the assumption that Small Blasts will get a D3 damage and Large Blasts will get a D6 damage. Again, it's guesswork, and we may very likely see completely different stats for those weapons. And yes, a D6 shots with a D6 damage would probably be a little OP for the Ion Accel.


The Railgun Submunition will almost certainly NOT be doing d6 damage per hit (in fact, I think it won't be doing more than 1 damage).


Maybe, but you need a way to represent it being able to hit hit multiple targets. Again, I'm going with Large Blast = 1d6 damage. It may very well get more shots and just do 1 damage per hit. We have to wait and see before we know for sure.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see Plasma in the multiple damage category (either 1d3 or straight 2), and I think you're underestimating the damage Railguns will inflict (I'm guessing either flat damages like 2/3/4, or 1d2/1d3/1d6 rolling 2 dice and picking the highest at all ranges).


All good points. I think fixed damage values for Rail weapons would make a lot of sense, but that is getting way out beyond what I am comfortable speculating on. As more info is released, we will get a better picture of what is to come.
"Molon Labe." -Leonidas

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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#647 » May 19 2017 10:21

Shas'El One Ronin wrote:
The Railgun Submunition will almost certainly NOT be doing d6 damage per hit (in fact, I think it won't be doing more than 1 damage).


Maybe, but you need a way to represent it being able to hit hit multiple targets. Again, I'm going with Large Blast = 1d6 damage. It may very well get more shots and just do 1 damage per hit. We have to wait and see before we know for sure.

I think you got a bit confused here. d6 damage is not the same thing as d6 hits. Blasts do multiple hits and only the strong ones multiple damage on top of that.

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Unusualsuspect
Kroot'Ui
Posts: 578

Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#648 » May 19 2017 10:23

You seem to be operating under an odd understanding of how damage works in the new WH40k.

Damage never applies across models - if your attack deals DX damage, it can only ever do damage to a single model.

The one large blast we've seen does 1d6 hits and 1d3 damage - the Battlecannon, which should be strongly indicative for speculated Ion Accelerator and Ion Cannon Overcharge stats.

The fact that even the Battlecannon (undeniably a more potently-destructive weapon than the Submunitions) is only doing 1d3 damage makes it even less likely that Submunitions will do 1d6.

We've only seen one weapon that was formerly small blast - Frag Grenades (which surprisingly also got d6 hits).

If we're going to speculate, we should probably presume d6 hits with 1 or 1d3 damage for Large Blast weapons unless they're large blasts that are supposed to be at or near D strength.

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