The run to 8th edition

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Vector Strike
Shas'La
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#641 » May 19 2017 08:00

Guys, we already know how melta works. No point in guessing what will change on them.
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Shas'El One Ronin
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#642 » May 19 2017 08:25

So I put together this spreadsheet based on the information we know and a healthy dose of educated speculation. Some of the stats I have a lot of confidence in, some are really just pure guesswork. But all in all, it gives a decent idea of how many HITS (not shots, BS is not involved in this calculation) it would take to kill a Leman Russ under 8th Edition.

If I got the stats correct, it looks like we will still need lots of shots from even our more powerful guns to kill a single LR. If anyone wants a copy of the actual spreadsheet to look at/check my calculations, just PM me.

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Again, I want to emphasize that this is heavily speculative. We know for a fact that Missile Pods have AP-1 and do a D3 damage, and we know that Meltaguns are S8, AP-4, and do a D6 damage (2d6 at half range), and that is about it. The rest is just educated guesswork based on stats in 7th edition.
"Molon Labe." -Leonidas

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555ea
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#643 » May 19 2017 09:12

Take a look at Leman Russ' battle canon and will be obvious, that Nova Charged Ion well be D6 hits with D3 damage, without any known ordance bonus (for now).

The funny thing is that power fist are D3 damage with -1 to hit, they are less powerful than they are in 7th, comparing to a lascannon. The unfunny thing is chainswords, though.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/201 ... ge-post-4/

By the way, how do imagine a Knight hitting Chaos Lord with his chainsword ? It's like that high, he does not have enough arm length ? :D

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Shas'El One Ronin
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#644 » May 19 2017 09:22

555ea wrote:Take a look at Leman Russ' battle canon and will be obvious, that Nova Charged Ion well be D6 hits with D3 damage, without any known ordance bonus (for now).


Technically, the Battle Cannon is Heavy D6, which means it gets a D6 shots (not all of which are likely to hit). The Nova Charged Ion Accelerator may well get a D6 shots, but shot-count/hit % is beyond the scope of what I was speculating on.
"Molon Labe." -Leonidas

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Unusualsuspect
Kroot'Ui
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#645 » May 19 2017 09:38

Shas'El One Ronin wrote:
555ea wrote:Take a look at Leman Russ' battle canon and will be obvious, that Nova Charged Ion well be D6 hits with D3 damage, without any known ordance bonus (for now).


Technically, the Battle Cannon is Heavy D6, which means it gets a D6 shots (not all of which are likely to hit). The Nova Charged Ion Accelerator may well get a D6 shots, but shot-count/hit % is beyond the scope of what I was speculating on.


Mostly agreeable translations, though I'd posit the Overcharged Ion Accelerator will be doing 1d3 damage (it is a large blast and so getting 1d6 shots, so 1d6 damage seems high IMO - the Nova Charge may be a different story, depending on what Nova Charging risks in the new edition) and the Railgun Submunition will almost certainly NOT be doing d6 damage per hit (in fact, I think it won't be doing more than 1 damage).

I also wouldn't be surprised to see Plasma in the multiple damage category (either 1d3 or straight 2), and I think you're underestimating the damage Railguns will inflict (I'm guessing either flat damages like 2/3/4, or 1d2/1d3/1d6 rolling 2 dice and picking the highest at all ranges).

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Shas'El One Ronin
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#646 » May 19 2017 09:47

Unusualsuspect wrote:
Shas'El One Ronin wrote:
555ea wrote:Take a look at Leman Russ' battle canon and will be obvious, that Nova Charged Ion well be D6 hits with D3 damage, without any known ordance bonus (for now).


Technically, the Battle Cannon is Heavy D6, which means it gets a D6 shots (not all of which are likely to hit). The Nova Charged Ion Accelerator may well get a D6 shots, but shot-count/hit % is beyond the scope of what I was speculating on.


Mostly agreeable translations, though I'd posit the Overcharged Ion Accelerator will be doing 1d3 damage (it is a large blast and so getting 1d6 shots, so 1d6 damage seems high IMO - the Nova Charge may be a different story, depending on what Nova Charging risks in the new edition)


Thanks for the kudos. I was working with the assumption that Small Blasts will get a D3 damage and Large Blasts will get a D6 damage. Again, it's guesswork, and we may very likely see completely different stats for those weapons. And yes, a D6 shots with a D6 damage would probably be a little OP for the Ion Accel.


The Railgun Submunition will almost certainly NOT be doing d6 damage per hit (in fact, I think it won't be doing more than 1 damage).


Maybe, but you need a way to represent it being able to hit hit multiple targets. Again, I'm going with Large Blast = 1d6 damage. It may very well get more shots and just do 1 damage per hit. We have to wait and see before we know for sure.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see Plasma in the multiple damage category (either 1d3 or straight 2), and I think you're underestimating the damage Railguns will inflict (I'm guessing either flat damages like 2/3/4, or 1d2/1d3/1d6 rolling 2 dice and picking the highest at all ranges).


All good points. I think fixed damage values for Rail weapons would make a lot of sense, but that is getting way out beyond what I am comfortable speculating on. As more info is released, we will get a better picture of what is to come.
"Molon Labe." -Leonidas

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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#647 » May 19 2017 10:21

Shas'El One Ronin wrote:
The Railgun Submunition will almost certainly NOT be doing d6 damage per hit (in fact, I think it won't be doing more than 1 damage).


Maybe, but you need a way to represent it being able to hit hit multiple targets. Again, I'm going with Large Blast = 1d6 damage. It may very well get more shots and just do 1 damage per hit. We have to wait and see before we know for sure.

I think you got a bit confused here. d6 damage is not the same thing as d6 hits. Blasts do multiple hits and only the strong ones multiple damage on top of that.

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Unusualsuspect
Kroot'Ui
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#648 » May 19 2017 10:23

You seem to be operating under an odd understanding of how damage works in the new WH40k.

Damage never applies across models - if your attack deals DX damage, it can only ever do damage to a single model.

The one large blast we've seen does 1d6 hits and 1d3 damage - the Battlecannon, which should be strongly indicative for speculated Ion Accelerator and Ion Cannon Overcharge stats.

The fact that even the Battlecannon (undeniably a more potently-destructive weapon than the Submunitions) is only doing 1d3 damage makes it even less likely that Submunitions will do 1d6.

We've only seen one weapon that was formerly small blast - Frag Grenades (which surprisingly also got d6 hits).

If we're going to speculate, we should probably presume d6 hits with 1 or 1d3 damage for Large Blast weapons unless they're large blasts that are supposed to be at or near D strength.

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Shas'El One Ronin
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#649 » May 19 2017 10:34

Thanks for the feedback. I agree, I was totally misunderstanding how "Damage" works in 8th Edition.

What confused me the most is that the Battle Cannon is listed as "HEAVY D6". In 7th edition, this type of notation means that said weapon gets a D6 shots. I'm guessing by the feedback you all provided that is not the case in 8th Edition. Does "Heavy D6" means that the weapon gets only one shot, but if the "To hit" roll is successful, the target unit suffers a D6 hits?

Does that apply across the board? The Twin Linked Heavy Bolter is listed as "HEAVY 6". Does that mean you only make one "to hit" roll, but if you succeed, the weapon inflicts 6 hits on the targeted unit?

I've read through the posted articles, but I haven't found where it clarifies the difference between "SHOTS" and "HITS" in regards to a weapon's profile.
"Molon Labe." -Leonidas

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Shas'El One Ronin
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#650 » May 19 2017 10:48

Nevermind, I found it.

"Whereas once these weapons would have used a template, in the new Warhammer 40,000, these are resolved much faster by just using a random number of shots."


Okay, so it looks like maybe a Large Blast would be a D6 SHOTS, and a Small Blast might be a D3 SHOTS. So that makes those weapons very heavily BS dependent again.

I think I am going to abandon the spreadsheet for now. We don't have enough info to know how many shots all of our weapons are likely to get, so I would just be blind guessing.

It should be very interesting to see how Regular vs Overcharged Ion weapons will work under this new mode.
"Molon Labe." -Leonidas

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Pyropower
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#651 » May 19 2017 11:09

Imperial Knights focus is out:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/201 ... l-knights/

Not too sure how I feel about it so far, they seem to be great at range and CC with no real weaknesses. Especially with a 360 Ion Shield
I am happy to see my Trygon might be dishing out some good damage though.

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KuroRyu
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#652 » May 19 2017 11:16

Is any one else actually excited about the prospect of close combat being worth investing in?

So many players I've seen saying dedicated cc units aren't even worth putting on the table these days. If the balance between ranged and close combat is restored a bit I'm looking forward to seeing more variety on the table than whatever marine formation puts out the most shots for the least points.

Also kroot might find more use than being a speed bump or pretending to be snipers. I'm not naiive, I know they'll never be stellar cc fighters but i'd expect them to be able to take on a stock tactical marine squad and have a good chance of living to tell the tale.

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Pyropower
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#653 » May 19 2017 11:19

Well as a long term Nid player I am extremely happy about the return of close combat. My guys were already pretty good at it, but getting there was always my challenge especially with so many low AP weapons out there.
As someone who is just picking up Tau because I want a new army. Kind of scared as all I hear is that Tau get chewed up in combat. Gonna keep as mobile as possible and run away from those khorne beserkers

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Quartz
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#654 » May 19 2017 11:38

I played a massive 15,000 pt a side battle in the summer which was Tau, Nids and Orks vs SM and IG. Aside from being a great weekend I did find that a mob of 150 boyz did fail when up against a 15 man terminator squad that deepstriked next to them whereas the Nids did quite well getting all up close and personal. It was a bit of "who could shoot the biggest gun" though and I think that game would be great to re-play in 8th as our (the Xenos) side had the majority of the cc units.
We gave them a chance at the greater good, now they die

fraction64
Shas'Saal
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#655 » May 19 2017 12:12

Well if you show up with 5 supremacy suits and they are still broken strong for their points (assuming you can fit them in) then your opponent can just say "naw I'm good " and play someone else. Though it is entirely possible that it has been balanced well enough against other units that almost any army would actually stand a chance for the same points.
On another note I am interested in the replacement for stomps the knight article mentioned and how that will work for the stormsurge.

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Unicornsilovethem
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#656 » May 19 2017 01:27

fraction64 wrote:Well if you show up with 5 supremacy suits and they are still broken strong for their points (assuming you can fit them in) then your opponent can just say "naw I'm good " and play someone else. Though it is entirely possible that it has been balanced well enough against other units that almost any army would actually stand a chance for the same points.
On another note I am interested in the replacement for stomps the knight article mentioned and how that will work for the stormsurge.

Sure they can say that. But if they say it in a tournament, they'll lose points, and the 5xLOW player will advance without even having to try.

This new ed was advertised as being much better balanced than previous ones. While maybe not specifically stated, that should include diminishing the reliance on LOW choices and making regular Infantry more useful than before. Today's news seems to be a step in the wrong direction because it allows any army to bring 5 arbitrary LOWs. They've already told us how you need 500 lasgun shots to bring down a Gorkanaut, what the hell are those armies supposed to do against 5 even bigger guys?

fraction64
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#657 » May 19 2017 01:37

Well I would bring more than lasguns for one. A varied army should be able to deal with these guys much better than it used to. Now all weapons can hurt them and quite a few that were garbage against them are now pretty good. Even a heavy bolter is a threat to a knight so I don't see them stomping over entire armies anymore. Plus a knight in its last damage catagory is kind of a joke. You would feel bad for it as he limps across the field firing blindly like an ork. Please just put it out of its misery already. :::(

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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: The run to 8th edition

Post#658 » May 19 2017 01:46

Unicornsilovethem wrote:This new ed was advertised as being much better balanced than previous ones. While maybe not specifically stated, that should include diminishing the reliance on LOW choices and making regular Infantry more useful than before. Today's news seems to be a step in the wrong direction because it allows any army to bring 5 arbitrary LOWs. They've already told us how you need 500 lasgun shots to bring down a Gorkanaut, what the hell are those armies supposed to do against 5 even bigger guys?

Use something else than a 100% Lasgun infantry army in tournaments? :D

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