8th Edition - Tidewall Fortifications

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Elphiel
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8th Edition - Tidewall Fortifications

Post#1 » Jun 11 2017 05:54

So with the new Edition, our Tidewall Elements became pretty much transports. From a rule point of view, we don't actually need to place the models on them anymore and so get rid of any limitations of placeable space. We can still put model on them but those sever merely the purpose of display. But now new questions turn up.

1. Can bubble aura buffs like from Carde Fireblade or Ethereal still work if the models are embarked in a transport? If so, will their aura be measured from any point of the transports in this example tidewalls hull like stated in the open-top special rule, because by rules we don't have to put the model anywhere visible on the tidewall itself? That would expand the aura a lot.

2. The Droneport drone rules state that an infantry model can activate the four drones and doing so, these drones get the same BS the activating infantry model has. How long will this run? As long as the Infantry that activated them is still embarked? As long as the Drones stay in range of the droneport? Or simply for the rest of the game? If its like this, the Droneport would provide us with 4 BS2+ markerdrones if activated by a cadre fireblade for example.

3. If i understand it correct, as long as the units are embarked on the Tidewall, they cant be targeted directly. The droneport or any other tidewall segment needs to be destroyed first.

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azlanpower
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Re: 8th Edition - Tidewall Fortifications

Post#2 » Jun 11 2017 07:10

1. Needs to be FAQ
2. Yup. Discussed in other threads like "Tau 8th edition synergy and combo" topic. Focused ML vs multi source ML etc.
3. Yup.

Extra: very dissapointing fact is that when moving these transport (droneport or shieldline), no mentioned as units embarked in them being in stationary hence ML positioning can be quite tricky using this ML Tank as ML are heavy weapons which gets -1 to hit when move.

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nic
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Re: 8th Edition - Tidewall Fortifications

Post#3 » Jun 11 2017 07:15

Elphiel wrote:So with the new Edition, our Tidewall Elements became pretty much transports. From a rule point of view, we don't actually need to place the models on them anymore and so get rid of any limitations of placeable space. We can still put model on them but those sever merely the purpose of display. But now new questions turn up.

1. Can bubble aura buffs like from Carde Fireblade or Ethereal still work if the models are embarked in a transport? If so, will their aura be measured from any point of the transports in this example tidewalls hull like stated in the open-top special rule, because by rules we don't have to put the model anywhere visible on the tidewall itself? That would expand the aura a lot.

2. The Droneport drone rules state that an infantry model can activate the four drones and doing so, these drones get the same BS the activating infantry model has. How long will this run? As long as the Infantry that activated them is still embarked? As long as the Drones stay in range of the droneport? Or simply for the rest of the game? If its like this, the Droneport would provide us with 4 BS2+ markerdrones if activated by a cadre fireblade for example.

3. If i understand it correct, as long as the units are embarked on the Tidewall, they cant be targeted directly. The droneport or any other tidewall segment needs to be destroyed first.


1. No, they count as embarked and are not on the table for area buff purposes.

2. I would interpret this as taking the BS of the unit while it is still embarked but the drones can be anywhere on the table. Yes I think it is our one way of getting BS2+ marker drones.

3. It is a vehicle with embarked passengers for pretty much all purposes so the passengers cannot be attacked while on board.

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: 8th Edition - Tidewall Fortifications

Post#4 » Jun 11 2017 10:49

The core rules has a section that talks about auras and transports and says they do not work. However, what about targeted effects like the fireblade or darkstrider analyzer?

I've been using shield lines and gunrigs in the last few games I have had and have had decent success.

I put full breacher teams into the tidewalls (two tidewalls) and strikes inside the gunrig. The gunrig can put out pretty heavy firepower and does seem to earn its points. The tidewalls are surprisingly tanky and are amazing screening tools. Enemy models that are in combat with the tidewall can still be shot at from my other units. They essentially get stuck in combat because they have to fall back from the tidewall to get out of combat.

The walls themselves are only 70 points and they keep my breacher teams safe so they can put the hurt on without worry. My friends and I also interpret the passengers being able to fire overwatch and of course supporting fire while inside the transport, so they have become quite useful.

Of course, perhaps we have the rules wrong and we are playing this incorrectly. Either way the wall has been super useful and worth it IMO.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

Kilazar
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Re: 8th Edition - Tidewall Fortifications

Post#5 » Jun 13 2017 09:50

I would like to see the Tidewall faq'ed on the whole aura thing in such a way that models ON /embarked can be affected by our various drone aura's and the Fireblade. The purpose of the shieldine for example was to provide a weapons platform for a gun line. The gunline not being able to benefit from pulse accelerator or Fireblade is kind of weird.

I do however agree that aura's should in no way extend OUT from any piece of the shield line based on embarked models.

Yojimbob
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Re: 8th Edition - Tidewall Fortifications

Post#6 » Jun 20 2017 02:59

So from what I can interpret from the rules as is stated and how the keywords work with each other, Tidewalls VERY SPECIFICALLY say that "any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers." Since the tidewall has the T'au Empire and <Sept> keywords the extra shot buff given by a Fireblade WOULD work, however Ethereal and pulse accelerator buffs would not. It's all about the keyword interactions. This same thing applies for Ork Flash Gitz firing their Heavy weapons in a Battlewagon where they do not get the movement penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. Fairly deadly combo but I'm pretty certain this is how the interaction would work for us too.

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Elphiel
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Re: 8th Edition - Tidewall Fortifications

Post#7 » Jun 20 2017 04:30

OK thanks for all your views so far.
I tried my little Droneport in two games with a Fireblade for the altogether five 2+ markerlights and also put a minimum squad of Pathfinders with 3 overheating Ion Rifles with them. Distributing single markerlights around the area, also reduces the chance to melt the overheating ion rifles a lot. So far im quite pleased.

With the new possibility to get the Tidewall Shieldline without the round part i'll try to get my hand on a cheap Rampart set and use the two shield lines for a Firewarrior Gunline. Handing out some surprise mortal wounds while keeping the firewarriors mobile while not being restricted by that huge footprint the "old" full size Shieldline had, sounds quite funny and also fluffy. Sure no Volley Fire for these warriors but being a gunline I expect them to stay in the 15" - 30" range anyway.

Ash87
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Re: 8th Edition - Tidewall Fortifications

Post#8 » Jun 20 2017 04:54

Yojimbob wrote:So from what I can interpret from the rules as is stated and how the keywords work with each other, Tidewalls VERY SPECIFICALLY say that "any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers." Since the tidewall has the T'au Empire and <Sept> keywords the extra shot buff given by a Fireblade WOULD work, however Ethereal and pulse accelerator buffs would not. It's all about the keyword interactions. This same thing applies for Ork Flash Gitz firing their Heavy weapons in a Battlewagon where they do not get the movement penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. Fairly deadly combo but I'm pretty certain this is how the interaction would work for us too.


Okay, that makes sense.

It sounds like this might be a good way to deploy pathfinders then.

Yojimbob
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Re: 8th Edition - Tidewall Fortifications

Post#9 » Jun 21 2017 07:50

Sure no Volley Fire for these warriors but being a gunline I expect them to stay in the 15" - 30" range anyway.


IF Fireblades volleyfire is indeed a modifier, we will be able to receive this buff in ALL the tidewall pieces. Might be a big if though...

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Arka0415
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Re: 8th Edition - Tidewall Fortifications

Post#10 » Jun 21 2017 08:02

Yojimbob wrote:So from what I can interpret from the rules as is stated and how the keywords work with each other, Tidewalls VERY SPECIFICALLY say that "any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers." Since the tidewall has the T'au Empire and <Sept> keywords the extra shot buff given by a Fireblade WOULD work, however Ethereal and pulse accelerator buffs would not. It's all about the keyword interactions. This same thing applies for Ork Flash Gitz firing their Heavy weapons in a Battlewagon where they do not get the movement penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. Fairly deadly combo but I'm pretty certain this is how the interaction would work for us too.


This feels like a very stretched interpretation. If it was true that would be awesome but I have my doubts. Let's wait and see what other ATT users think.

Yojimbob
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Re: 8th Edition - Tidewall Fortifications

Post#11 » Jun 23 2017 09:53

I agree since for the MOST part nobody gets buffs in or out of transports BUT I could see the wall breaking that because it's SUPPOSED to be shot out of as a moving defense line, not like a traditional transport for most other armies. In my opinion RAW it is in fact allowed but only if the Fireblade Volleyfire is considered a modifier. I say it is because it is modifying the number of shots a gun can have and it specifically states which guns it modifies. But we shall see if there is a FAQ that comes down about it soon.

Jburli
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Re: 8th Edition - Tidewall Fortifications

Post#12 » Jun 27 2017 02:53

Edit: moved to tactics forum
Last edited by Jburli on Jun 29 2017 06:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Panzer
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Re: 8th Edition - Tidewall Fortifications

Post#13 » Jun 28 2017 01:16

Yojimbob wrote:I agree since for the MOST part nobody gets buffs in or out of transports BUT I could see the wall breaking that because it's SUPPOSED to be shot out of as a moving defense line, not like a traditional transport for most other armies. In my opinion RAW it is in fact allowed but only if the Fireblade Volleyfire is considered a modifier. I say it is because it is modifying the number of shots a gun can have and it specifically states which guns it modifies. But we shall see if there is a FAQ that comes down about it soon.

RAW it isn't though. It's an open topped vehicle and they don't have any special exceptions to aura abilities whatsoever.

Yojimbob
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Re: 8th Edition - Tidewall Fortifications

Post#14 » Jun 28 2017 09:09

So in the main rulebook it says "Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked." So RAW it states "unless specifically stated" and for the open topped rule in our index it says "Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line of sight from any point on this model. When they do so, ANY RESTRICTIONS OR MODIFIERS that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same turn, the passengers cannot shoot(except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on." So what that tells me is that since the Fireblade buff triggers on <Sept> models, of which the tidewall pieces are, it should also trigger for the passengers per RAW for the open topped rule. Now as I said before the thing that would stop this from being allowed would be if Volleyfire was not considered a modifier in which case the aura would not confer to the guys inside. I feel as it definitely is a modifier as it specifically states it gets an extra shot IE modify the profile of 3 specific guns. Now, is it RAI? Possibly not but even in the embarked units rule it says "normally" so maybe this is supposed to be one of the designed intentions but I definitely think it needs to be something that is FAQ'ed.

Kilazar
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Re: 8th Edition - Tidewall Fortifications

Post#15 » Jun 28 2017 01:00

Yojimbob wrote:So in the main rulebook it says "Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked." So RAW it states "unless specifically stated" and for the open topped rule in our index it says "Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line of sight from any point on this model. When they do so, ANY RESTRICTIONS OR MODIFIERS that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same turn, the passengers cannot shoot(except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on." So what that tells me is that since the Fireblade buff triggers on <Sept> models, of which the tidewall pieces are, it should also trigger for the passengers per RAW for the open topped rule. Now as I said before the thing that would stop this from being allowed would be if Volleyfire was not considered a modifier in which case the aura would not confer to the guys inside. I feel as it definitely is a modifier as it specifically states it gets an extra shot IE modify the profile of 3 specific guns. Now, is it RAI? Possibly not but even in the embarked units rule it says "normally" so maybe this is supposed to be one of the designed intentions but I definitely think it needs to be something that is FAQ'ed.



In the rule "fallback" is mentioned as an example after the "modifier" statement. I would believe that gives precedent for volley fire to be a modifier.

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Panzer
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Re: 8th Edition - Tidewall Fortifications

Post#16 » Jun 28 2017 01:09

Even if it weren't. It's a special rule coming from a Character so it neither works while he is embarked nor does it work for an embarked unit if he isn't. It's really no rocket science.

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nic
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Re: 8th Edition - Tidewall Fortifications

Post#17 » Jun 28 2017 01:19

Panzer wrote:Even if it weren't. It's a special rule coming from a Character so it neither works while he is embarked nor does it work for an embarked unit if he isn't. It's really no rocket science.


That was my first impression but I have to agree that this does look like it is a sufficiently specific exception to the normal rules that modifiers - both positive and negative - from outside the tidewall piece that affect the fortification will similarly affect the passengers. Specific rules can and do supersede more general rules and this looks like an instance of this happening.

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Panzer
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Re: 8th Edition - Tidewall Fortifications

Post#18 » Jun 28 2017 01:23

I still don't see why an outside effect should be able to affect the Firewarrior or whatever inside of it. Models who are embarked in a transport are effectively not on the field anymore so an effect that targets Firewarrior couldn't possibly affect them since the only unit in that place would be the Tidewall.

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