Fresh from Forge World - XV109 Y'vahra for 8th!

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Panzer
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Re: Fresh from Forge World - XV109 Y'vahra for 8th!

Post#19 » Jun 12 2017 03:42

azlanpower wrote:2 support system...so..
1. Target lock for mobility
2. Multitracker for ML-unsupported reroll 1s

Target Lock is definitely a must have.
However considering how easy it is to get one Markerlight on a target unit I'd use the second slot for something else.
Stim Injector maybe.

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jestermaximus
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Re: Fresh from Forge World - XV109 Y'vahra for 8th!

Post#20 » Jun 12 2017 03:49

Sounds like it's time to order a new model from Forge World!

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azlanpower
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Re: Fresh from Forge World - XV109 Y'vahra for 8th!

Post#21 » Jun 12 2017 03:56

Yup. Anywyz this suit is a beast. Quite ok with it. So...
1. Nova charged escape thrust -> guaranteed flamer range next turn plus Nova charged weapon that turn (losing 2 mortal wounds by this tactic alone)
2. Melee capable; 4 attacks in melee with pistol d6 (is that 4 d6?)
3. Guaranteed 4+ invul within 12"...auto hit on overwatch with flamers...wow

Overall, pain train at close range.

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Vector Strike
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Re: Fresh from Forge World - XV109 Y'vahra for 8th!

Post#22 » Jun 12 2017 04:02

Panzer wrote:
azlanpower wrote:2 support system...so..
1. Target lock for mobility
2. Multitracker for ML-unsupported reroll 1s

Target Lock is definitely a must have.
However considering how easy it is to get one Markerlight on a target unit I'd use the second slot for something else.
Stim Injector maybe.


How about ATS?

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Panzer
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Re: Fresh from Forge World - XV109 Y'vahra for 8th!

Post#23 » Jun 12 2017 04:04

azlanpower wrote:Yup. Anywyz this suit is a beast. Quite ok with it. So...
1. Nova charged escape thrust -> guaranteed flamer range next turn plus Nova charged weapon that turn (losing 2 mortal wounds by this tactic alone)
2. Melee capable; 4 attacks in melee with pistol d6 (is that 4 d6?)
3. Guaranteed 4+ invul within 12"...auto hit on overwatch with flamers...wow

Overall, pain train at close range.

2. You don't use the pistol in melee. You just shoot it normally in your shooting phase with the addition that you can shoot it while being in melee but having to shoot at the closest target in that case.
So it would be d6 shots in your shooting phase and 4 attacks in any melee phase. ;)

Vector Strike wrote:
Panzer wrote:
azlanpower wrote:2 support system...so..
1. Target lock for mobility
2. Multitracker for ML-unsupported reroll 1s

Target Lock is definitely a must have.
However considering how easy it is to get one Markerlight on a target unit I'd use the second slot for something else.
Stim Injector maybe.


How about ATS?

ATS is definitely an interesting option considering the Flechette Pod and AP-3 on the flamer would be nice as well. AP-4 on his other gun seems to be a bit overkill though. :D

Koetjeboe
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Re: Fresh from Forge World - XV109 Y'vahra for 8th!

Post#24 » Jun 12 2017 04:23

don't get too excited about the IDC yet, its been nerfed fairly significantly. You used to get an extra haywire hit for each normal hit, instead of just 1 (mortal) wound on a 6, which is not bad I suppose, but not nearly as awesome as an extra hullpoint on 2-5 and a pen hit on a 6 was. Although thinking about it, D3 damage might compensate a little but I dunno, I don't have the time atm but somebody should really mathhammer the difference in efficiency. The Y'vahra was pretty stronk, though a little on the fragile side with the fewer wounds than a normal Riptide. A lot of its power also came from the torrent AP2! flamer which is now just AP -2 and only 8" range.

The changes might be warranted as the Y'vahra was pretty good but again it does not make me enthusiastic about using it, maybe it is better now at killing vehicles and a little bit worse at killing heavy infantry (orcs coming about out of blown up transports really didnt like my Y'vahra :biggrin: ). All still depends on the points value, which I also guess will be pretty bad (generally FW stuff tends to be overcosted).

[edit]Ooh wait just noticed, the new profile is 3D3 hits, instead of 3 + D3, that gives a potential from 3-9 hits up from 4-6.[/edit]
Last edited by Koetjeboe on Jun 12 2017 04:31, edited 2 times in total.

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Panzer
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Re: Fresh from Forge World - XV109 Y'vahra for 8th!

Post#25 » Jun 12 2017 04:28

It will probably cost somewhere between 350-500 points considering that 1PR can easily vary between 15 and 25 points.

Das'Kyman
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Re: Fresh from Forge World - XV109 Y'vahra for 8th!

Post#26 » Jun 12 2017 05:21

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the rulebook's section on Reinforcements specifically disallows further movement after arriving from off the board. I had hoped for post-arrival movement as well but it was not in the cards.
So the escape thrust is not very attractive given its ability to move out of combat anyways. That doesn't make the flamer worthless though.
IMHO the flamer is the real winner of the two weapons. Charging this model or one nearby while within 8" will be painful in the extreme.

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Vector Strike
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Re: Fresh from Forge World - XV109 Y'vahra for 8th!

Post#27 » Jun 12 2017 05:30

Koetjeboe wrote: The Y'vahra was pretty stronk, though a little on the fragile side with the fewer wounds than a normal Riptide.


They have the same number of Wounds

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azlanpower
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Re: Fresh from Forge World - XV109 Y'vahra for 8th!

Post#28 » Jun 12 2017 06:04

Das'Kyman wrote:I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the rulebook's section on Reinforcements specifically disallows further movement after arriving from off the board. I had hoped for post-arrival movement as well but it was not in the cards.
So the escape thrust is not very attractive given its ability to move out of combat anyways. That doesn't make the flamer worthless though.
IMHO the flamer is the real winner of the two weapons. Charging this model or one nearby while within 8" will be painful in the extreme.


Yvahra deployed first on the field before using its Nova escape thrust and then remove it from play. So hes not considered Reinforcement like those Crisis who are kept in Reserve before game starts then arrive via Manta strike at the END of movement. Yvahra drop at the BEGINING of movement so yeah he can move.

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Unusualsuspect
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Re: Fresh from Forge World - XV109 Y'vahra for 8th!

Post#29 » Jun 12 2017 06:31

Fast Attack... such a crowded slot filled with lovely things I always want more of: Pathfinders, Tactical Drones, Vespid, and now Y'vahra!

That flamer profile is amazingly all-purpose. though I really wish they were 10" range or more, or Reserves worked differently (and/or clarified by FW later on to allow movement).

Seriously, the non-nova version does an average of 1.55 unsaved damage to an Imperial Knight, about 50% more than an astartes lascannon would, and the Nova's 2.33 is more than comparable to over 2 astartes Lascannons in expected damage.

And Imperial Knights are not really its expected target! Think in horror about what that would do to an exposed group of Tyranid Warriors, Necron Destroyers, Space Wolf Thunderwolves, and even our beloved Crisis Suits....

Support System wise, three choices stand out as particularly good:

ATS: King of 8th edition Support Systems. It makes non-invulnerable-save Vehicles melt even more against both main weapons, makes even the Flechettes semi-useful, and generally increases the shooting potential of an already extremely shooty unit (that's a good thing - a few points magnifying a lot of base firepower is good efficiency if the base firepower is fairly priced).

Target Lock: With an 18" Movement, an extremely close range Heavy dakka gun, and the fact that I generally want my Y'vahra to be able to operate somewhat independently (preferrably hopping from Tactical Drone wound bank to Tactical Drone wound bank, to keep that Y'vahra around past turn 1), I want to rely on as much base accuracy as possible when making use of all of that exceptional movement to get all that firepower where it needs to be. Relying on Markerlights for targets (especially more than 2) just doesn't seem reasonably reliable, so firing the IDC at normal BS is worth the points and worth the slot.

Stimulant Injector: With Drone Support, there's a basic principle worth following in almost all situations: if you've got a better save and can survive the hit reasonably well, take the mostly-worthless infantry shots and pass the multi-damage and/or high-penetration or mortal wounds onto the Drones. Stimulant Injectors on a 14w 2+ chassis with high mobility (i.e. can easily retreat to a nearby Drone Team for defensive support) means that you're making already weak infantry weapons even weaker, and can keep running at maximum movement (and thus maximum functionality).

Some still seem worth considering, but seem far more niche...

A Shield Generator (depending on the pricing) might be a worthwhile defensive slot, and allow for a bit more independence from Drone support (though still not a lot). Edit: How'd I miss the natural boost to 4+ when within 12" or in melee? Yeah, not worth the slot at that point, just go with Stims.

Early Warning Override: It has some potential, but other upgrades seem more on point. Still, if you Nova'd last turn, anything that deepstrikes within 12" is eating an average of 6 shots that mostly meet or exceed lascannons in stats but with roughly half the damage each, and anything that manages to break into the rare realm of Deepstriking within 9" of an enemy can end up severely punished. But again, mostly its got a single gun that would apply, and that just doesn't seem a worthwhile use of the slot.

Drone Controller: Drone Controllers are awesome, but I always look to see if something less obtrusive and with less opportunity cost in putting a DC on is around. Jumping from Tactical Drone ablative wound pool to ablative wound pool while laughing maniacally seems absolutely part and parcel with the Y'vahra's profile and presumed tactics, but a Drone Controller shouldn't be necessary so long as you can fit it onto other units.

And then, there's the the upgrade that's rarely useful. Multi-trackers can be so easily replicated (1 ML as opposed to 3), and have such an annoyingly restrictive requirement (shooting all weapons at the same target - not necessarily what you'll want to be doing with this weapon loadout), that even with their minuscule costs, I almost always find the slot better used by another upgrade.



But, can't ignore the elephant in the room: No more Assault Jump. That means the exceptionally close ranges of the Y'vahra's firepower (12", 8", and 6") mean that whatever is left of the enemy can and will be fully capable of assaulting you. You can certainly make assaulting from less than 8" away a very painful experience (7 to 10 6/-2/D3 auto-hits), but that's probably not going to be enough to deter dedicated assault units from turning your monstrous (and consequently monstrously priced) battlesuit into little torn bits of flesh and metal.

Really, that just means you need to annihilate utterly whatever you aim the Y'Vahra at (... often not impossible) and either have done so by isolating the target or by judicious firepower at the target and its allies from other forces of your own.

Call me cautiously optimistic.

I'm hopefully optimistic.

Yvahra deployed first on the field before using its Nova escape thrust and then remove it from play. So hes not considered Reinforcement like those Crisis who are kept in Reserve before game starts then arrive via Manta strike at the END of movement. Yvahra drop at the BEGINING of movement so yeah he can move.


If you have access to the leaked rulebook, look on the page "1. Movement Phase" (177, I think), particularly at the bottom paragraph of the far right column.

It discusses that the setup typically happens at the end of Movement, but that it can happen at other times as well. It them provides the universal rule that "Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive . . . but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for thte rest of their turn."

That is what prevents the Y'vahra from moving, and the Y'vahra seems to lack something that would grant it immunity from that reinforcements rule.

Das'Kyman
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Re: Fresh from Forge World - XV109 Y'vahra for 8th!

Post#30 » Jun 12 2017 07:13

Rulebook p.177 wrote:Many units have the ability to set up on the battlefield mid-turn... Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases.Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive-...

Y'vahra wrote:...the Y'vahra may be removed from play and set up in the sky. At the beginning of your next Movement phase, your may set the Y'vahra anywhere on the battlefield as long as it is more than 9"...

Naturally, this is not as explicit as some would like rules to be, but to me it is clear that Reinforcements is not restricted to models that begin the game off the board. It is also not restricted to models that arrive at the end of the movement phase. Reinforcements applies to any models arriving on the board mid-game, apparently regardless of whether they've been on the board before or when they are supposed to arrive.
The reason the Y'vahra comes at the beginning of the movement phase is pretty clear as well: if it did not arrive at the beginning of the movement phase, it could not NOVA when it arrived.

Obviously, you should follow what your local group decides, either way. I personally doubt any opponent would agree that Reinforcements does not apply to this situation, but more power to you if you can convince them.

Flower Urchin
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Re: Fresh from Forge World - XV109 Y'vahra for 8th!

Post#31 » Jun 12 2017 08:33

The drones can be worth it now and the shielded missile drone is faster and more survivable than the pure missile. The drones no longer slow it down and can stay back as a relatively cheap missile platform.
And while it's movement no longer gets it as far, it also stays fast every turn. So you get more mileage out of it. Until it gets too wounded.
The most obvious use for it's intense short range it to first turn melt the most dangerous unit/s on the table and if it survives to shoot again, great.
I'm still disappointed in no JSJ. Last edition I wondered about using vespid as a protective shield to keep it active for a turn or two longer than normal, but now I can't.

BillyBones
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Re: Fresh from Forge World - XV109 Y'vahra for 8th!

Post#32 » Jun 13 2017 03:13

Well there are exceptions to not moving after arriving from reserves - genstealers cults can do it, and the Y'vahra's ability is somewhat different.

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Unusualsuspect
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Re: Fresh from Forge World - XV109 Y'vahra for 8th!

Post#33 » Jun 13 2017 10:03

BillyBones wrote:Well there are exceptions to not moving after arriving from reserves - genstealers cults can do it, and the Y'vahra's ability is somewhat different.


Does the genestealer cult exception have language explicitly allowing them to violate that basic tenet of Reserves?

That would explain how genestealer cults could move after arriving from reserves.

Lacking that language for the Y'vahra, however, and despite the undeniable fact that the Y'vahra's ability is "somewhat different" in form from typical reserves, I just don't see the Y'vahra granted permission to violate it.

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Peregrim
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Re: Fresh from Forge World - XV109 Y'vahra for 8th!

Post#34 » Jun 13 2017 10:08

Das'Kyman is correct -- the general rules prevent you from moving the Y'vahra after deploying it at the start of the movement phase. Good catch.

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Panzer
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Re: Fresh from Forge World - XV109 Y'vahra for 8th!

Post#35 » Jun 13 2017 10:20

Unusualsuspect wrote:
BillyBones wrote:Well there are exceptions to not moving after arriving from reserves - genstealers cults can do it, and the Y'vahra's ability is somewhat different.


Does the genestealer cult exception have language explicitly allowing them to violate that basic tenet of Reserves?

That would explain how genestealer cults could move after arriving from reserves.

Lacking that language for the Y'vahra, however, and despite the undeniable fact that the Y'vahra's ability is "somewhat different" in form from typical reserves, I just don't see the Y'vahra granted permission to violate it.

Only result 5 and 6 have something in their description that allows them to advance(5) or move normally(6).

I'm with you that the Y'vahra can't move after coming back with his Escape move, however I also think that Forgeworld was intending to allow him to move or else it wouldn't make much sense to make him arrive at the beginning of the Movement Phase. Once again most likely poor rules reading by the FW design team.

BillyBones
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Re: Fresh from Forge World - XV109 Y'vahra for 8th!

Post#36 » Jun 13 2017 12:29

Well then it seems that you pay a quite heavy tax for usingg the ability as you loose 2 movement phases a wound and still miss the opportunity to use the flamer.

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