Riptide overnerf?

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Temennigru
Shas'Saal
Posts: 14

Riptide overnerf?

Post#1 » Jun 16 2017 05:47

I feel like the riptide was really overnerfed in this eddition.
The strongest thing about it was the riptide wing. They removed formations and the riptide's ability to bundle into units. But did the nerf stop there? Not by a longshot. Even though the riptide by itself was fairly balanced in 7e, GW felt like they needed to completely pummel it to the ground. Let's look at stats, shall we?

(Stats from the online "leaks" made by GW)

Riptide base stats:
M WS BS S T W Sv (the rest doesn't really matter)
12 5+ 4+ 6 7 14 2+/5++
With the standard build, which is an ion accelerator (burst cannon is *BAD WORD DELETED!*) and 2 missile drones, the riptide costs a whopping 406 points.

Ion accelerator:
Std: 72'', S7, Heavy 3, D 1, AP -3
Nova: 72'', S9, Heavy d6, D 3, AP -3

Now let's look at a similarly prices unit: The imperial knight, armed with a thermal cannon, which is very similar to the ion accelerator)

M WS BS S T W Sv
12 3+ 3+ 8 8 24 3+/5++

Point cost: 430

Thermal cannon:
36'', S9, Heavy d3, D d6, AP -4

Now let's compare the stats (Imperial knight - riptide):

M WS BS S T W Sv
0 +2 +1 +2 +1 +10 -1/0

Weapons (std):
-36'', S+2, d0, 1->d6, +1 AP

Weapons (nova charge):
-36'', S0, -d3, 3->d6 (on average the same), +1 AP

What we can get from this:
-With these builds, the knight and the riptide have roughly the same number of weapons. The knight has the stubber, the reaper chainsword, the thermal cannon and the stomp (which is now a separate weapon).
-The imperial knight has some disadvantages over the riptide (armor specifically), but it more than makes up for this with his advantages (better toughness and WAY better offensive stats).
-The imperial knight has almost double the number of wounds as the riptide. Therefore, it gets to shoot for twice as long.
-The imperial knight has melee weapons, the riptide does not.
-The imperial knight gains lots of bonuses from being a super-heavy walker. The riptide does not.
-The thermal cannon is more or less at the same power level as the ion accelerator. Sure it has half the range, but it consistently shoots a high powered shot. If the riptide wants to deal, on average, 33% more damage than the imperial knight, it needs to roll for the nova charge, which is 33% chance of failure and inflicting a mortal wound on it.

Summarizing everything:
The imperial knight is basically 2 riptides, with half the weaknesses and that does everything better than the riptide (including shooting at a far more consistent hitting rate) for 24 points more.

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Vector Strike
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 955

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#2 » Jun 16 2017 05:51

I agree that the pendulum swung quite hard on the Riptide. But I'm hopeful the living faq will change things.

It was somwhat undercosted in 7e, but now it's not very useable. This 'what was good is now bad, and vice versa' system GW usually does every big edition change should stop.
People are more interested in using Y'vahra than a Riptide, even costing more, because the former at least has some offensive potential. Riptide now is just a glorified taunt.

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khayman
Shas'Saal
Posts: 91

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#3 » Jun 16 2017 06:42

Vector Strike wrote:I agree that the pendulum swung quite hard on the Riptide. But I'm hopeful the living faq will change things.

It was somwhat undercosted in 7e, but now it's not very useable. This 'what was good is now bad, and vice versa' system GW usually does every big edition change should stop.
People are more interested in using Y'vahra than a Riptide, even costing more, because the former at least has some offensive potential. Riptide now is just a glorified taunt.


It was undercosted based on the fact that you could use the wing formation. Based on that alone, yes, it was overcosted. A single Riptide was hardly ever a problem for opponents. But there are no formations anymore. So why such a steep price hike?

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Tarnag
Shas
Posts: 24

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#4 » Jun 16 2017 07:57

khayman wrote:
Vector Strike wrote:I agree that the pendulum swung quite hard on the Riptide. But I'm hopeful the living faq will change things.

It was somwhat undercosted in 7e, but now it's not very useable. This 'what was good is now bad, and vice versa' system GW usually does every big edition change should stop.
People are more interested in using Y'vahra than a Riptide, even costing more, because the former at least has some offensive potential. Riptide now is just a glorified taunt.


It was undercosted based on the fact that you could use the wing formation. Based on that alone, yes, it was overcosted. A single Riptide was hardly ever a problem for opponents. But there are no formations anymore. So why such a steep price hike?

Though I haven't had a chance to get a game of 8th in yet, in my list building I just can't find myself fitting a RIptide in, it just seems like I can't find a place for one in my lists anymore. Kinda upsetting, I have three and I don't know if I'll be able to justify taking them off the shelf anymore, since the vitriol about Riptides is there, but the rules that formed it are dead and gone.

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azlanpower
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Posts: 87
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Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#5 » Jun 16 2017 08:49

Theres a thread "RIP Riptide".

Indeed, in 8th edition, RIP riptide.
Who makes these Riptide rules for 8th are clearly not Tau players themselves, otherwise they would know what is the true strength of Riptide (riptide wing). Lone Riptide wouldnt make a big punch or put into competitive list in 7th, its almost always the Rwing. Now overcosted (while ppl still argue somewhat good stats but mehhh), innert 4+ to hit, at best 3+ only, no formations benefit or even other benefit justifying the cost for efficiency, and most Youtubers/pro players already mentioning how Riptide is dead.....so yeah, RIP. Sad sad truth to our beloved Riptide.

DVeight
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 66

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#6 » Jun 17 2017 02:10

Wait for the codex peeps. There will be more specific stuff in there. Give it a few months. It's on it's way.

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Shas'O Darklighter
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 465

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#7 » Jun 17 2017 03:17

I didn't think it was so bad, (having not costed out an army list yet) but compared to the Knight it's a total bum deal!

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Bloodknife92
Shas'La
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Posts: 540

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#8 » Jun 17 2017 03:46

DVeight wrote:Wait for the codex peeps. There will be more specific stuff in there. Give it a few months. It's on it's way.

There won't be any Riptide wings though. GW Explicitly said that there won't be any army specific formations anymore. And I completely agree with this decision, as I really disliked how powerful some of the formations were. I'm sure they'll have a second look at the Riptide, but I still think everyone is SUPER underestimating how good it still is.
The days of goodly English is went
Ziss old dog still has a few tricks!

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Bloodknife92
Shas'La
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Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#9 » Jun 17 2017 05:06

Temennigru wrote:With the standard build, which is an ion accelerator (burst cannon is *BAD WORD DELETED!*) and 2 missile drones, the riptide costs a whopping 406 points.

Please avoid postibg full statlines, and please avoid using coarse language, as these two actions are bkth a breach of the Member Guidelines and Expectations, which can be found and read on the ATT homepage.
The days of goodly English is went
Ziss old dog still has a few tricks!

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Lyi'ot
Por'O
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Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#10 » Jun 17 2017 01:43

Bloodknife is absolutely correct -- we try to avoid listing full stat lines. But given that Games Workshop released these stat-lines in their run-up to 8th edition, I'll permit it.

But curse words aren't cool, not even when they're self-censored.

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nic
Kroot'La
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Posts: 764

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#11 » Jun 17 2017 02:00

If you support a Riptide with Drones (which you should) it is incredibly durable. Your opponent has to get up close enough to use anti-horde weaponry on the Drones before they have a chance of taking down the Riptide with the high-output weapons.

However I broadly agree with your analysis, as do the playtesters from Frontline Gaming; the Riptide has been hit by the nerfbat this edition while the Imperial Knight is likely to be the most prominent undercosted problem model in tournament play.

I think there has been a reaction against the ridiculous Riptide Wing spam GW saw when they started supporting 7th Ed tournaments. I think we all know how dumb that formation was. :roll:

Temennigru
Shas'Saal
Posts: 14

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#12 » Jun 17 2017 05:31

Bloodknife92 wrote:
Temennigru wrote:With the standard build, which is an ion accelerator (burst cannon is *BAD WORD DELETED!*) and 2 missile drones, the riptide costs a whopping 406 points.

Please avoid postibg full statlines, and please avoid using coarse language, as these two actions are bkth a breach of the Member Guidelines and Expectations, which can be found and read on the ATT homepage.


I thought about that, but 1- the stats were leaked by GW themselves, 2- the stats are most likely temporary till the codexes come out, 3- this falls into the "unless you have to", since this thread is stats comparison.

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A'ran Kais
Shas'Saal
Posts: 6

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#13 » Jun 17 2017 05:51

Bloodknife92 wrote:
DVeight wrote:Wait for the codex peeps. There will be more specific stuff in there. Give it a few months. It's on it's way.

There won't be any Riptide wings though. GW Explicitly said that there won't be any army specific formations anymore. And I completely agree with this decision, as I really disliked how powerful some of the formations were. I'm sure they'll have a second look at the Riptide, but I still think everyone is SUPER underestimating how good it still is.


I have to agree with you mate, Riptide is still awesome. How? Because it's resilience. I had 2 game in 8th, he first against harlequins, the latter against orks. While my surge died against a single ork warboss, the Riptide survive to orks shootings nad 4 charge from boyz, meganobs, warbike and a battlewagon. 2+ armor save, drone, fly and those stat are awesome. What it lacks is effectiveness during the shooting phase.

Give him a try...

davethepak
Shas
Posts: 18

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#14 » Jun 17 2017 09:02

Yes, the riptide (and most of the tau) was nerfed way too hard.

I say this not just as a tau player (my first army, learned with them in 5th) - but as a player who plays many armies and has a wide perspective.

Many things in the tau could have clearly used an adjustment;
* getting rid of all the silly riptide wing benefits (many armies were op because of this)
* getting rid of the basic cadre bonuses we got - they were just silly
* the riptide specifcially could have used a slight boost in cost, or a reduction in armor save (as did many of the other big 2+ models).

However, its pretty clear that tau got mangled - not just nerfed. there are many threads on this already, so no need to repeat it all here.

I can say this - as player who plays with and against many armies - the biggest sin the riptide committed was this;
* Marine players lost their precious 3+ save and were killed in cover.
* it was done by a xenos ....

By shooting the ion accelerator at some marines in cover, and vaporizing them with the help of markerlights caused many marine players to call "FOUL!".

Yes, they could get erased by other means (grave kills all pretty much...) but to have a xenos do it, and the player to feel helpless (um...don't space them that way?) in their otherwise super marines being killed - was purely, heresy.

Don't get me wrong, I too have marines (yeah, the shame....) - but they don't like getting beat by xenos.

The riptide, did it well. RIP.

BillyBones
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 97

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#15 » Jun 18 2017 01:36

My thought exactaly, I will gladly admit that our infantry is awesome PFs and FWs and also drones are awesome. I would argue that drones can't be targeted separately if they are within 3 of other unit or are the closest target. Otherwise the suits are tough, but lack some punch andwe have nowhere else to put the heavy weapons.

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Bloodknife92
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 540

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#16 » Jun 18 2017 02:01

davethepak wrote: there are many threads on this already, so no need to repeat it all here.

There's no need to repeat it, and yet I keep seeing articles bashing the T'au on a forum board about the T'au. I've had it with all of these complaints about the T'au, so much that I'm considering asking the mods to put a ban on posts bashing the T'au, because they're not productive to T'au discussion and are potentially turning people away from the faction and away from these boards. If you want to complain about the T'au, this is not the place to do it. If you don't like them, go play another faction. It's time these complaints stopped completely. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

/end rant.
The days of goodly English is went
Ziss old dog still has a few tricks!

Watcher on the wall
Shas'Saal
Posts: 89

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#17 » Jun 18 2017 07:20

I'm actually quite encouraged by the new edition, or at the very least other armies have been nerfed more than we have. My two battles in 8th edition have been against Eldar/Ynnari and we do far better against them than we did before.

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Lechai Skull
Shas'Saal
Posts: 365

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#18 » Jun 18 2017 08:32

Watcher on the wall wrote:I'm actually quite encouraged by the new edition, or at the very least other armies have been nerfed more than we have. My two battles in 8th edition have been against Eldar/Ynnari and we do far better against them than we did before.


Can you elaborate on how eldar have nerfed harder than we have?
I haven't read any of the eldar stuff yet. But from what ive seen in a few batrep's they still look pretty strong.

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