Riptide overnerf?

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Temennigru
Shas'Saal
Posts: 8

Riptide overnerf?

Post#1 » Jun 16 2017 05:47

I feel like the riptide was really overnerfed in this eddition.
The strongest thing about it was the riptide wing. They removed formations and the riptide's ability to bundle into units. But did the nerf stop there? Not by a longshot. Even though the riptide by itself was fairly balanced in 7e, GW felt like they needed to completely pummel it to the ground. Let's look at stats, shall we?

(Stats from the online "leaks" made by GW)

Riptide base stats:
M WS BS S T W Sv (the rest doesn't really matter)
12 5+ 4+ 6 7 14 2+/5++
With the standard build, which is an ion accelerator (burst cannon is *BAD WORD DELETED!*) and 2 missile drones, the riptide costs a whopping 406 points.

Ion accelerator:
Std: 72'', S7, Heavy 3, D 1, AP -3
Nova: 72'', S9, Heavy d6, D 3, AP -3

Now let's look at a similarly prices unit: The imperial knight, armed with a thermal cannon, which is very similar to the ion accelerator)

M WS BS S T W Sv
12 3+ 3+ 8 8 24 3+/5++

Point cost: 430

Thermal cannon:
36'', S9, Heavy d3, D d6, AP -4

Now let's compare the stats (Imperial knight - riptide):

M WS BS S T W Sv
0 +2 +1 +2 +1 +10 -1/0

Weapons (std):
-36'', S+2, d0, 1->d6, +1 AP

Weapons (nova charge):
-36'', S0, -d3, 3->d6 (on average the same), +1 AP

What we can get from this:
-With these builds, the knight and the riptide have roughly the same number of weapons. The knight has the stubber, the reaper chainsword, the thermal cannon and the stomp (which is now a separate weapon).
-The imperial knight has some disadvantages over the riptide (armor specifically), but it more than makes up for this with his advantages (better toughness and WAY better offensive stats).
-The imperial knight has almost double the number of wounds as the riptide. Therefore, it gets to shoot for twice as long.
-The imperial knight has melee weapons, the riptide does not.
-The imperial knight gains lots of bonuses from being a super-heavy walker. The riptide does not.
-The thermal cannon is more or less at the same power level as the ion accelerator. Sure it has half the range, but it consistently shoots a high powered shot. If the riptide wants to deal, on average, 33% more damage than the imperial knight, it needs to roll for the nova charge, which is 33% chance of failure and inflicting a mortal wound on it.

Summarizing everything:
The imperial knight is basically 2 riptides, with half the weaknesses and that does everything better than the riptide (including shooting at a far more consistent hitting rate) for 24 points more.

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Vector Strike
Shas'La
Posts: 778

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#2 » Jun 16 2017 05:51

I agree that the pendulum swung quite hard on the Riptide. But I'm hopeful the living faq will change things.

It was somwhat undercosted in 7e, but now it's not very useable. This 'what was good is now bad, and vice versa' system GW usually does every big edition change should stop.
People are more interested in using Y'vahra than a Riptide, even costing more, because the former at least has some offensive potential. Riptide now is just a glorified taunt.

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khayman
Shas'Saal
Posts: 68

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#3 » Jun 16 2017 06:42

Vector Strike wrote:I agree that the pendulum swung quite hard on the Riptide. But I'm hopeful the living faq will change things.

It was somwhat undercosted in 7e, but now it's not very useable. This 'what was good is now bad, and vice versa' system GW usually does every big edition change should stop.
People are more interested in using Y'vahra than a Riptide, even costing more, because the former at least has some offensive potential. Riptide now is just a glorified taunt.


It was undercosted based on the fact that you could use the wing formation. Based on that alone, yes, it was overcosted. A single Riptide was hardly ever a problem for opponents. But there are no formations anymore. So why such a steep price hike?

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Tarnag
Shas
Posts: 23

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#4 » Jun 16 2017 07:57

khayman wrote:
Vector Strike wrote:I agree that the pendulum swung quite hard on the Riptide. But I'm hopeful the living faq will change things.

It was somwhat undercosted in 7e, but now it's not very useable. This 'what was good is now bad, and vice versa' system GW usually does every big edition change should stop.
People are more interested in using Y'vahra than a Riptide, even costing more, because the former at least has some offensive potential. Riptide now is just a glorified taunt.


It was undercosted based on the fact that you could use the wing formation. Based on that alone, yes, it was overcosted. A single Riptide was hardly ever a problem for opponents. But there are no formations anymore. So why such a steep price hike?

Though I haven't had a chance to get a game of 8th in yet, in my list building I just can't find myself fitting a RIptide in, it just seems like I can't find a place for one in my lists anymore. Kinda upsetting, I have three and I don't know if I'll be able to justify taking them off the shelf anymore, since the vitriol about Riptides is there, but the rules that formed it are dead and gone.

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azlanpower
Shas'Saal
Posts: 76
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Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#5 » Jun 16 2017 08:49

Theres a thread "RIP Riptide".

Indeed, in 8th edition, RIP riptide.
Who makes these Riptide rules for 8th are clearly not Tau players themselves, otherwise they would know what is the true strength of Riptide (riptide wing). Lone Riptide wouldnt make a big punch or put into competitive list in 7th, its almost always the Rwing. Now overcosted (while ppl still argue somewhat good stats but mehhh), innert 4+ to hit, at best 3+ only, no formations benefit or even other benefit justifying the cost for efficiency, and most Youtubers/pro players already mentioning how Riptide is dead.....so yeah, RIP. Sad sad truth to our beloved Riptide.

DVeight
Shas'La
Posts: 51

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#6 » Jun 17 2017 02:10

Wait for the codex peeps. There will be more specific stuff in there. Give it a few months. It's on it's way.

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Shas'O Darklighter
Shas'Ui
Posts: 430

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#7 » Jun 17 2017 03:17

I didn't think it was so bad, (having not costed out an army list yet) but compared to the Knight it's a total bum deal!

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Bloodknife92
Shas'La
Posts: 438

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#8 » Jun 17 2017 03:46

DVeight wrote:Wait for the codex peeps. There will be more specific stuff in there. Give it a few months. It's on it's way.

There won't be any Riptide wings though. GW Explicitly said that there won't be any army specific formations anymore. And I completely agree with this decision, as I really disliked how powerful some of the formations were. I'm sure they'll have a second look at the Riptide, but I still think everyone is SUPER underestimating how good it still is.
The days of goodly English is went

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Bloodknife92
Shas'La
Posts: 438

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#9 » Jun 17 2017 05:06

Temennigru wrote:With the standard build, which is an ion accelerator (burst cannon is *BAD WORD DELETED!*) and 2 missile drones, the riptide costs a whopping 406 points.

Please avoid postibg full statlines, and please avoid using coarse language, as these two actions are bkth a breach of the Member Guidelines and Expectations, which can be found and read on the ATT homepage.
The days of goodly English is went

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Lyi'ot
Por'O
Posts: 2730

Re: Riptide overnerf?

Post#10 » Jun 17 2017 01:43

Bloodknife is absolutely correct -- we try to avoid listing full stat lines. But given that Games Workshop released these stat-lines in their run-up to 8th edition, I'll permit it.

But curse words aren't cool, not even when they're self-censored.

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