Designer's Commentary - 'FAQ' for 40k 8th!

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Vector Strike
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Re: Designer's Commentary - 'FAQ' for 40k 8th!

Post#11 » Jun 17 2017 02:37

boomwolf wrote:The reroll logic is really twisted.


On the other hand, deepstrike/infiltrators/etc count against deployed model count for purposes of who gets first turn. this is pretty big.


Yes, but I believe this was already counted on by people. Now, having people inside a transport not counting for unit count is really interesting and up the value of Devilfishes and Tidewalls

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Unusualsuspect
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Re: Designer's Commentary - 'FAQ' for 40k 8th!

Post#12 » Jun 17 2017 03:06

The reroll is a bit odd, but I suspect most of us will adapt soon enough.

It places more limits on the benefits of a reroll, which is probably a good thing given how potent they were in previous editions.

It makes Gets Hots weapons a bit more dangerous if subject to shooting penalties (not just moving and firing Heavy weapons, but also things Stealth/Ghostkeel penalties to hit and similar abilities in other armies).

Imagine a Devastator within range of a reroll-1's aura with a Plasma Cannon moving then shooting at a Ghostkeel near Stealth Drones:

If the Devastator rolls a natural 1, then he gets to re-roll. Modifiers apply after rerolls. That means on natural rolls of 2, 3, and 4, the Devastator is slain outright, and only actually hits on a 5 or 6.

Same applies to our Ion weapons, so we should keep that well in mind.

On offense, the ability to reroll 1s with this limit is not actually affected - regardless of whether it was before or after modifiers, without the baseline rule of any result below 1 counts as 1, you can only have 1 result in 6 that is a 1. Because the reroll triggers the same amount of time regardless of pre- or post-modification (again, without that baseline rule changing <1 to 1), the benefit conferred by the rerolled 1 is the same.

It also suggests that getting an overall +1 modifier to hit means you'll never trigger the mortal wound, since only rerolls (and not other conditional rules) apply before modifiers.




I still don't think the rule makes any sense when applied to abilities allowing rerolls on "failed" rolls... which aren't determined until you check modifiers, which you can't apply before rerolls, which you can't apply before you apply modifiers, which... well, you get the idea.

BillyBones
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Re: Designer's Commentary - 'FAQ' for 40k 8th!

Post#13 » Jun 17 2017 03:27

Well on the other hand the gets hot is usually so punishing that it should only on roll of natural one, maybe even forbid the reroll in this case. Simply missing because the target is hard to hit will not cause an overload.

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thesnailmaster
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Re: Designer's Commentary - 'FAQ' for 40k 8th!

Post#14 » Jun 17 2017 04:03

Vector Strike wrote:
boomwolf wrote:The reroll logic is really twisted.


On the other hand, deepstrike/infiltrators/etc count against deployed model count for purposes of who gets first turn. this is pretty big.


Yes, but I believe this was already counted on by people. Now, having people inside a transport not counting for unit count is really interesting and up the value of Devilfishes and Tidewalls


That is how I already read it in the rules anyway, its good that they clarified it any way, my main worry is how long will it take for an FAQ to out size the base rules though. :P

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boomwolf
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Re: Designer's Commentary - 'FAQ' for 40k 8th!

Post#15 » Jun 17 2017 04:22

thesnailmaster wrote:
Vector Strike wrote:
boomwolf wrote:The reroll logic is really twisted.


On the other hand, deepstrike/infiltrators/etc count against deployed model count for purposes of who gets first turn. this is pretty big.


Yes, but I believe this was already counted on by people. Now, having people inside a transport not counting for unit count is really interesting and up the value of Devilfishes and Tidewalls


That is how I already read it in the rules anyway, its good that they clarified it any way, my main worry is how long will it take for an FAQ to out size the base rules though. :P



Clarified?
That's hardy clear now. I'm willing to bet I'll get it wrong every game.

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Tastyfish
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Re: Designer's Commentary - 'FAQ' for 40k 8th!

Post#16 » Jun 18 2017 11:28

Get's hot is just as dangerous, if you were moving and firing an overcharged heavy weapon then a roll of a '1' becomes 0, which is safe. It's the '2's that get you now.

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Gragagrogog
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Re: Designer's Commentary - 'FAQ' for 40k 8th!

Post#17 » Jun 18 2017 11:50

Tastyfish wrote:Get's hot is just as dangerous, if you were moving and firing an overcharged heavy weapon then a roll of a '1' becomes 0, which is safe. It's the '2's that get you now.


Except...

Q: Can a dice roll ever be modified to less than 1?
A: No. If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice
roll would be less than 1, count that result as a 1.

So it seems shooting our Stealthsuits... even if you have reroll 1's, if you roll natural 2, you don't get the reroll and you die. If you first roll natural 1, you get the reroll, then if you roll 1 or 2, you still die.

This changes the chances of suffering the get's hot from shooting to a -1 modifier unit with rerolls of 1s from 2.78% to 22.22%.

heksagon
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Re: Designer's Commentary - 'FAQ' for 40k 8th!

Post#18 » Jun 18 2017 04:05

Gragagrogog wrote:
Tastyfish wrote:Get's hot is just as dangerous, if you were moving and firing an overcharged heavy weapon then a roll of a '1' becomes 0, which is safe. It's the '2's that get you now.


Except...

Q: Can a dice roll ever be modified to less than 1?
A: No. If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice
roll would be less than 1, count that result as a 1.

So it seems shooting our Stealthsuits... even if you have reroll 1's, if you roll natural 2, you don't get the reroll and you die. If you first roll natural 1, you get the reroll, then if you roll 1 or 2, you still die.

This changes the chances of suffering the get's hot from shooting to a -1 modifier unit with rerolls of 1s from 2.78% to 22.22%.


Well... I guess stealthy units will be much much more important in this edition. Aaand airplanes.

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Lechai Skull
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Re: Designer's Commentary - 'FAQ' for 40k 8th!

Post#19 » Jun 18 2017 07:32

heksagon wrote:
Gragagrogog wrote:
Tastyfish wrote:Get's hot is just as dangerous, if you were moving and firing an overcharged heavy weapon then a roll of a '1' becomes 0, which is safe. It's the '2's that get you now.


Except...

Q: Can a dice roll ever be modified to less than 1?
A: No. If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice
roll would be less than 1, count that result as a 1.

So it seems shooting our Stealthsuits... even if you have reroll 1's, if you roll natural 2, you don't get the reroll and you die. If you first roll natural 1, you get the reroll, then if you roll 1 or 2, you still die.

This changes the chances of suffering the get's hot from shooting to a -1 modifier unit with rerolls of 1s from 2.78% to 22.22%.


Well... I guess stealthy units will be much much more important in this edition. Aaand airplanes.


Not really, most players just wont overcharge plasma weapons when they have negative modifiers. And we don't have any units that they would need to overcharge against us anyway, as everything that has negative modifiers has a lower toughness value than plasma's strength of 7.

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Panzer
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Re: Designer's Commentary - 'FAQ' for 40k 8th!

Post#20 » Jun 18 2017 11:06

Lechai Skull wrote:Well... I guess stealthy units will be much much more important in this edition. Aaand airplanes.


Not really, most players just wont overcharge plasma weapons when they have negative modifiers. And we don't have any units that they would need to overcharge against us anyway, as everything that has negative modifiers has a lower toughness value than plasma's strength of 7.[/quote]
Well Stealth Suits are T4 so S8 would wound them on 2s and have 2 wounds each so multiple damage would be good.

But yes many will just decide to not overcharge. The Skitarii player in my group already realised that advancing and then shooting at my Stealth Suits or Ghostkeel with his Assault Plasma isn't a great option. :D

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Lechai Skull
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Re: Designer's Commentary - 'FAQ' for 40k 8th!

Post#21 » Jun 18 2017 11:26

Well Stealth Suits are T4 so S8 would wound them on 2s and have 2 wounds each so multiple damage would be good.

But yes many will just decide to not overcharge. The Skitarii player in my group already realised that advancing and then shooting at my Stealth Suits or Ghostkeel with his Assault Plasma isn't a great option. :D


True, but if it was me, i wouldn't want a 33% chance of killing myself for a 50% chance of 1 shotting a stealth suit. Not a great investment unless i was desperate, or it was strategically critical.

Woad
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Re: Designer's Commentary - 'FAQ' for 40k 8th!

Post#22 » Jun 19 2017 06:22

Huh. Just realized that having 5+ markers on a target - assuming no negatives to hit - means you cannot possibly get a result of 1. Granted it's 1/36 normally since you'd reroll 1's, but it's a minor buff.

Or having a VT and firing at something with Fly but not Hard to Hit. VT on CIB suits, or VT+TL on Riptides or Ghostkeels with Ion, looks a little nicer in that light.

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Vector Strike
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Re: Designer's Commentary - 'FAQ' for 40k 8th!

Post#23 » Jun 19 2017 07:05

Woad wrote:Huh. Just realized that having 5+ markers on a target - assuming no negatives to hit - means you cannot possibly get a result of 1. Granted it's 1/36 normally since you'd reroll 1's, but it's a minor buff.

Or having a VT and firing at something with Fly but not Hard to Hit. VT on CIB suits, or VT+TL on Riptides or Ghostkeels with Ion, looks a little nicer in that light.


yeah, +1 to hit is better than +1BS

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QimRas
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Re: Designer's Commentary - 'FAQ' for 40k 8th!

Post#24 » Jun 20 2017 09:01

Vector Strike wrote:
Woad wrote:Huh. Just realized that having 5+ markers on a target - assuming no negatives to hit - means you cannot possibly get a result of 1. Granted it's 1/36 normally since you'd reroll 1's, but it's a minor buff.

Or having a VT and firing at something with Fly but not Hard to Hit. VT on CIB suits, or VT+TL on Riptides or Ghostkeels with Ion, looks a little nicer in that light.


yeah, +1 to hit is better than +1BS


So the Razorshark's quad Ion gets a +1 to hit against all non-flyers. Doesn't that mean it can fire it Overcharged without fear of taking a wound? That could be really good.

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Panzer
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Re: Designer's Commentary - 'FAQ' for 40k 8th!

Post#25 » Jun 20 2017 09:02

Not like our overcharge is that devastating anyway. It only causes a single mortal wound instead of just killing the model completely.
In return however overcharging rarely actually matters. The Razorshark overcharge is okay and so is the Pathfinder one, but units like Ghostkeel just sacrifice too many shots so it often results in the same damage just with an added risk for the user. ;)

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QimRas
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Re: Designer's Commentary - 'FAQ' for 40k 8th!

Post#26 » Jun 20 2017 09:18

Panzer wrote:Not like our overcharge is that devastating anyway. It only causes a single mortal wound instead of just killing the model completely.
In return however overcharging rarely actually matters. The Razorshark overcharge is okay and so is the Pathfinder one, but units like Ghostkeel just sacrifice too many shots so it often results in the same damage just with an added risk for the user. ;)



Well, the Strength change from 7 to 8 changes the to wound from a 5+ to a 4+ on vehicles on a Russ chassis, and from 4+ to 3+ on a Chimera chassis. Add to that the +1 to hit giving us effective BS 3+ and the Razorshark becomes a decent little tank hunter.

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Panzer
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Re: Designer's Commentary - 'FAQ' for 40k 8th!

Post#27 » Jun 20 2017 10:12

QimRas wrote:
Panzer wrote:Not like our overcharge is that devastating anyway. It only causes a single mortal wound instead of just killing the model completely.
In return however overcharging rarely actually matters. The Razorshark overcharge is okay and so is the Pathfinder one, but units like Ghostkeel just sacrifice too many shots so it often results in the same damage just with an added risk for the user. ;)



Well, the Strength change from 7 to 8 changes the to wound from a 5+ to a 4+ on vehicles on a Russ chassis, and from 4+ to 3+ on a Chimera chassis. Add to that the +1 to hit giving us effective BS 3+ and the Razorshark becomes a decent little tank hunter.

I know, but exchanging 6 shots for d6 shots (as for the Ghostkeel) really ruins it again. Any weapon where the normal mode has the maximum number of shots of the overcharged mode is very rarely worth overcharging.

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QimRas
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Re: Designer's Commentary - 'FAQ' for 40k 8th!

Post#28 » Jun 20 2017 10:24

Panzer wrote:
QimRas wrote:Well, the Strength change from 7 to 8 changes the to wound from a 5+ to a 4+ on vehicles on a Russ chassis, and from 4+ to 3+ on a Chimera chassis. Add to that the +1 to hit giving us effective BS 3+ and the Razorshark becomes a decent little tank hunter.

I know, but exchanging 6 shots for d6 shots (as for the Ghostkeel) really ruins it again. Any weapon where the normal mode has the maximum number of shots of the overcharged mode is very rarely worth overcharging.


Normal mode is Heavy 4 Str7 AP-1 D1. Overcharged is Heavy d6 Str8 AP-1 Dd3. So basically 50% change to get same or more shots. Admittedly I would have preferred you get 3+1d3, but its not too bad.

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