Review Request for Imperial Armor - Index: Xenos

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Arka0415
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Review Request for Imperial Armor - Index: Xenos

Post#1 » Jun 22 2017 09:41

As the title says! If someone with the new book could write up a review of the new Forgeworld Tau rules and how they think they'll fit into our new 8th Edition playstyle, that would be awesome!! Lots of us are eagerly waiting to hear about the new stuff. Thanks!

TheAnarchitect
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Re: Review Request for Imperial Armor - Index: Xenos

Post#2 » Jun 22 2017 10:37

Sure.

1st impressions: The special characters are pretty basic, each having a shield generator and some special weapons. I don't think the weapons are special enough to justify taking them a basic commander. For example, Shas'o R'myr is basically a commander with 2 plasma rifles, a shield generator, and his special flechette pod. He costs 14 points more than a similarly equipped commander, meaning basically that the flechette pod is a 14 point weapon that takes up the last slot. Given that i's basically an assault d6 bolter with a 6" range, or a melee weapon that doubles your attacks, but imposes a -1 strength penalty, I'm just not sure about that 14 point price tag, or the opportunity cost of not choosing your loadout. R'alai is harder to judge, as his weapons are more unique. I think he might have a place as a heavy hitter, but there is weird stuff there. He can reroll all failed hit rolls vs characters, but doesn't have sniper. His special marker drones are just like regular marker drones, except they're inexplicable good at close combat.

The specialty commander suits aren't that interesting. They give your commander unique options, but nothing you don't have access to cheaper on other units in your army.

Drones!

Technical drones are interesting. They have a 50/50 chance of repairing battlesuits, and only battlesuits, 1d3 wounds. I could see this being a thing with our bigger suits.

Remora stealth drones no longer have the ability to hover, or a markerlight, but they have a deepstrike capability and, more critically, the drone keyword. So a drone controller will help them. I think they'd pair great with a coldstar commander.

Heavy drones have 3 wounds and savior protocols. They might have a place defending units. A mixture of regular and heavy drones could have you toss all multi-wound shots on the gun drones, and all 1 wound shots on the heavy drones.

Battlesuits!

The XV9 hazards suits are deployed in squads of 1-3, and can manta strike. Monats are back, baby!

Riptide variants and Tau'nar are just too big and complex for me to understand skimming.

Vehicles!

Tetras come in twos and have a "High intensity markerlight" which adds 3 marker tokens per hit. I think this is awesome paired with other sources of markerlights. If you can get 2 marker tokens on a unit with pathfinders or marker drones, you can target that unit with the tetras to immediately bump it up to 5 tokens for that sweet +1 BS.

The variant Piranhas look like they might actually be worth it. They're about 60% more expensive than the regular Piranha, but have 1 more toughness, 1 more wound, and 1 better armor save.

Hammerhead variant turrets are basically what you'd expect from them.

The Barracuda AX-5-2 and the two Tiger shark variants look fun. Swiftstrike railguns are overcosted, I think, being weaker and shorter range than normal railguns but costing more. But the ability to drop drones looks fun, and the Tiger shark AX-10 gets the Heavy Rail cannon, which is a Macro weapon with a honking 18 strength and 2d6 Damage. And it gets two of them.

I think Orca dropship has interesting potential for deployment shenanigans. With 65 seats and the ability to carry XV8 crisis suits for 2 seats each, you could fit a sizeable force inside on of these. I'm talking 2 full squads of fire warriors, 2 squads of pathfinders with special weapons and drones, 2 full units of gun drones, 3 crisis suits with drone controller and flamers, and a Fireblade commander. All of this will count as a single deployment. And it almost doesn't matter where you deploy it, because you have a 55" move range. With -1 to hit while not hovering, toughness 8 and double digit wounds, it's not that fragile a basket to put all your eggs in, but it only has a 4+ armor save. Forget fish of fury, this is the whale of hatred.

Who cares what a Manta does, no one who has one has it because they want to use it in a game.

Fortifications!

Remote sensor towers have that high intensity markerlight thing tetras have. Slightly cheaper, may be more useful in a static gunline.

Drone sentry turrets are fortifications now, though the rules text forgets that and includes the line about not counting for mandatory troop choices. (This is one of several mistakes that suggest this was a rush job and never got a proper editor's pass.) Basically big immobile gun drones, including the requirement to target the nearest unit, and the ability to be boosted by a drone controller. Lost their ability to deep strike, so way less useful or cool than before.

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Vector Strike
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Re: Review Request for Imperial Armor - Index: Xenos

Post#3 » Jun 23 2017 12:00


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Arka0415
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Re: Review Request for Imperial Armor - Index: Xenos

Post#4 » Jun 23 2017 04:30

Thanks so much!! I guess I should pick up the book. Looks interesting.

TheAnarchitect wrote:1st impressions: The special characters are pretty basic, each having a shield generator and some special weapons. I don't think the weapons are special enough to justify taking them a basic commander. For example, Shas'o R'myr is basically a commander with 2 plasma rifles, a shield generator, and his special flechette pod. He costs 14 points more than a similarly equipped commander, meaning basically that the flechette pod is a 14 point weapon that takes up the last slot. Given that i's basically an assault d6 bolter with a 6" range, or a melee weapon that doubles your attacks, but imposes a -1 strength penalty, I'm just not sure about that 14 point price tag, or the opportunity cost of not choosing your loadout. R'alai is harder to judge, as his weapons are more unique. I think he might have a place as a heavy hitter, but there is weird stuff there. He can reroll all failed hit rolls vs characters, but doesn't have sniper. His special marker drones are just like regular marker drones, except they're inexplicable good at close combat.


Sounds like the characters are a wash. Any special rules worth mentioning?


TheAnarchitect wrote:Remora stealth drones no longer have the ability to hover, or a markerlight, but they have a deepstrike capability and, more critically, the drone keyword. So a drone controller will help them. I think they'd pair great with a coldstar commander.

Heavy drones have 3 wounds and savior protocols. They might have a place defending units. A mixture of regular and heavy drones could have you toss all multi-wound shots on the gun drones, and all 1 wound shots on the heavy drones.


These Drones each have two Burst Cannons right? Do they have the annoying targeting rules, or are they free to select targets? And finally, how does their points-efficiency compare to that of ordinary Gun Drones?

TheAnarchitect wrote:The XV9 hazards suits are deployed in squads of 1-3, and can manta strike. Monats are back, baby!


Is there any chance, any chance at all, that XV9s can compete with Commanders for points-efficiency? Or do Commanders still win out? It'd be great to find a unit that can fill that role instead.

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QimRas
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Re: Review Request for Imperial Armor - Index: Xenos

Post#5 » Jun 23 2017 04:49

TheAnarchitect wrote: Forget fish of fury, this is the whale of hatred.


I'm sorry, this needs called out as the epic statement that it is.

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Arka0415
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Re: Review Request for Imperial Armor - Index: Xenos

Post#6 » Jun 23 2017 05:50

QimRas wrote:
TheAnarchitect wrote: Forget fish of fury, this is the whale of hatred.


I'm sorry, this needs called out as the epic statement that it is.


"Whale of Hatred" has a nice, brutal sound to it. Love it. "Whale of Wrath" keeps the alliteration going though :P

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QimRas
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Re: Review Request for Imperial Armor - Index: Xenos

Post#7 » Jun 23 2017 06:04

Arka0415 wrote:
QimRas wrote:
TheAnarchitect wrote: Forget fish of fury, this is the whale of hatred.


I'm sorry, this needs called out as the epic statement that it is.


"Whale of Hatred" has a nice, brutal sound to it. Love it. "Whale of Wrath" keeps the alliteration going though :P


I think of it being about what your opponent feels when you use it. The Fish made people feel Fury. The Whale makes people feel Hate. Which I guess makes the Manta the "Ray of Jealousy"

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Gragagrogog
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Re: Review Request for Imperial Armor - Index: Xenos

Post#8 » Jun 23 2017 06:30

-Not a fan of the Tetra rules, The markerlight is BS4+ one shot, hit or miss all 3 tokens with 1 dice roll, with squad size 2-4 and having to anounce who shoots where before rolling any dice, this will be some clunky rolling... But the worst thing is probably the price, it used to be one of the most effective sources of ML, now they clock at 35.3 points per ML token average, which is more expensive than a droneport with FM or fireblade and pathfinders...
-Technical drones seem interesting, but they only repair D3 Wounds on a 4+ PER UNIT, not per drone. Can't repair vehicles so no Stormsurge repairing... I think they're worth it only if you can hide them out of LoS, with a static suit like R'Varna or Ta'unar.
-Orca has airborne, supersonic and hard to hit rules, but before moving it can choose to loose these 3 rules to Hover instead. The price seems reasonable at 373 pts. No more disembarking at the path it has moved through. So 1st turn you fly on a spot, disembarking on the second turn before moving, hoping the opponent won't react to 65 infantry/drones dropping there... I mean... Since the orca has T8/W14/4+ save, it's a very tempting target to destroy on turn 1 even with -1 to hit, considering you can kill 1/6th of the cargo that way. It's probably worthless if you can't get the first turn, though you should be able to since this can transport so much points in one deployment drop. (also can't take any seekers and it can transport up to 32 XV8 suits... I mean... I know it's less of a value since manta strike, but what did they smoke? :D)
-XV9 seem like valid alternative to XV8, not much better or worse, but other "small" suits are meh.
-Sentry turrets lost their ability to be deep strike deployed. (I don't remember exactly, but I know they had some deep strike equivalent.)

Some sentences in the index seem like they're written for 7th edition and some are pure nonsence, such as Tiger Shark AX-1-0 with a macro weapon, but not having a titanic keyword. RAW, you can only shoot a macro weapon if you don't move. If you move, you have to have Titanic keyword to shoot that turn. Tiger shark has minimum movement, so it can never shoot it's main weapon.

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Arka0415
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Re: Review Request for Imperial Armor - Index: Xenos

Post#9 » Jun 23 2017 07:16

QimRas wrote: I think of it being about what your opponent feels when you use it. The Fish made people feel Fury. The Whale makes people feel Hate. Which I guess makes the Manta the "Ray of Jealousy"


You mean the "Ray of Did-You-Strap-That-To-The-Top-Of-Your-Car?"

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Arka0415
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Re: Review Request for Imperial Armor - Index: Xenos

Post#10 » Jun 23 2017 07:18

Gragagrogog wrote:-Orca has airborne, supersonic and hard to hit rules, but before moving it can choose to loose these 3 rules to Hover instead. The price seems reasonable at 373 pts. No more disembarking at the path it has moved through. So 1st turn you fly on a spot, disembarking on the second turn before moving, hoping the opponent won't react to 65 infantry/drones dropping there... I mean... Since the orca has T8/W14/4+ save, it's a very tempting target to destroy on turn 1 even with -1 to hit, considering you can kill 1/6th of the cargo that way. It's probably worthless if you can't get the first turn, though you should be able to since this can transport so much points in one deployment drop. (also can't take any seekers and it can transport up to 32 XV8 suits... I mean... I know it's less of a value since manta strike, but what did they smoke? :D)


Auto first-turn. Bam. But then again, it has no offensive power on it's own...

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Re: Review Request for Imperial Armor - Index: Xenos

Post#11 » Jun 23 2017 07:44

Arka0415 wrote:Auto first-turn. Bam. But then again, it has no offensive power on it's own...


I'm considering that there is still the stupid steal the initiative rule, If your opponent somehow gets the first turn, probably nothing will be as juicy target as 14W orca full of 500+ point of mostly short range shooting troops. I'm not confident it will survive a turn of shooting if focused.

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Panzer
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Re: Review Request for Imperial Armor - Index: Xenos

Post#12 » Jun 23 2017 08:02

Gragagrogog wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:Auto first-turn. Bam. But then again, it has no offensive power on it's own...


I'm considering that there is still the stupid steal the initiative rule, If your opponent somehow gets the first turn, probably nothing will be as juicy target as 14W orca full of 500+ point of mostly short range shooting troops. I'm not confident it will survive a turn of shooting if focused.

Even if you get the first turn you wouldn't be able to do much since you'd have to disembark before moving anyway. :D

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Arka0415
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Re: Review Request for Imperial Armor - Index: Xenos

Post#13 » Jun 23 2017 08:09

Gragagrogog wrote:I'm considering that there is still the stupid steal the initiative rule, If your opponent somehow gets the first turn, probably nothing will be as juicy target as 14W orca full of 500+ point of mostly short range shooting troops. I'm not confident it will survive a turn of shooting if focused.


You're thinking too small! The whole army goes in the Orca :P

Panzer wrote:Even if you get the first turn you wouldn't be able to do much since you'd have to disembark before moving anyway. :D


Uh, then, use your Command Re-Roll on the enemy's damage?? I haven't thought out that far man! Anyway, though:

1 Orca.

65 Breachers.

The only strategy.

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Panzer
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Re: Review Request for Imperial Armor - Index: Xenos

Post#14 » Jun 23 2017 08:18

Arka0415 wrote:
Gragagrogog wrote:I'm considering that there is still the stupid steal the initiative rule, If your opponent somehow gets the first turn, probably nothing will be as juicy target as 14W orca full of 500+ point of mostly short range shooting troops. I'm not confident it will survive a turn of shooting if focused.


You're thinking too small! The whole army goes in the Orca :P

Panzer wrote:Even if you get the first turn you wouldn't be able to do much since you'd have to disembark before moving anyway. :D


Uh, then, use your Command Re-Roll on the enemy's damage?? I haven't thought out that far man! Anyway, though:

1 Orca.

65 Breachers.

The only strategy.

You can't re-roll an enemies roll lmao

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Arka0415
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Re: Review Request for Imperial Armor - Index: Xenos

Post#15 » Jun 23 2017 08:23

Panzer wrote:You can't re-roll an enemies roll lmao


Sure you can! Psychological conditioning, gaslighting, and a little Ethereal magic should do the trick nicely.

That, or just buy them a beer if they re-roll :D

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Panzer
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Re: Review Request for Imperial Armor - Index: Xenos

Post#16 » Jun 23 2017 08:26

Arka0415 wrote:
Panzer wrote:You can't re-roll an enemies roll lmao


Sure you can! Psychological conditioning, gaslighting, and a little Ethereal magic should do the trick nicely.

That, or just buy them a beer if they re-roll :D

Well you could also just punch them and take their models. If they don't have models on the table, they lose the game, no? :roll:

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Gragagrogog
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Re: Review Request for Imperial Armor - Index: Xenos

Post#17 » Jun 23 2017 08:33

Look where we got with the discussion :D

The disembarking before moving is that big of an issue if orca survives, you can move after that, and the orca has 14" x 10" ish footprint, can move+advance 80". The bigger issue is that you'll likely disembark in enemy turn, leaving you to rapid fire shooting and charges...

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Arka0415
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Re: Review Request for Imperial Armor - Index: Xenos

Post#18 » Jun 23 2017 09:13

Panzer wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:
Panzer wrote:You can't re-roll an enemies roll lmao


Sure you can! Psychological conditioning, gaslighting, and a little Ethereal magic should do the trick nicely.

That, or just buy them a beer if they re-roll :D

Well you could also just punch them and take their models. If they don't have models on the table, they lose the game, no? :roll:


See now you're thinking outside the box!

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