8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Use this area for all discussions of the "gaming" aspect of 40K/Tau.
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Vector Strike
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Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#19 » Jun 26 2017 09:39

I liked the flamer template, but the blast one is long gone and I'm not sad at all. Even worse, drop pod scatter roll. Every time someone used it, discussions regarding the correct angle would erupt.

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jagonchen
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Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#20 » Jun 26 2017 10:40

1) T'au not having a decent way to get a BS 3+ (At least Shas'vres should have BS 3+).
2) Drones and Breachers should be overwatching at 5+ (same as Drone Sentry Towers).
3) Nova reactor it should have a function just like Psy Powers activated a 6+, double 1s fail 1d3 wounds, double 6s activated but 1d3 wouds.
4) Burst Cannons on vehicles should have something else.
5) Seeker Missiles should be 1d3 and D Missiles should be 1d6 when shoot with 2 ML.
6) Skyray should be able to reload after using all missiles.
7) A unit to respawn drones.
8) For the Greater Good should be some kind of coordinated firepower (ALL models in at least 3 units firing at the same target +1 BS or re-roll 1s to wound or something like that).
10) Supporting fire (a.k.a FGG) shouldn't restrict overwatching once you use it.
9) JSJ
10) Firewarriors should be able to fallback and shoot on 6+
11) Ethereal powers: wind and water meh
12) Where is O'Kais!?
13) Shield Drones should be Save 3+/4++
14) Marker Lights shoud be:
x1 ML re-rolls 1s and shoot S.M. and D.M.
x2 -1 Cover Save and buffed S.M. and D.M
x3 +1 BS
x4 Move and Shoot
x5 AP +1
15) Pathfinders should get at least +1 in cover!
16) Sniper drones with rend.
17) Piranhas with ML.
18) DS8 Tactical Support Turret should just deployed and done... just leave it.
19) Homming beacon not being 20 pts!
20) to be continued :P

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Lechai Skull
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Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#21 » Jun 27 2017 01:07

jagonchen wrote:1) T'au not having a decent way to get a BS 3+ (At least Shas'vres should have BS 3+).
2) Drones and Breachers should be overwatching at 5+ (same as Drone Sentry Towers).
3) Nova reactor it should have a function just like Psy Powers activated a 6+, double 1s fail 1d3 wounds, double 6s activated but 1d3 wouds.
4) Burst Cannons on vehicles should have something else.
5) Seeker Missiles should be 1d3 and D Missiles should be 1d6 when shoot with 2 ML.
6) Skyray should be able to reload after using all missiles.
7) A unit to respawn drones.
8) For the Greater Good should be some kind of coordinated firepower (ALL models in at least 3 units firing at the same target +1 BS or re-roll 1s to wound or something like that).
10) Supporting fire (a.k.a FGG) shouldn't restrict overwatching once you use it.
9) JSJ
10) Firewarriors should be able to fallback and shoot on 6+
11) Ethereal powers: wind and water meh
12) Where is O'Kais!?
13) Shield Drones should be Save 3+/4++
14) Marker Lights shoud be:
x1 ML re-rolls 1s and shoot S.M. and D.M.
x2 -1 Cover Save and buffed S.M. and D.M
x3 +1 BS
x4 Move and Shoot
x5 AP +1
15) Pathfinders should get at least +1 in cover!
16) Sniper drones with rend.
17) Piranhas with ML.
18) DS8 Tactical Support Turret should just deployed and done... just leave it.
19) Homming beacon not being 20 pts!
20) to be continued :P

1. No, otherwise its too easy. But i agree that riptides and ghostkeels and y'vahra should be 3+. These are the elite of the elite.
2. No, we are already good at overwatch.
3. Id say increasing Stim to 5+ (for a cost increase) would be better at countering the reactor.
4.Totally agree, bursts on vehicles need to get AP-1.
5. disagree, that would be too strong. BUT seeker missiles should always hit on a 2+, D missiles at the users BS.
6. Skyray should replace its seeker missiles with HYMP equivalent.
7. Unit spawning is GONE. (look at tervigons and chaos demon summoning)
8. FTGG is already a thing...
9. Yes (even if limited), we need 'something' to do in the assault phase.
10. No. Just No
11. Yes ethereals need re-doing. GW need to make them psychers already.
12. who?
13. No, they are fine (and cheap) shhhhh
14. don't get me started on how butchered the markerlight rules are.
15. They should get either camouflage as an upgradable choice. but again they ARE a lot cheaper now.
16. OH MY WORD YES.
17. agree, though there ARE tetra's, but they suck too
18. Should be a mobile drone, it's bizzare why it itsn't.
19. Don't complain about this, other armies would KILL to take this for 20pts

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Atzilla
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Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#22 » Jun 27 2017 01:46

Ok, trying not to be too redundant.

  1. Tau stupid:
    1. Drones giving killpoints
    2. Markerlight table
    3. Having safe plasma because tau are smart
    4. Having a ton of unsafe Ion because, wait...
    5. Iconic JSJ gone
  2. General stupid:
    1. Vehicles in melee
    2. Flamers being terrible, except for Anti-Air
    3. D3/D6 everything, come on GW learn proper balancing, stop hiding behind randomness so no one notices.
    4. Shots resolved one at a time really drag on the game if you actually follow RAW.
tbc

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Vio'ra Mal'caor
Shas'La
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Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#23 » Jun 27 2017 02:13

Almost everything they have done to us is bad. Sure, games are 'more' balanced (For a change), and are much quicker. But a lot of the charm of playing the Tau is gone. We've lost Signature systems, making our Crisis Shas'vre pretty much a waste of points now. Shield Drones are now just robotic body-shields, and cannot shield the user. EMP grenades are gone, making it even harder to take out Imperial vehicles using infantry-based armies. But even when we weren't level with the other factions, I still had a lot of funny losses, despite winning more often than not.

To be frank, I can see where GW is coming from. Quite a few gamers were upset that many races were more OP, Tau included. But their choice of pushing the reset button wasn't the best way to do it. I mean, sure: it did the trick. But in the process they actually bugged up the game, and also removed a significant chunk of content from pretty much every race. If someone comes into a doctor's office with a minor case of sunburn, you don't give them plastic surgery. The same applies for this: The game was unbalanced, but the writers at GW decided to make the game more basic unnecessarily.

As a relatively new gamer, I admittedly have a lot to learn. Even back in 5th, I usually played with my brother and a few players in my local area. There was no nearby GW outlet, and the nearest gaming store was about ten kilometers away. But in my shortish time playing 7th edition, I felt that I found the game to be new and exciting. When 8th edition details started to be released, my excitement faded. At the time, I panicked (as my posts from that period suggest). However, I now realise that it wasn't the changes to the normal game (scatter die were mostly unfair to me). It was the fact that the Tau, my long time adored faction, had been given the equivalent of a messed-up organ transplant. They took the stuff I loved, and chopped it to pieces, before reassembling it as a unrecognisable mess.

To be fair, I think the writers at GW (with the exception of C.S. Goto and Matthew Ward) were doing their jobs just fine this time. But I think that 8th edition could of done with some more forethought, and less of a rushed release with major loopholes and issues with the rules. The thing I'm most pissed about is our faction's rebranding from Tau empire to T'au empire. There is literally no need to do that. Does America randomly rebrand itself as A'merica?? What reason would the Tau Empire rename itself the T'au Empire??? So yeah, I am pissed with GW for messing up the Tau. So yeah. End of diatribe.
For the Tau'va ATT!!!

Ricordis
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 334

Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#24 » Jun 27 2017 08:43

Tau Empire rebranding into T'au Empire is one of the few things i really like as the homeworld always was T'au.
That is like we would found the Ea'rth aliance while living on Earth. Looked always like a typo to me ^^

The Ghostkeels holofield only working from 12"+ is also logical for me...that is one huge suit. Try to stealth that in melee.
(T'au stealth is still not invisibility but active scanner jamming and camouflage)
But I miss the counter-measures on them. I even magnetized that thing on their back to show if that model has used it's counter-measures. That was one huge game-changing rule they had (at least for me).

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jagonchen
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Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#25 » Jun 27 2017 10:17

Lechai Skull wrote:
jagonchen wrote:1) T'au not having a decent way to get a BS 3+ (At least Shas'vres should have BS 3+).
2) Drones and Breachers should be overwatching at 5+ (same as Drone Sentry Towers).
3) Nova reactor it should have a function just like Psy Powers activated a 6+, double 1s fail 1d3 wounds, double 6s activated but 1d3 wouds.
4) Burst Cannons on vehicles should have something else.
5) Seeker Missiles should be 1d3 and D Missiles should be 1d6 when shoot with 2 ML.
6) Skyray should be able to reload after using all missiles.
7) A unit to respawn drones.
8) For the Greater Good should be some kind of coordinated firepower (ALL models in at least 3 units firing at the same target +1 BS or re-roll 1s to wound or something like that).
10) Supporting fire (a.k.a FGG) shouldn't restrict overwatching once you use it.
9) JSJ
10) Firewarriors should be able to fallback and shoot on 6+
11) Ethereal powers: wind and water meh
12) Where is O'Kais!?
13) Shield Drones should be Save 3+/4++
14) Marker Lights shoud be:
x1 ML re-rolls 1s and shoot S.M. and D.M.
x2 -1 Cover Save and buffed S.M. and D.M
x3 +1 BS
x4 Move and Shoot
x5 AP +1
15) Pathfinders should get at least +1 in cover!
16) Sniper drones with rend.
17) Piranhas with ML.
18) DS8 Tactical Support Turret should just deployed and done... just leave it.
19) Homming beacon not being 20 pts!
20) to be continued :P

1. No, otherwise its too easy. But i agree that riptides and ghostkeels and y'vahra should be 3+. These are the elite of the elite.
2. No, we are already good at overwatch.
3. Id say increasing Stim to 5+ (for a cost increase) would be better at countering the reactor.
4.Totally agree, bursts on vehicles need to get AP-1.
5. disagree, that would be too strong. BUT seeker missiles should always hit on a 2+, D missiles at the users BS.
6. Skyray should replace its seeker missiles with HYMP equivalent.
7. Unit spawning is GONE. (look at tervigons and chaos demon summoning)
8. FTGG is already a thing...
9. Yes (even if limited), we need 'something' to do in the assault phase.
10. No. Just No
11. Yes ethereals need re-doing. GW need to make them psychers already.
12. who?
13. No, they are fine (and cheap) shhhhh
14. don't get me started on how butchered the markerlight rules are.
15. They should get either camouflage as an upgradable choice. but again they ARE a lot cheaper now.
16. OH MY WORD YES.
17. agree, though there ARE tetra's, but they suck too
18. Should be a mobile drone, it's bizzare why it itsn't.
19. Don't complain about this, other armies would KILL to take this for 20pts


hehehe even though few points seem op... i'm just pointing the things that i don't like and i'd like to change.

21) pulse carabines on firewarrios...let me have at least the underslug photon granade launcher give some extra rule to the photon granades.

...and o'kais is the 3rd big commander paired to shadowsun and farsight.

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Yojimbob
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Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#26 » Jun 27 2017 12:14

I think the big thing people need to keep in mind is that this isn't 7th edition any longer. Most people are thinking back to 7th where we had a few more tricks because of our markerlights and we basically always hit and wounded on 2's. As I can attest there are VERY FEW armies that have models that can do this let alone an entire army list like we did with lots of big dumb suits. Lots of other armies are experiencing the exact same thing where they feel "nerfed" from the previous edition where in actuality it's just a different play style and different rule set from 7th to 8th. Play some games, take some stuff you like. If you grab points efficient units and have a game plan you'll likely find yourself in a strong position to win most games. We can build low model count high ROF suit lists or mass infantry gun lines and both are equally viable now. The markerlight change is a nerf in some regards and a massive massive buff in others. Once you hit that magical +5 you have a bucket of guys who are able to dump shots on a single target all receiving the added bonuses. Just keep an open mind and realize this is a new edition but how you win it is mostly the same. You just may use different stuff to do it. :D

pilky
Shas'La
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Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#27 » Jun 27 2017 12:38

Yeah, I'm not sure I quite agree with many of the complaints. Overall there is very little I dislike about 8th in general. It streamlined and simplified a LOT of stuff in a very good way, removing complexity for the sake of complexity and allowing the player more chance to shine through tactics.

And yes, Tau have been needed in places (that they need it) but it's not terrible. I had my first game of 8th last night against a death wing army and they managed to do pretty well. A dreadnought charged a squad of FWs and they survived, and could then fall back allowing my other units to shoot. I took far fewer markerlights than I would normally take and ended up feeling I could have spread them out even more than I did, which left more room for other stuff. I took Vespid and XV9s for the first time in a non-"take the naff just units for fun" game and they did incredibly well. And then gun drones… holy crap are they really worth taking now?

Sure we don't get to JSJ or the ability markerlight ourselves up to BS5+ with ignores cover, but on the other hand we gained reliable deep striking, faster movement, arguably much better suit systems, the ability to survive close combat (and almost universally fall back and still shoot), and (most importantly IMO) the best internal balance we've had in all the time I've been playing 40k.

I suspect things will get a lot more interesting when we get a codex and have our own relics, our own warlord traits, our own tactical objectives, and quite possibly fixes for the things we don't feel work (as GW is very obviously listening a lot more to player feedback)

[end positivity]



Seriously though, gimme my super broken Sniper Drones back! :P

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QimRas
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Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#28 » Jun 27 2017 02:43

One more thing to add that I just thought of.

With Blast Templates gone, there are no ways to do damage to multiple units, regardless of how close the units are together.

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Maxwell
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Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#29 » Jun 27 2017 07:23

QimRas wrote:One more thing to add that I just thought of.

With Blast Templates gone, there are no ways to do damage to multiple units, regardless of how close the units are together.


The whole thing really doesn't make sense. The "blast" being just a number of hits is weird. A dozen models all base to base or one model and it's still d6 hits.

IMO they should've balanced around an "X models in unit" type thing. But I guess that adds complication.

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QimRas
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Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#30 » Jun 27 2017 07:40

Maxwell wrote:
QimRas wrote:One more thing to add that I just thought of.

With Blast Templates gone, there are no ways to do damage to multiple units, regardless of how close the units are together.


The whole thing really doesn't make sense. The "blast" being just a number of hits is weird. A dozen models all base to base or one model and it's still d6 hits.

IMO they should've balanced around an "X models in unit" type thing. But I guess that adds complication.


I would like some way to hit multiple squads come back, but I am honestly not sure what it would look like right now.

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Vector Strike
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Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#31 » Jun 27 2017 08:19

QimRas wrote:
Maxwell wrote:
QimRas wrote:One more thing to add that I just thought of.

With Blast Templates gone, there are no ways to do damage to multiple units, regardless of how close the units are together.


The whole thing really doesn't make sense. The "blast" being just a number of hits is weird. A dozen models all base to base or one model and it's still d6 hits.

IMO they should've balanced around an "X models in unit" type thing. But I guess that adds complication.


I would like some way to hit multiple squads come back, but I am honestly not sure what it would look like right now.


You can only do it now firing different weapons. With old Target Locks for everyone, they might have thought it was redundant with old blast weapons hitting more than one unit

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Panzer
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Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#32 » Jun 28 2017 01:07

Atzilla wrote:[*]Vehicles in melee

What's the problem? Seems very plausible the way it works to me, except maybe the fact that they can't fall back&shoot unless they have the right keyword or special rule (seriously, a Vehicle doesn't care whether a target is 1m or 10m away lol)

Atzilla wrote:[*]Flamers being terrible, except for Anti-Air

Laughing so hard right now. :D
Flamer are one of the best weapons imo.

Atzilla wrote:[*]Shots resolved one at a time really drag on the game if you actually follow RAW.[/list][/list]
tbc

That's why there are also rules for Fast Dice Rolling.

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Atzilla
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Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#33 » Jun 28 2017 03:45

Panzer wrote:What's the problem? Seems very plausible the way it works to me, except maybe the fact that they can't fall back&shoot unless they have the right keyword or special rule (seriously, a Vehicle doesn't care whether a target is 1m or 10m away lol)

Laughing so hard right now. :D
Flamer are one of the best weapons imo.

That's why there are also rules for Fast Dice Rolling.


The way vehicles join in melee just looks stupid to me, just a matter of personal taste I guess.

Flamers are not good, maybe if they had 2D6 attacks and/or wall of death they'd be worthwhile, but we have another thread for that.

I know about fast dice rolling, but had a misconception how attack cycling works (thought you had to check los and range for each attack again, when in fact it is done once before attacks are resolved), so nothing to see here :D

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Panzer
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Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#34 » Jun 28 2017 03:51

Atzilla wrote:Flamers are not good, maybe if they had 2D6 attacks and/or wall of death they'd be worthwhile, but we have another thread for that.

Considering that Flamers are auto-hits, it basically equals 2d6 shots at BS4+ anyway. Plus they completely ignore to-hit modifier like Stealth Suits, Tyranid/Space Wolve psychic power, hard-to-hit special rule, smoke launcher, etc.

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Arka0415
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Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#35 » Jun 28 2017 04:21

Panzer wrote:
Atzilla wrote:[*]Vehicles in melee

What's the problem? Seems very plausible the way it works to me, except maybe the fact that they can't fall back&shoot unless they have the right keyword or special rule (seriously, a Vehicle doesn't care whether a target is 1m or 10m away lol)


If you imagine the crew of a small tank or APC surrounded by enemies with grenades and close-combat weapons, trying to close hatches, fight off boarders, and keep the tank running, I guess you can imagine how they'd be far too busy to do anything but throw that thing in reverse and pull out!

Panzer wrote:
Atzilla wrote:[*]Flamers being terrible, except for Anti-Air

Laughing so hard right now. :D
Flamer are one of the best weapons imo.


The fact that flamers are allowed to shoot planes is a little weird! But I think I'll take the new usability of flamers vs. vehicles and multi-wound models over the old template. The template was cool though. Anyway, definitely one of the top weapons if it's on a unit that likes to get close and personal... especially assault infantry.

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StealthKnightSteg
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Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#36 » Jun 28 2017 08:29

So far as I have read the rules and experienced one game of 8th edition (in fact 1 game in 40k total)

Drones needing to do Morale check at a crappy Ld6 (if you are not near an ethereal) like why? they are drones, do they feel the need to flee when they see their buddy drone go down and need to run off and cry in a corner?

Also the Kill point thing would bother me with the Support drones taken by other units.. I don't mind on the seperate fielded drone units

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