8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Use this area for all discussions of the "gaming" aspect of 40K/Tau.
knute
Shas'Saal
Posts: 130

Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#37 » Jun 28 2017 09:08

Given how expensive, yet relatively fragile, Piranhas have become, I think it's silly that they don't convey the Hard to Hit debuff to enemy shooting, particularly since they were previously a fast skimmer (+1 to cover when moving fast).

BS 4+ elite choices for us are silly, particularly since Guard get BS3+ troop choices that deep strike for only like 9 points a model (Tempestus Scions).

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Overheal
Shas'Saal
Posts: 156

Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#38 » Jun 28 2017 01:43

So oddly, the small FW stuff like Technical Drones have very useful purposes now.

Each unit of 2 tech drones can heal nearby <Battlesuit> units, D3 wounds on a 4+

The Tau'nar is a <Battlesuit> ....

xerxeshavelock
Shas'Saal
Posts: 8

Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#39 » Jun 29 2017 03:14

Overheal wrote:So oddly, the small FW stuff like Technical Drones have very useful purposes now.

Each unit of 2 tech drones can heal nearby <Battlesuit> units, D3 wounds on a 4+

The Tau'nar is a <Battlesuit> ....

Thing is - in a manner of speaking, so can a Gun Drone.....it can proactively 'cure' D6 wounds from a Lascannon, for example.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2368

Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#40 » Jun 29 2017 03:31

xerxeshavelock wrote:
Overheal wrote:So oddly, the small FW stuff like Technical Drones have very useful purposes now.

Each unit of 2 tech drones can heal nearby <Battlesuit> units, D3 wounds on a 4+

The Tau'nar is a <Battlesuit> ....

Thing is - in a manner of speaking, so can a Gun Drone.....it can proactively 'cure' D6 wounds from a Lascannon, for example.

Well d'uh. Any Drone can do that. But only technical Drones can actually heal wounds.

Ash87
Shas'Saal
Posts: 43

Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#41 » Jun 29 2017 04:27

I mean, thing 1, that I think everyone should go write on GW's Facebook, like right now: in gold letters, is the markerlight table.

5 markers to get that +1 BS is just awful. I'd much prefer it be 3 markers. The fact that BS 3+ is so common, just makes it a pain that the shootiest army in the game, has to climb such a steep slope to get to Normal for most everyone else.

Nova Charge. The 1 mortal wound thing is a kick in the knee. It actually stopped me from buying a riptide I'd been saving up for. At this point, I'm much more likely to buy the Forgeworld variety over the standard one. It's just too damned expensive for what it does.

Someone had mentioned that large blast templates should be 2d6 against groups with greater than 5 models, and reading that... I really like that idea.

Kind of wish Airburst was like the Flechette launcher from Forgeworlds and had a pistol profile, I'd actually legitimately consider taking it, at that point.

Edit: Also, Snipers. I think the Firesight Marksman is more useful, than the sniper unit he's supposed to be supporting. It's probably that chance to hit, if you could reasonably hit with the snipers, I think I could live with having a higher volume of fire sniper, otherwise... as it is now, I'd never take one.

Also, this is a bit more vague, but just... something. Loosing JSJ isn't as big for me, because the fly back from combat thing is still pretty good IMO. Thing is, T'au are really only worth while in 2 phases of the turn: Movement and Shooting. The fact that we are sitting around during Pyschic and Combat phases now (As we have 0 chance to negate psychic rolls now)... I don't know. I imagine it'll be better when we get the codex, but it's just a Long wait getting to that point.

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Forge
Shas
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Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#42 » Jun 30 2017 09:54

pilky wrote:Yeah, I'm not sure I quite agree with many of the complaints. Overall there is very little I dislike about 8th in general. It streamlined and simplified a LOT of stuff in a very good way, removing complexity for the sake of complexity and allowing the player more chance to shine through tactics.

And yes, Tau have been needed in places (that they need it) but it's not terrible. I had my first game of 8th last night against a death wing army and they managed to do pretty well. A dreadnought charged a squad of FWs and they survived, and could then fall back allowing my other units to shoot. I took far fewer markerlights than I would normally take and ended up feeling I could have spread them out even more than I did, which left more room for other stuff. I took Vespid and XV9s for the first time in a non-"take the naff just units for fun" game and they did incredibly well. And then gun drones… holy crap are they really worth taking now?

Sure we don't get to JSJ or the ability markerlight ourselves up to BS5+ with ignores cover, but on the other hand we gained reliable deep striking, faster movement, arguably much better suit systems, the ability to survive close combat (and almost universally fall back and still shoot), and (most importantly IMO) the best internal balance we've had in all the time I've been playing 40k.

I suspect things will get a lot more interesting when we get a codex and have our own relics, our own warlord traits, our own tactical objectives, and quite possibly fixes for the things we don't feel work (as GW is very obviously listening a lot more to player feedback)

[end positivity]



Seriously though, gimme my super broken Sniper Drones back! :P


This was a very inspiring post for me.

I also returned to 40k now in 8th after stopping early into 6th. Back when I started in 5th, Tau had a very old codex, and I was struggling in my meta to, at least, not be tabled. Slowly I learned to focus my strengths, work around my weaknesses and build a list that could match my opponents and even beat some.

I was hopeful for 8th, was disappointed at its non-elegant simplicity, but ended up having fun. So yeah, I'm willing to work around our new weaknesses and find new strengths and continue having fun for the Greater Good.

Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 166

Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#43 » Jun 30 2017 10:28

Forge wrote:
This was a very inspiring post for me.

I also returned to 40k now in 8th after stopping early into 6th. Back when I started in 5th, Tau had a very old codex, and I was struggling in my meta to, at least, not be tabled. Slowly I learned to focus my strengths, work around my weaknesses and build a list that could match my opponents and even beat some.

I was hopeful for 8th, was disappointed at its non-elegant simplicity, but ended up having fun. So yeah, I'm willing to work around our new weaknesses and find new strengths and continue having fun for the Greater Good.


Glad you found it inspiring! Definitely need to see more games but in my fairly competitive meta Tau are looking just fine. Super excited for our book and see what goodies we can get. :biggrin:

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Pilchard
Shas
Posts: 28

Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#44 » Jun 30 2017 06:16

A few things i like/dislike on from playtesting/in general, mostly dislike though

Like:

The fly special rule most of our units get
Infantry been a viable choice
Drones protecting our big stuff
Markerlights been universal

Dislike:

Poor markerlight table where option 2-4 are mostly useless, 2 can only work if you actually run stormsurge/Seekers, 3 cant rely on this for big stuff so target lock becomes staple choice and this again has little use, 4 cover plays little part in the game with units needing to be fully in it and big stuff 50% obscured.

Riptides really overcosted compared to other codexs/yvahras, now with the riptide wing gone and multiple damage weapons there was no need for the massive point increase, there not as tough and the damage output is awful compared to predators/assault cannon razorbacks/other units. Shame i have three il never use

Our commander twinlinked rule and ethereal reroll promoting static play when other armies can sit there with hqs rerolling 1's all the time with the movement. don't get me started on gulliman.

Overcosted weapons like the railgun which we seem to pay for because its str10 but only 1 shot, still wounding 95% of its correct targets on 3's. Pulse driver cannon why is it over 100pts for a d3 shot lascannon with poorer to hit

Fw xenos been a complete mess, tigershark we cant use, hammerheads more points than original, everything overcosted in comparison, tetras nearly useless, only thing going for it are the hazard suits and the riptide variants

Again everything overcosted in our index, promotes spamming drones/commanders/maybe crisis with right loadout, no mixture in play if you to be competitive, i could be wrong here though as the meta plays out

I could go on but it id just be repeating myself more than i have here.

Seems other armies especially imperium have access to a lot better firepower, better auras and contribute in 2 phases we don't use, i am trying to make tau work and i wont give up, i just hope our codex changes a lot of things and maybe the new fw book adds new units/updated rules.

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QimRas
Shas'Saal
Posts: 199

Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#45 » Jun 30 2017 07:29

Pilchard wrote: hammerheads more points than original,


To add to the oddity of this, the Hammerhead variants are the same Power Level as the standard Hammerheads.

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QimRas
Shas'Saal
Posts: 199

Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#46 » Jul 03 2017 12:32

It would be nice to see the same system the Deathstike uses to hit multiple units applied to other blast weapons. Maybe not as mortal wounds, but some kind of secondary hit. Especially for bombers.

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Sykes
Shas
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Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#47 » Jul 03 2017 03:19

I disagree with most of the changes in the Tau index, but I do get the impression that there were a lot of overriding requirements that the new rules had to fit (no mixed toughness units, character changes etc). And unfortunately Tau seem to have been hit harder than any other faction by this. It doesn't help that the person who wrote the tau index doesn't seem to 'get' Tau. Most changes I can stomach, but these are the changes I fundamentally disagree with (in increasing order of disagreement):

Seeker missiles - I get that this is how we are supposed to get mortal wounds since we lack psychic ability. But I honestly would have preferred the same profile as a hunter-killer missile. At least give the poor Skyray some kind of reload ability (sacrifice shooting+movement for a turn to regain d6 seekers?).

Markerlights - This one is a real slap to the face as we effectively pay a massive tax just to get to the levels of accuracy that most armies get for free. Most armies hit on a 3+ natively and re-rolling 1's is pretty easy to come by. Seeker missiles used to hit on a 2+ with lights, now it's just normal BS so that's a nerf. And given how hard cover is to get unless you're infantry, 4 markerlights isn't worth it unless you're aiming for 5. Markerlights were always supposed to take Tau from being a sub-par shooting force to an excellent one. Now it's just sub-par to normal.

The new drones rules - Drones shouldn't have changed at all, if they remained part of the squad then they would still be ablative wounds, you wouldn't need a special rule to allocate wounds to them, shield drones would still be useful, they wouldn't give up easy kill points, utility drones would still be useful, and you wouldn't be able to abuse the rules by using a cloud of drones to keep one suit alive indefinitely. The only positive part of this is that drones can now easily capture objectives without you sacrificing your suits.

No monat crisis suits - This is a personal one, since monat crisis wing is how I've run lists for years and I loved playing my army this way. There was no reason or need for this change and it just cuts into a popular play-style. I know plenty of people may not get this or care - but imagine if GW removed marine combat squads and forced you to buy them in squads of ten - there would (quite rightly) be hell to pay.

No JSJ - Also a personal one and by far and and away the worst change to Tau (IMO) since they were introduced as a faction. It was the single most important rule for battlesuits, as they needed it to use their weapons (mostly 18") effectively and not get bogged down in assault. Given how easy it is to get into assault now, Tau suits needed to get faster, not slower. And the fly rule is poor compensation, being able to retreat from assault and still shoot does NOT make up for the fact that you are far more likely to get caught in it and wiped out.

But what bothers me the most is the way the army feels and plays on the table top now. JSJ was my favorite thing about Tau because it was skillful and rewarding. You were constantly dancing into gun range and out of assault range. If you played well, you could string along your opponent who could never catch you. If you failed, then you got caught in assault and wiped out. I don't care if I can win competitions or not. I care if I can play a faction the way I want to play it in a way that is skillful and rewarding. I feel that has been taken away from Tau. From the 8th ed games I've played (quite a few now) Tau feel like just another gunline army now, albeit with a few shooting gimmicks and bad melee ability. They're no longer the ultra-mobile, hit-and-run style army that I loved.

Even if suits had to pay to get this ability back, that would make me happy. Like a support system that allowed suits with the 'jetpack' rule to move 2d6 in the assault phase - that would be an appropriate trade-off of lethality (a potential extra weapon) for extra durability and movement. But as it stands, they way I like to play Tau just simply isn't possible any more.

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Kakapo42
Shas'Vre
Posts: 884

Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#48 » Jul 04 2017 02:05

Sykes wrote:Seeker missiles - I get that this is how we are supposed to get mortal wounds since we lack psychic ability. But I honestly would have preferred the same profile as a hunter-killer missile. At least give the poor Skyray some kind of reload ability (sacrifice shooting+movement for a turn to regain d6 seekers?).


I've been thinking about this myself recently, and have come to a similar conclusion. While the idea of them inflicting automatic critical hits is interesting, I can't help but feel like it ultimately leaves them without an optimal target. In the past seeker missiles have always been an anti-vehicle weapon (and thus also intended for other large targets as well, in theory at least), but under the current setup they can't really inflict enough damage on large targets on their own. On the other hand, one would think that the ability to inflict automatic critical hits would make them an ideal weapon against enemy characters, but the current targeting rules mean that it's difficult to hit characters with them if there are intervening units in the way.

You could use multiple seeker missiles on a single target, but that ends up providing disproportionately low returns. In previous editions I only need one seeker missile to knock out an enemy vehicle or medium-sized T4 unit (in theory at least), which means I can potentially get one meaningful kill per seeker missile. In other words, if I bring 8 seeker missiles on my 4 Devilfish (not an insignificant investment), I can conceivably knock out 8 significant targets. In 8th edition, I need to bring over twice as many seeker missiles to conceivably knock out only two significant targets. It just isn't very economical. The Skyray in particular gets hit especially hard by this - it's supposed to be the premier Tau anti-aircraft unit, but with the current seeker missile rules it can only realistically shoot down one air unit per game, if it's lucky.

Sykes wrote:But what bothers me the most is the way the army feels and plays on the table top now. JSJ was my favorite thing about Tau because it was skillful and rewarding. You were constantly dancing into gun range and out of assault range. If you played well, you could string along your opponent who could never catch you. If you failed, then you got caught in assault and wiped out. I don't care if I can win competitions or not. I care if I can play a faction the way I want to play it in a way that is skillful and rewarding. I feel that has been taken away from Tau. From the 8th ed games I've played (quite a few now) Tau feel like just another gunline army now, albeit with a few shooting gimmicks and bad melee ability. They're no longer the ultra-mobile, hit-and-run style army that I loved.

Even if suits had to pay to get this ability back, that would make me happy. Like a support system that allowed suits with the 'jetpack' rule to move 2d6 in the assault phase - that would be an appropriate trade-off of lethality (a potential extra weapon) for extra durability and movement. But as it stands, they way I like to play Tau just simply isn't possible any more.


Oddly enough your sentiments here are eerily reminiscent of my own in Warhammer Fantasy when the 8th edition Wood Elf army book was released (Wood Elves being my main army in Warhammer Fantasy). Your comments about JSJ and your preferred playstyle even mirror my own feelings about the Asrai Archery Wood Elf special rule (which was a major factor in why I never adopted the 8th edition Wood Elf army book).
A Shas and a Kor walk into a bar...
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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#49 » Jul 04 2017 02:25

Kakapo42 wrote:
Sykes wrote:But what bothers me the most is the way the army feels and plays on the table top now. JSJ was my favorite thing about Tau because it was skillful and rewarding. You were constantly dancing into gun range and out of assault range. If you played well, you could string along your opponent who could never catch you. If you failed, then you got caught in assault and wiped out. I don't care if I can win competitions or not. I care if I can play a faction the way I want to play it in a way that is skillful and rewarding. I feel that has been taken away from Tau. From the 8th ed games I've played (quite a few now) Tau feel like just another gunline army now, albeit with a few shooting gimmicks and bad melee ability. They're no longer the ultra-mobile, hit-and-run style army that I loved.

Even if suits had to pay to get this ability back, that would make me happy. Like a support system that allowed suits with the 'jetpack' rule to move 2d6 in the assault phase - that would be an appropriate trade-off of lethality (a potential extra weapon) for extra durability and movement. But as it stands, they way I like to play Tau just simply isn't possible any more.


Oddly enough your sentiments here are eerily reminiscent of my own in Warhammer Fantasy when the 8th edition Wood Elf army book was released (Wood Elves being my main army in Warhammer Fantasy). Your comments about JSJ and your preferred playstyle even mirror my own feelings about the Asrai Archery Wood Elf special rule (which was a major factor in why I never adopted the 8th edition Wood Elf army book).

Heh, ask me and my Tomb Kings. Sure they got some fancy new units in 8th, but it wasn't really what it used to be anymore. Well I didn't like 8th fantasy anyway, neither did my local community so most stopped playing and then they dropped AoS and stopped supporting Tomb Kings...so now I'm here. :D

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Posts: 945

Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#50 » Jul 04 2017 05:51

Sykes wrote:No monat crisis suits - This is a personal one, since monat crisis wing is how I've run lists for years and I loved playing my army this way. There was no reason or need for this change and it just cuts into a popular play-style. I know plenty of people may not get this or care - but imagine if GW removed marine combat squads and forced you to buy them in squads of ten - there would (quite rightly) be hell to pay.


They're baaaaack! Or at least, one per army anyway. Check out the new FAQ!

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2368

Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#51 » Jul 04 2017 06:09

Arka0415 wrote:
Sykes wrote:No monat crisis suits - This is a personal one, since monat crisis wing is how I've run lists for years and I loved playing my army this way. There was no reason or need for this change and it just cuts into a popular play-style. I know plenty of people may not get this or care - but imagine if GW removed marine combat squads and forced you to buy them in squads of ten - there would (quite rightly) be hell to pay.


They're baaaaack! Or at least, one per army anyway. Check out the new FAQ!

Only if you decide to exploit a rule that's aimed at beginner who don't have a whole army yet though.

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Gragagrogog
Shas'La
Posts: 291

Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#52 » Jul 04 2017 06:26

What worries me more that in order to use the rule, I'll have to sell my models, I think I can make a suitable arrangement with my brother though.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Posts: 945

Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#53 » Jul 04 2017 06:33

Panzer wrote:Only if you decide to exploit a rule that's aimed at beginner who don't have a whole army yet though.


Is there in fact a rule that says this?

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2368

Re: 8th Edition Rules, Mechanics and Concepts you don't like

Post#54 » Jul 04 2017 06:37

Arka0415 wrote:
Panzer wrote:Only if you decide to exploit a rule that's aimed at beginner who don't have a whole army yet though.


Is there in fact a rule that says this?

It's in the wording.
It says "Sometimes you may find that you do not have enough models to field a minimum-sized unit; if this is the case, you can still include on unit of that type in your army with as many models as you have available."

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