New 8th FAQ

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thesnailmaster
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Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#109 » Jul 10 2017 03:58

Elphiel wrote:The rule says "...other friendly ...". Other is the important part here. The Rule is Longstrikes equivalent of an aura buff because he is an HQ character linke Ethereals, Firebaldes and so on. The Idea is clearly that Longstrike is leading his fellow Hammerhead Gunships and providing them with superior Target data -> their chance to hit is increased.
.



Emm they FAQ't the word other out, so the debate now is all based on keywords.

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Unusualsuspect
Kroot'Ui
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Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#110 » Jul 10 2017 04:02

Elphiel wrote:RAI would be completely otherwise.
If the intend was, that Longstrike keeps his 2+ BS even if he moved, he would get a special rule especially for that, like Markerdrone for example.
The rule says "...other friendly ...". Other is the important part here. The Rule is Longstrikes equivalent of an aura buff because he is an HQ character linke Ethereals, Firebaldes and so on. The Idea is clearly that Longstrike is leading his fellow Hammerhead Gunships and providing them with superior Target data -> their chance to hit is increased.

I would never weight the argument of a player with competetive thinking for "rules as intended"-stuff. GW rules where at first always a try to translate fluff and background information about a unit into playable rules. Only with the new 8th Edition where GW did the mistake to invite competitive players to contribulte to these rules, gets everything ruined.

Better imbalanced but logical rules then balanced rules that don't make sense from a story telling point of view.


Check the FAQ. the word "other" from Longstrike's ability was removed, so the aura now affects TX7 Hammerhead Gunships.

The question being vehemently discussed is whether the Tx7 Hammerhead Gunship noted in the rule is a unit name (and so would only ever apply to an index Hammerhead) or a keyword that is lacking in the bold/capitalized formatting (and so would apply to Longstrike, since his aura is worded not to exclude himself and he has the TX7 HAMMERHEAD GUNSHIP keyword).

The RAI on that is disputed, apparently. I have my own thoughts on what RAI is, but I actually do intellectually understand the other side's arguments on RAI and RAW.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#111 » Jul 10 2017 07:53

Unusualsuspect wrote:The question being vehemently discussed is whether the Tx7 Hammerhead Gunship noted in the rule is a unit name (and so would only ever apply to an index Hammerhead) or a keyword that is lacking in the bold/capitalized formatting (and so would apply to Longstrike, since his aura is worded not to exclude himself and he has the TX7 HAMMERHEAD GUNSHIP keyword).


I admit, I want Longstrike to buff himself, but I don't think he does. Both arguments seem solid though, and if Reece said he buffs himself (is there a source on that?) then that's very strong RAI evidence that he does buff himself.

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Gragagrogog
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Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#112 » Jul 10 2017 08:01

RAW is unclear, since "TX7 Hammerhead Gunships" is not formatted as a keyword, it can reference either:
a) Unit name or description, same as in special rules that refer to the unit that has them
b) A keyword, same as in saviour protocol it refers to "Drones"

RAI was 100% clear before errata, after that they could've intended it to either:
a) Simply fix a minor wording mistake that has no effect on the game
b) Make Longstrike buff himself

Neither option can be ruled out completely, given GW's poor record.

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Arka0415
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Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#113 » Jul 10 2017 08:02

Gragagrogog wrote:RAI was 100% clear before errata, after that they could've intended it to either:
a) Simply fix a minor wording mistake that has no effect on the game
b) Make Longstrike buff himself


This is why it bothers me! Some FAQ :(

fraction64
Shas'Saal
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Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#114 » Jul 10 2017 11:21

Seen Reece respond to this question on their latest review of the BAO format.

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shasocastris
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Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#115 » Jul 11 2017 02:58

I'm going to ask that we table this discussion for now, given that it's not going anywhere.

What I recommend is that, within everyone's respective gaming groups, get a general consensus and use that. If one is participating at a tournament, email the TO ahead of time to get an official ruling on the question ahead of time. I understand that this will not necessarily be satisfactory, but I think it's the best way to move forward without having a continuous argument over the Internet. While I agree this is an important question, we've really exhausted what we can do on ATT and have many other things that can be worked through in the mean time.

Cheers!

Mirny
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Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#116 » Jul 11 2017 04:31

fraction64 wrote:Seen Reece respond to this question on their latest review of the BAO format.

Which part did you mean? That about Pesk or about the Deamon Lord?
In both points he talks about abilities with KEYWORDS. No one disagree with this. The question is what is a keyword or when is a rule referenced to a Keyword. In my opinion it's totaly clear that Longstrikes rule don't use a Keyword, he buffs a specific unittype.
There are sooooooo many of these type of rules all over the indices.

Index Imperium 2 page 14, Master of Ordnance, Master of Ballistics wrote:You can re-roll any hit rolls of 1 made for friendly <REGIMENT> Basilisks, Wyverns, Manticores or Deathstrikes when they target enemy units over 36" away in the Shooting phase, if they are within 3" of this model.

Index Xenos 1 page 15, Fuegan, Unflinching Focus wrote:You can re-roll hit rools of 1 for Fuegan's ranged weapons, and for those of friendly Fire Dragons units within 6".

Index Xenos 2 page 17, Kaptin Badrukk, Flashiest Gitz wrote:You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 in the Shooting phase for friendly units of Flash Gitz within 6" of Kaptin Badrukk.

Index Xenos 2 page 87, Old One Eye, Alpha Leader wrote:You can add 1 to hit rolls in the Fight phase for friendly <HIVE FLEET> Carnifex units that are within 6" of this model.


I could list so much more. Nearly every Tyranid HQ buff a specific unit. If the buff target one specific unit, the keywords are not used.

I can't understand why someone could argue TX7 Hammerhead Gunships and TX7 HAMMERHEAD GUNSHIPS are both meant to be the keyword. Did they just for fun write sometimes the keywords bold and CAPS and sometimes normal? And that's not a Tau issue, this effects everything. It mess up all rules if the keywordsystem is interpreted different. But if the rulebook or AoS FAQ don't convince you, we have to wait for a GW response.

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Peregrim
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Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#117 » Jul 11 2017 11:19

Mirny wrote:
fraction64 wrote:Seen Reece respond to this question on their latest review of the BAO format.

Which part did you mean? That about Pesk or about the Deamon Lord?
In both points he talks about abilities with KEYWORDS. No one disagree with this. The question is what is a keyword or when is a rule referenced to a Keyword. In my opinion it's totaly clear that Longstrikes rule don't use a Keyword, he buffs a specific unittype.
There are sooooooo many of these type of rules all over the indices.

Index Imperium 2 page 14, Master of Ordnance, Master of Ballistics wrote:You can re-roll any hit rolls of 1 made for friendly <REGIMENT> Basilisks, Wyverns, Manticores or Deathstrikes when they target enemy units over 36" away in the Shooting phase, if they are within 3" of this model.

Index Xenos 1 page 15, Fuegan, Unflinching Focus wrote:You can re-roll hit rools of 1 for Fuegan's ranged weapons, and for those of friendly Fire Dragons units within 6".

Index Xenos 2 page 17, Kaptin Badrukk, Flashiest Gitz wrote:You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 in the Shooting phase for friendly units of Flash Gitz within 6" of Kaptin Badrukk.

Index Xenos 2 page 87, Old One Eye, Alpha Leader wrote:You can add 1 to hit rolls in the Fight phase for friendly <HIVE FLEET> Carnifex units that are within 6" of this model.


I could list so much more. Nearly every Tyranid HQ buff a specific unit. If the buff target one specific unit, the keywords are not used.

I can't understand why someone could argue TX7 Hammerhead Gunships and TX7 HAMMERHEAD GUNSHIPS are both meant to be the keyword. Did they just for fun write sometimes the keywords bold and CAPS and sometimes normal? And that's not a Tau issue, this effects everything. It mess up all rules if the keywordsystem is interpreted different. But if the rulebook or AoS FAQ don't convince you, we have to wait for a GW response.

The reason why this isn't a compelling argument to anyone who disagrees with you is because the names referred to in each of those special abilities are also keywords on the corresponding units' datasheets, so if you haven't made the assumption that all keywords need to be formatted properly then you could just as easily interpret these examples as evidence that not all keywords need to be bold and capitalised. This relates a broader issue I have with your interpretation: why would a unit's name (which is specific to that unit) also be a keyword on its datasheet if keywords are not used to refer to specific units? If units didn't have their names as a keyword, then I would be convinced by your interpretation of the rules.

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Unusualsuspect
Kroot'Ui
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Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#118 » Jul 11 2017 11:49

Regardless, Shas'o Castris has made an excellent point:

The Disagreement has been laid out, and explained, to the point that anyone who wishes to do so can read all the arguments for or against a particular interpretation.

There is no other information that could be provided at this point from existing material that bears on the issue.

People continue to disagree.




Whether this is an ACTUAL ambiguity or not (RAW I'm starting to lean towards the it-isn't-a-keyword crowd, given AoS examples and a few other WH40k samples), there is an EFFECTIVE ambiguity in how it appears to be played and interpreted, and that means that the internet is NO LONGER a particularly useful authority - it is going to depend 100% on how your fellow players play, and no amount of internet argument at this point (when all arguments have already been laid out) is going to change things (except perhaps get you warned and prevented from contributing to this site).

fraction64
Shas'Saal
Posts: 177

Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#119 » Jul 11 2017 01:08

His answer can be found in the comments section here.
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/07 ... oll-is-in/

I agree that it doesn't appear to be a keyword and actually hearing Reece in his latest video match with Tau he doesn't appear to see the argument. Really we need GW to answer this once and for all.

By the way did anyone find more plural keywords other than the terrain rules and the weird constant plural DRONE keyword? No reason for it to be plural. Just odd.

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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#120 » Jul 11 2017 01:15

I honestly would go with saying it's no keyword just because that's how it's handled in AoS and so far keywords work the same in both systems.

Mirny
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Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#121 » Jul 12 2017 05:11

Peregrim wrote:The reason why this isn't a compelling argument to anyone who disagrees with you is because the names referred to in each of those special abilities are also keywords on the corresponding units' datasheets, so if you haven't made the assumption that all keywords need to be formatted properly then you could just as easily interpret these examples as evidence that not all keywords need to be bold and capitalised. This relates a broader issue I have with your interpretation: why would a unit's name (which is specific to that unit) also be a keyword on its datasheet if keywords are not used to refer to specific units? If units didn't have their names as a keyword, then I would be convinced by your interpretation of the rules.


Because the unit name keyword is not exclusive to his unit. so it can't be used to target a specific unit. Even in the Longstrike example we see a unit name can be keyword on an other unit as well. That's how heros are implemented.

One more try. I have another example:
The Tyranid Hive Tyrant has as everyone his name as keyword. The Swarmlord has besides this own name also the HIVE TYRANT keyword.
If we now look at he Tyrant Guard we see two rules which says: "If a friendly <HIVE FLEET> HIVE TYRANT is killed" and "a friendly <HIVE FLEET> HIVE TYRANT loses a wound"

Why is Hive Tyrant bold and CAPS? In your interpretation it would be enough if it's unformatted. Because in this case not only the unit is meant. Every unit with the keyword is target of these rules.
That's how it work. If it's meant to buff a specific unit, the unit name is used. If it's meant to buff a class of units, the keywords are used.

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Overheal
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Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#122 » Jul 12 2017 01:11

How do homing beacons function this edition?

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Mon'von
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Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#123 » Jul 12 2017 01:17

So just to veer away from the Longstrike discussion/debate I have a question on pathfinders. Going by RAW it would seem that we could effectively take 5 drones with a pathfinder unit i.e 2 tactical, 2 support and the recon drone, is this an accurate assumption or am I reading it slightly wrong? The actual sentence reads "This unit may be accompanied by 2 Tactical Drones and/or an MB3 Recon Drone... and/or 2 Support Drones: 1 MV31 Pulse Accelerator Drone and/or 1 MV33 Grav-inhibitor Drone".
"Wyrd bið ful aræd" Fate remains inexorable

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Overheal
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Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#124 » Jul 12 2017 01:20

That reads as

2 Tactical
AND an MB3
AND a PA drone
AND a GI drone

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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#125 » Jul 12 2017 01:21

Overheal wrote:How do homing beacons function this edition?

A unit of Stealth Suits can place it near them at any time in the movement phase and it stays until it gets used or until the enemy ends their movement within 6" or so.
You can use it to let deploy reserves within 6" of the homing beacon.
Means it lets you ignore the "deploy 9" or more away from enemy units".

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Mon'von
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Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#126 » Jul 12 2017 01:31

Overheal wrote:How do homing beacons function this edition?


They are Dropped by the Stealth Suits within 1" of the unit during your movement phase. It allows Manta strike units to be placed within 6" inches of the homing beacon allowing you to ignore the 9" rule when bringing in reserves. It is a one time use and so is only going to allow you one unit drop per beacon. Also be aware that although there is no rule on where you can place it, if an enemy unit ends a move within 9" of the beacon then it must be removed.
"Wyrd bið ful aræd" Fate remains inexorable

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