New 8th FAQ

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 166

Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#145 » Jul 13 2017 12:24

Glarblar wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:
It definitely modifies each weapon profile to be RF1 to RF2 and Assault 2 to 3 so gun drones get 6 attacks when within 9 inches.


Curious, what is your rational for saying 'definitely', I'd like to know how to explain it to my opponent


The wording in the main rulebook has that ranged weapons shoot and they make a number of attacks with it. If something makes an additional shot it gets +1 added to the shooting profile. In the case of Assault 2 weapons, they become assault 3. In the case of RF 1 weapons, they go to RF 2.

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Glarblar
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Posts: 136

Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#146 » Jul 13 2017 12:30

Yojimbob wrote:
Glarblar wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:
It definitely modifies each weapon profile to be RF1 to RF2 and Assault 2 to 3 so gun drones get 6 attacks when within 9 inches.


Curious, what is your rational for saying 'definitely', I'd like to know how to explain it to my opponent


The wording in the main rulebook has that ranged weapons shoot and they make a number of attacks with it. If something makes an additional shot it gets +1 added to the shooting profile. In the case of Assault 2 weapons, they become assault 3. In the case of RF 1 weapons, they go to RF 2.


I suppose that is the simplest solution... I see that I am just trying to complicate it. The way I was thinking of it is:

why do you believe it is 2*(X+1) [RF*(Attacks +shot)] and not 2*(X)+1 [RF*(Attacks)+shot]

But I can see now 2*(X+1) is the simpler assumption and so I will use that.

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Overheal
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Posts: 156

Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#147 » Jul 13 2017 12:39

Number of Attacks
Each time a model shoots a ranged
weapon, it will make a number of attacks.
You roll one dice for each attack being
made. The number of attacks a model
can make with a weapon, and therefore
the number of dice you can roll, is found
on the weapon’s profile, along with the
weapon’s type. A weapon’s type can
impact the number of attacks it can make
(see overleaf).

Weapon Types
There are five types of ranged weapon:
Assault, Heavy, Rapid Fire, Grenade and
Pistol. A model shooting one of these
weapons can make a number of attacks
equal to the number written on its profile
after its type. For example, a model firing
an ‘Assault 1’ weapon can make 1 attack
with that weapon; a model firing a ‘Heavy
3’ weapon can make 3 attacks, etc.
If a weapon has more than one attack, it
must make all of its attacks against the
same target unit.

Rapid Fire
Rapid Fire weapons are versatile
weapons capable of aimed single shots
at long range or controlled bursts of fire
at close quarters.
A model firing a Rapid Fire weapon
doubles the number of attacks it makes
if its target is within half the weapon’s
maximum range.



Volleyfire: [...] units within 6" [...] may fire an extra shot with pulse pistols, pulse rifles, and pulse carbines when shooting at a target within half the weapons range"


I would take this to mean no, it can not split-fire (RAW does not say "may fire twice this phase" etc) but would increase the number of shots on the weapon profile, to Rapid Fire 2, Assault 3, and Pistol 2 respectively.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2368

Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#148 » Jul 13 2017 12:51

Yojimbob wrote:
Glarblar wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:
It definitely modifies each weapon profile to be RF1 to RF2 and Assault 2 to 3 so gun drones get 6 attacks when within 9 inches.


Curious, what is your rational for saying 'definitely', I'd like to know how to explain it to my opponent


The wording in the main rulebook has that ranged weapons shoot and they make a number of attacks with it. If something makes an additional shot it gets +1 added to the shooting profile. In the case of Assault 2 weapons, they become assault 3. In the case of RF 1 weapons, they go to RF 2.

Actually with the reasoning that 1 shooting = multiple attacks (as in the profile), wouldn't an additional shot not mean to do the amount of attacks the weapon has once more? So Assault2 weapon with an additional shot would be 2xAssault2?

I mean the problem is that the core rules don't talk about "shots" but only about "shooting a weapon" and "making attacks". So it's most likely an oversight/copy&paste problem in the rules wording. RAI imo is that Fireblade gives an additional "attack" at half range per weapon.

Also nowhere it says that that the Fireblade modifies the weapons profile.
Rapidfire1 doesn't become Rapidfire2. That would result in 2 additional attacks at half range. Rapidfire1 stays Rapidfire1 and you simply do one more attack per weapon at half range. Just as it's written (except that they used the term "shot" instead of "attack" because of herp derp).
Assault2 also doesn't become Assault3 at half range, even though that wouldn't make any difference.


I for one will play it as I always did. Firewarrior with a Pulse Rifles or Pulse Carbines will have 3 shots at half range, not 4.
Gun Drones because the way it's worded benefit twice from it so they get 6 shots at half range.
Just exchange the word "shot" with "attack" and the rule becomes clear as day. There simply is no term as "shot" in the rules.

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Glarblar
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Posts: 136

Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#149 » Jul 13 2017 01:02

Does anyone have the rules for IG's "First rank Fire, Second Rank Fire"? I feel like this is a similar rule.

I can see viable arguments for all 3 scenarios, I think I'm going to start playing that the model shoots twice at half range, ie Gundrones get 8 shots, and PR get 4

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Unusualsuspect
Kroot'Ui
Posts: 588

Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#150 » Jul 13 2017 01:03

Panzer wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:
Glarblar wrote:
Curious, what is your rational for saying 'definitely', I'd like to know how to explain it to my opponent


The wording in the main rulebook has that ranged weapons shoot and they make a number of attacks with it. If something makes an additional shot it gets +1 added to the shooting profile. In the case of Assault 2 weapons, they become assault 3. In the case of RF 1 weapons, they go to RF 2.

Actually with the reasoning that 1 shooting = multiple attacks (as in the profile), wouldn't an additional shot not mean to do the amount of attacks the weapon has once more? So Assault2 weapon with an additional shot would be 2xAssault2?


Yep, since that would preserve the ability to direct shots at different targets (but not attacks) - under the "shooting a weapon" understanding of the term "shot", you would get one shot with a weapon (1 or 2 for Pulse Rifles, 2 for Pulse Carbines), and if you qualified for the second shot, you would get a second shot with a weapon (2 for Pulse Rifles, since the condition requires half-range anyway, and 2 for Pulse Carbines).

I mean the problem is that the core rules don't talk about "shots" but only about "shooting a weapon" and "making attacks". So it's most likely an oversight/copy&paste problem in the rules wording. RAI imo is that Fireblade gives an additional "attack" at half range per weapon.


I agree with you mostly, though they do use the term "shot" several times - when talking about Rapid Fire weapons, when talking about how targetting works (you can split shots, but can't split attacks), and in an example with Death Guard (where shot is used as if it was attack).

I totally agree with the RAI.

Also nowhere it says that that the Fireblade modifies the weapons profile.
Rapidfire1 doesn't become Rapidfire2. That would result in 2 additional attacks at half range. Rapidfire1 stays Rapidfire1 and you simply do one more attack per weapon at half range. Just as it's written (except that they used the term "shot" instead of "attack" because of herp derp).
Assault2 also doesn't become Assault3 at half range, even though that wouldn't make any difference.


I for one will play it as I always did. Firewarrior with a Pulse Rifles or Pulse Carbines will have 3 shots at half range, not 4.
Gun Drones because the way it's worded benefit twice from it so they get 6 shots at half range.
Just exchange the word "shot" with "attack" and the rule becomes clear as day. There simply is no term as "shot" in the rules.


Mostly agreed, except (again) the term "shot" is used in the rules.

It is used inconsistently, so its usefulness as a term is crap, but it is a term used in GW rules nonetheless.

That's exactly why this needs a FAQ - the RAI seems clear, but the RAW uses undefined terms that sow confusion (the exact opposite of what you want in rules).

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2368

Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#151 » Jul 13 2017 01:15

Unusualsuspect wrote:
I mean the problem is that the core rules don't talk about "shots" but only about "shooting a weapon" and "making attacks". So it's most likely an oversight/copy&paste problem in the rules wording. RAI imo is that Fireblade gives an additional "attack" at half range per weapon.


I agree with you mostly, though they do use the term "shot" several times - when talking about Rapid Fire weapons, when talking about how targetting works (you can split shots, but can't split attacks), and in an example with Death Guard (where shot is used as if it was attack).

I hope you don't mean the bold text? That's clearly just fluff-text. The actual rule is the text below that and there they don't use "shot" at all.
When they talk about how targeting works they also don't use the term "shot" anywhere as far as I can see. However they explicitly say that when shooting a ranged weapon you do a number of attacks. Shooting is not the same as "shot" though.
Not sure which part about Death Guard you are talking about, however since they use shot in place of attack it just supports my point that it's meant to be attack in the first place.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2368

Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#152 » Jul 13 2017 01:18

Glarblar wrote:Does anyone have the rules for IG's "First rank Fire, Second Rank Fire"? I feel like this is a similar rule.

I can see viable arguments for all 3 scenarios, I think I'm going to start playing that the model shoots twice at half range, ie Gundrones get 8 shots, and PR get 4

First rank fire, Second rank fire explicitly says that all lasguns and all hot-shot lasguns in the ordered unit change their type to Raid Fire 2 until the end of the phase.

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Overheal
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Posts: 156

Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#153 » Jul 13 2017 01:30

Yeah but that could also be for brevity: rather than saying "pulse rifles become rapid fire 2, pulse carbines become assault 3, and pistols become pistol 2, when firing at half range"

/shrug

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2368

Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#154 » Jul 13 2017 01:32

Overheal wrote:Yeah but that could also be for brevity: rather than saying "pulse rifles become rapid fire 2, pulse carbines become assault 3, and pistols become pistol 2, when firing at half range"

/shrug

Then they could simply have said "increase their weapon profile by 1".
I'll stick with the interpretation that shots is equivalent to attacks and they just derped there and that the profile only gets changed when the rule explicitly says so.

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Glarblar
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Posts: 136

Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#155 » Jul 13 2017 01:39

IMHO its easier to explain as well:
What's an extra shot with a pulse carbine? an additional assault 2
What's an extra shot with a pulse rifle? an additional Rapid Fire 1

Then because the drone has 2 PC, and the way it's worded, it gets an extra shot with both.

see Occam's Razor

Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 166

Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#156 » Jul 13 2017 01:46

Panzer wrote:Actually with the reasoning that 1 shooting = multiple attacks (as in the profile), wouldn't an additional shot not mean to do the amount of attacks the weapon has once more? So Assault2 weapon with an additional shot would be 2xAssault2?


It could imply that. Shots are referred to in the section 3 about choosing targets but only as "shooting" in some of the other sections never using the term shot again but they do specify attacks per each time it is shooting so it could very well be that. I believe though that it means essentially to add another shot to the weapon profile. If it was "gives an additional attack" then I would agree that Fireblade only gives 3 attacks per shot made with the pulse rifle since it would be RF 1 giving 2 attacks with his aura giving an additional attack but since it says "shots" then it should make the gun RF 2.

RAI it MIGHT be what you state but it could be our version of FRFSRF in which case it should be RF2 on our pulse rifles. Not really 100% sure which they mean but RAW I'm certain it's fairly clear we get 4 attacks per rifle and 6 attacks per gun drone at half range.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2368

Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#157 » Jul 13 2017 01:47

Yeah no, that's completely unintuitive and as said it works nowhere else like that so far.

Shot = Attack is the much more likely interpretation.

Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 166

Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#158 » Jul 13 2017 01:52

Panzer wrote:Yeah no, that's completely unintuitive and as said it works nowhere else like that so far.

Shot = Attack is the much more likely interpretation.


Still needs to be FAQ'ed and I LOVE the fact that there somehow were ZERO questions in our section of the FAQ. :roll:

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Glarblar
Shas'Saal
Posts: 136

Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#159 » Jul 13 2017 01:59

Yojimbob wrote:
Still needs to be FAQ'ed and I LOVE the fact that there somehow were ZERO questions in our section of the FAQ. :roll:


I know, totally had me feeling

Image

Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 166

Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#160 » Jul 13 2017 02:01

Panzer wrote:Yeah no, that's completely unintuitive and as said it works nowhere else like that so far.

Shot = Attack is the much more likely interpretation.


Shot = additional attack on the weapon profile is just as likely and puts it in line with another factions ability, so in fact somewhere else.

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Unusualsuspect
Kroot'Ui
Posts: 588

Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#161 » Jul 13 2017 02:05

Panzer wrote:
Unusualsuspect wrote:
I mean the problem is that the core rules don't talk about "shots" but only about "shooting a weapon" and "making attacks". So it's most likely an oversight/copy&paste problem in the rules wording. RAI imo is that Fireblade gives an additional "attack" at half range per weapon.


I agree with you mostly, though they do use the term "shot" several times - when talking about Rapid Fire weapons, when talking about how targetting works (you can split shots, but can't split attacks), and in an example with Death Guard (where shot is used as if it was attack).

I hope you don't mean the bold text? That's clearly just fluff-text. The actual rule is the text below that and there they don't use "shot" at all.
When they talk about how targeting works they also don't use the term "shot" anywhere as far as I can see. However they explicitly say that when shooting a ranged weapon you do a number of attacks. Shooting is not the same as "shot" though.
Not sure which part about Death Guard you are talking about, however since they use shot in place of attack it just supports my point that it's meant to be attack in the first place.


I don't have access to my books at the moment, and I'm a bit distracted by Bar Exam studying to go delving into the web to find an electronic copy of 8e, but Dakka has a thread in which all three references are noted. I can probably answer this in about a week (or maybe tonight I'll look on Dakka again), but I'm 99% sure that they mention the term "shot" when discussing targeting and splitting fire.

The Death Guard example is a small text box detailing the process of shooting, typical of GW's rules explanations by including a reference to actual ingame models (in this case, Death Guard and bolters) and is, in fact, supporting your point - I included it because that's part of the overarching language usage that is ambiguous/contradictory. But that doesn't really change my argument that the rule language used is contradictory/ambiguous.

That makes it worth FAQing, even when most agree that the RAI is clear enough.

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Glarblar
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Posts: 136

Re: New 8th FAQ

Post#162 » Jul 13 2017 02:15

Core rules page 10:
The Death Guard player selects the unit of plague marines to shoot with. the plague marines will shoot with their boltguns, while the plague champion will throw a krak grenade.

The targets are 6" away, which is within range of the plauge marines' boltguns. These are Rapid Fire 1 weapons, and so each fires twice at half range or less. The death guard player therefore rolls 8 dice to see if the shots hit. The plauge marines ballistic skill is 3+ so 6 shots hit and the others miss.

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