Upcoming T'au Codex

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relasine
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#361 » Sep 14 2017 11:16

deathboon wrote:Better support options for commanders than "just take quadfusion"

Cheaper crisis suits

Out of curiosity, I calculated the performance based on the following changes:

1. Increase the base cost of Commanders by 20 points
2. Remove the fourth weapon hardpoint from Commanders
3. Decrease base cost of Crisis Suits by 10 points.

With both equipped with Fusion Blasters attacking T8 targets, Commanders normally pay 20.57 points per-wound caused while a 3-man Crisis Team armed with 8 Fusion Blasters (assuming the 9th hardpoint is used for a Drone Controller), pays 31.5 points per wound caused.

With the three changes I listed, Commanders pay 27.6 points per-wound caused while Crisis Suits pay 28.3 points per-wound caused.

Commanders would still be more efficient performers with those changes.

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Panzer
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#362 » Sep 14 2017 11:31

deathboon wrote: enemy +1vp per etherial slain

Please no. Not again. It was dumb in 7th edition and it would be just as dumb now. Screw giving the enemy extra victory points for being able to kill a T3 character. If it's about how important that specific character is, then everyone should get extra VP when killing Eldar since there are only few left and every actual death is a heavy blow to their remaining society.

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Panzer
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#363 » Sep 14 2017 11:33

relasine wrote:
deathboon wrote:Better support options for commanders than "just take quadfusion"

Cheaper crisis suits

Out of curiosity, I calculated the performance based on the following changes:

1. Increase the base cost of Commanders by 20 points
2. Remove the fourth weapon hardpoint from Commanders
3. Decrease base cost of Crisis Suits by 10 points.

With both equipped with Fusion Blasters attacking T8 targets, Commanders normally pay 20.57 points per-wound caused while a 3-man Crisis Team armed with 8 Fusion Blasters (assuming the 9th hardpoint is used for a Drone Controller), pays 31.5 points per wound caused.

With the three changes I listed, Commanders pay 27.6 points per-wound caused while Crisis Suits pay 28.3 points per-wound caused.

Commanders would still be more efficient performers with those changes.

Of course. BS2+ is WAY better than BS4+. I don't think changing the cost of them is going to do anything, the solution would be for GW to find a way to prevent spamming HQ. And that's for every army, not just for T'au.

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relasine
Shas'La
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#364 » Sep 14 2017 11:44

Panzer wrote:Of course. BS2+ is WAY better than BS4+. I don't think changing the cost of them is going to do anything, the solution would be for GW to find a way to prevent spamming HQ. And that's for every army, not just for T'au.

There is hidden value that's not really discussed in the scenario I laid out, specifically that the reduced cost of Crisis Suits makes them cheaper platforms for Manta-Striking Gun Drone units.

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Panzer
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#365 » Sep 14 2017 11:48

Assuming Gun Drones won't get an increase in points due them being better at dishing out S5 dakka than Firewarrior while having a ton more utility as well (FLY, Saviour Protocols, M8, T4, two weapons so they benefit twice from Fireblade).

But Drones is a good argument. Crisis can bring 2 per Suit while the Commander can only bring 2 period. though he's a character so if you play smart he won't need as much protection anyway. Then again, a unit of Crisis has more wounds as well.

Your changes would make them pretty close to eachother though I really wouldn't take the Commanders 4th hardpoint.

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relasine
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#366 » Sep 14 2017 11:56

Panzer wrote:Your changes would make them pretty close to eachother though I really wouldn't take the Commanders 4th hardpoint.

I'm not convinced that taking the Commander's 4th hardpoint should be part of any balance approach; it was just a factor I was humoring while looking at a hypothetical rebalancing scenario.

Also, I'm with you on Gun Drones. They're one of the strongest offensive performers in the game on a point-for-point basis. They need a balance pass.

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deathboon
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#367 » Sep 15 2017 12:08

What we really need is support/signature systems that are worth taking in that 4th (and maybe even in the third) hardpoint over the value of massed bs 2+ fusion shooting.

Do that and his cost is probably fine. A commander should be designed to make your crisis suits better, not simply to be a better crisis suit.

Also I would like to see the commanders buff's be effective only for units with the battle suit keyword (and Storm Surge).

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relasine
Shas'La
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#368 » Sep 15 2017 12:15

deathboon wrote:What we really need is support/signature systems that are worth taking in that 4th (and maybe even in the third) hardpoint over the value of massed bs 2+ fusion shooting.

Do that and his cost is probably fine. A commander should be designed to make your crisis suits better, not simply to be a better crisis suit.

Also I would like to see the commanders buff's be effective only for units with the battle suit keyword (and Storm Surge).

This pretty much encapsulates my feeling on the issue.

I don't mind Commanders as a weapons platform, but not at the cost of invalidating most other weapons platforms.

That said, I'm concerned about the development team's ability to make this type of character for T'au, case-in-point being how Shadowsun was designed. She is a mess of contradictory defensive bonuses and mixed roles for a crazy price.

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Czar Ziggy
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#369 » Sep 26 2017 11:29

So today's community post about the guard had an interesting rule. Lean Russ tanks will have "grinding advance" which will allow them to move under half their movement value and gain the ability to fire the main cannon twice at the same target and ignore the movement penalty for firing heavy weapons. I can see something like this coming to our hammerheads.

Czar Ziggy

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Glarblar
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#370 » Sep 26 2017 11:36

The second half, probably not the 'double tap'

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Czar Ziggy
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#371 » Sep 26 2017 11:41

I do wonder about the double tap though. It would put our possible damage output on par with the predator.

Czar Ziggy

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Panzer
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#372 » Sep 26 2017 11:48

Hm...they could potentially give everyone with tanks such a rule if they really wanted to. I don't think it's any more or less likely for us to get something like that.

However their Regiment Doctrine is quite interesting. +1 to-hit on Overwatch and Leadership when standing close together. That's something I could definitely see one of our Septs getting.
Their Stratagem for shooting Overwatch at 5 or 6 on vehicles is just icing on the cake letting Leman Russ Punisher hit Overwatch on 4+ for 1CP if it's within 3" of an Infantry unit lol

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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#373 » Sep 26 2017 12:17

As cool as that is is nobody worried about the order to let their rapid fire weapons target characters?

Yeah these 2 vet squads with 8 plasma guns between them will jump out of this chimera and target your fireblade / ethereal / SM captain / farseer no worries.

Oh and if they survive long enough to be charged next turn they hit on 5's with those plasma guns.

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Panzer
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#374 » Sep 26 2017 12:32

Nah, as T'au player I'm the last one who gets scared from that order. Nobody has as many cheap bodyguards as we have and our Commander also aren't the kind of HQ that sticks around for long to buff surrounding units.

Maybe a Fireblade would've to worry, but really...a Fireblade is cheap and has usually a ton of Gun Drones nearby. ^^

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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#375 » Sep 26 2017 12:42

Panzer wrote:Nah, as T'au player I'm the last one who gets scared from that order. Nobody has as many cheap bodyguards as we have and our Commander also aren't the kind of HQ that sticks around for long to buff surrounding units.

Maybe a Fireblade would've to worry, but really...a Fireblade is cheap and has usually a ton of Gun Drones nearby. ^^


I think it's going to catch people off guard and I'd your drones aren't close to your fireblade/ ethereal because you weren't expecting them to get shot it's gunna be a kick in the teeth.

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QimRas
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#376 » Sep 26 2017 12:52

Nymphomanius wrote:
Panzer wrote:Nah, as T'au player I'm the last one who gets scared from that order. Nobody has as many cheap bodyguards as we have and our Commander also aren't the kind of HQ that sticks around for long to buff surrounding units.

Maybe a Fireblade would've to worry, but really...a Fireblade is cheap and has usually a ton of Gun Drones nearby. ^^


I think it's going to catch people off guard and I'd your drones aren't close to your fireblade/ ethereal because you weren't expecting them to get shot it's gunna be a kick in the teeth.


Use shield drones to protect characters. And if they are that far away, sounds like you are doing it wrong. Hell, any given shield drone group should be in range of as many units as possible so that they can all share the shield pool.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#377 » Sep 26 2017 01:48

QimRas wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
Panzer wrote:Nah, as T'au player I'm the last one who gets scared from that order. Nobody has as many cheap bodyguards as we have and our Commander also aren't the kind of HQ that sticks around for long to buff surrounding units.

Maybe a Fireblade would've to worry, but really...a Fireblade is cheap and has usually a ton of Gun Drones nearby. ^^


I think it's going to catch people off guard and I'd your drones aren't close to your fireblade/ ethereal because you weren't expecting them to get shot it's gunna be a kick in the teeth.


Use shield drones to protect characters. And if they are that far away, sounds like you are doing it wrong. Hell, any given shield drone group should be in range of as many units as possible so that they can all share the shield pool.


8 plasma guns if they are close range is 16 shots 11 hits 9 wounds, if they overcharge you would need 7 drones to tank all the wounds as would get no save.

Or even your normal Commander usually has 2 drones if 100 conscripts shoot at long range it'll still be 33 hits 11 wounds usually 3-4 failed saves strips your drones and does a wound or 2.

The amount of rapid fire weapons guard can muster will make them top character snipers even with drones

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QimRas
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#378 » Sep 26 2017 02:16

Nymphomanius wrote:
8 plasma guns if they are close range is 16 shots 11 hits 9 wounds, if they overcharge you would need 7 drones to tank all the wounds as would get no save.

Or even your normal Commander usually has 2 drones if 100 conscripts shoot at long range it'll still be 33 hits 11 wounds usually 3-4 failed saves strips your drones and does a wound or 2.

The amount of rapid fire weapons guard can muster will make them top character snipers even with drones


Lets not blow this out of proportion. First of all, Veterans are only capable of carrying up to 3 Plasma Guns. Special Weapons teams are also only capable of 3 special weapons. Command Squads are capable of taking 4, but are limited to 1 per Officer.

So the worst case scenario is the Command Squad. They are BS 3+ so hit 66% of the time with 2 shots each. So 5.28 rounding up to 6 because we are talking worst case. Cadre Fireblades are T3, so wounding on 2s so 83% comes out to 5 wounds. Bounce them all to drones, drones get a 5+ Shield Gen save, so that means 33% get bounced. So after that 3.3 are not saved, so 4. 4 popped Shield Drones. I am not worried about 4 popped drones, especially when they could have done the same thing with First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire into my Fire Warriors. Either way, they are only killing drones, and not reducing my killing capacity in the slightest.

Is it a nice tactical order. Yes. Is it something I wish we had. Yes! Do I think it will see use. Yes. But remember it shares a limited pool of available Orders per turn with some other very impressive Orders. Its a nice tool to put in their toolbox, and it will win or lose some games, but it does not sound like it is excessive or game breaking.

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