Upcoming T'au Codex

Use this area for all discussions of the "gaming" aspect of 40K/Tau.
Ricordis
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#901 » Dec 06 2017 08:56

Oh, it doesn't sound like "Git gud". But you say he has to overcome any situation with more firepower. And that's all we can do currently:
Overwhelm with more firepower or you can wave your units a goodbye.
edit: And add drones to everything.

I stopped playing because this is not how I want to play. Tau were agile and long ranged with a nice punch and nice synergies across the codex. T'au aren't.

My friend showed me the Dark Angels spotlight and told me they are the better Tau now. Rerolling 1s when standing still, strong battleshock morale, buffing plasma, pinpointing a high value target, Talonmaster lets ignore cover saves and reroll 1s...
If money would not be a problem I'd switch to them.

DancinHobo
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#902 » Dec 06 2017 09:13

Sure we have tools to protect from combat and stuff. But Overwatch isn’t that great. I don’t count on many kills from it. And screening units are fine. But I still prefer distance over a screening unit of drones. Make them come to me. And they can always just shoot the screen first. A 3 man Crisis team drops with 6 drones. Not hard to put 6 wounds on them. Then hit the Crisis team. I’ll be fine if we don’t get JSJ across board, but I atleast want it as a gem. Which will probably happen at the least.

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Arka0415
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#903 » Dec 06 2017 09:33

With this discussion of overwatch, something occurred to me. I tend to run my Flamer XV8s with their drones in front, to soak charges, but... it's easy for a clever opponent to charge your Gun Drones from ~7" away, meaning the XV8s are out of range due to the size of the Gun Drone bases. Could it be possibly worth it to put your Flamer XV8s in front of their Gun Drones, so it's easier for them to be in overwatch range, and so the Drones can still fire over the XV8s' heads?

Or is this too risky?

DancinHobo
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#904 » Dec 06 2017 09:39

Arka0415 wrote:With this discussion of overwatch, something occurred to me. I tend to run my Flamer XV8s with their drones in front, to soak charges, but... it's easy for a clever opponent to charge your Gun Drones from ~7" away, meaning the XV8s are out of range due to the size of the Gun Drone bases. Could it be possibly worth it to put your Flamer XV8s in front of their Gun Drones, so it's easier for them to be in overwatch range, and so the Drones can still fire over the XV8s' heads?

Or is this too risky?

As long as the drones are within savior Protocols range. Should be fine. And you can still fall back since they can fly over the drones. I’ve yet to run a Flamer team, but I plan to, and that’s how I would drop mine.

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QimRas
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#905 » Dec 06 2017 09:49

Arka0415 wrote:With this discussion of overwatch, something occurred to me. I tend to run my Flamer XV8s with their drones in front, to soak charges, but... it's easy for a clever opponent to charge your Gun Drones from ~7" away, meaning the XV8s are out of range due to the size of the Gun Drone bases. Could it be possibly worth it to put your Flamer XV8s in front of their Gun Drones, so it's easier for them to be in overwatch range, and so the Drones can still fire over the XV8s' heads?

Or is this too risky?


Um... depends on what your fighting, I guess? If it were me, I would pair flamer crisis with Shields, and literally leave the shields like 1.1" from the enemy, and shelter the suits behind them. Flamers are so close range you almost want them right in the enemys grill as opposed to at max range. And don't worry about them getting swept up in consolidate, since the enemy cant hurt you with consolidation anyways.

Someone would need to run the math, but over multiple turns I feel like it would take longer for an enemy to remove both shields and suits, giving your suits more time to do damage in two phase.

The obvious counter to this would be them charging you with multiple units.

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GND
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#906 » Dec 07 2017 04:12

While I enjoyed JSJ as any Tau player and even remember the good old days when it was a flat 6" move instead of a dice roll that could screw your planing over, it was an often criticized and not-fun-play-against mechanic. It made us feel clever and tricky! (but really it's a basic tactic anyone can do).

Denying a charge to an assault unit means that units does nothing. Hiding out of LOS from a shooting unit means that unit does nothing (or ends up shooting lascannons at Kroot or something, i.e. effectively nothing). 40k is a game and doing nothing is not fun. Anyone remember playing against Necrons in 7th? Any of you ever "celebrated" killing two whole modes per turn? That's what playing against a full JSJ Tau army felt like.

Mind you, this wasn't an OP tactic that was winning tournaments. Good players would still beat you. It just wan't very engaging. Usually boiling to a game of cat and mouse or ignore and get points. Bad players would get frustrated and complain online how "TAU OP" without ever facing the true horror of a Ripdite Wing.

Damage mitigation is the name of the game for us in 8th and we got some pretty good buffs in durability for that. I know it's different way to play than previous editions and some people might not be OK with that. But I also fully understand why GW decided to go this way. From personal experience I know my opponents are happier to kill something even if it's just Drones.

TLDR: We play differently now, adapt or find a different army, I don't see JSJ returning in the codex outside of a stratagem.

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ErSe0831
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#907 » Dec 07 2017 05:46

GND wrote:While I enjoyed JSJ as any Tau player and even remember the good old days when it was a flat 6" move instead of a dice roll that could screw your planing over, it was an often criticized and not-fun-play-against mechanic. It made us feel clever and tricky! (but really it's a basic tactic anyone can do).

Denying a charge to an assault unit means that units does nothing. Hiding out of LOS from a shooting unit means that unit does nothing (or ends up shooting lascannons at Kroot or something, i.e. effectively nothing). 40k is a game and doing nothing is not fun. Anyone remember playing against Necrons in 7th? Any of you ever "celebrated" killing two whole modes per turn? That's what playing against a full JSJ Tau army felt like.

Mind you, this wasn't an OP tactic that was winning tournaments. Good players would still beat you. It just wan't very engaging. Usually boiling to a game of cat and mouse or ignore and get points. Bad players would get frustrated and complain online how "TAU OP" without ever facing the true horror of a Ripdite Wing.

Damage mitigation is the name of the game for us in 8th and we got some pretty good buffs in durability for that. I know it's different way to play than previous editions and some people might not be OK with that. But I also fully understand why GW decided to go this way. From personal experience I know my opponents are happier to kill something even if it's just Drones.

TLDR: We play differently now, adapt or find a different army, I don't see JSJ returning in the codex outside of a stratagem.


This is where I'm coming from: I really didn't play any of the earlier edition of 40k. Bought last years Christmas bundle and read up on the rules but only really managed to play some Kill Team before 8th launched.

As someone who played before, would you say that assault-units, all things considered (changed transport rules, movement changes, stratagems etc.) have it easier to reach CC now?

At least that's my impression (I've had a go against Jain Zar with her howling banshee lackeys jumping out of a wave serpent). While we on our end lost maneuverability (but won some durability).

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Arka0415
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#908 » Dec 07 2017 06:14

ErSe0831 wrote:As someone who played before, would you say that assault-units, all things considered (changed transport rules, movement changes, stratagems etc.) have it easier to reach CC now?


I'd say so, yeah. Charges are more powerful, charge ranges are longer, many units can hit on 2+ in CC, and transport vehicles are more durable. CC seems scarier now. I'd be curious to hear other people's opinions though.

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QimRas
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#909 » Dec 07 2017 06:46

ErSe0831 wrote:
As someone who played before, would you say that assault-units, all things considered (changed transport rules, movement changes, stratagems etc.) have it easier to reach CC now?


Coming from 4th or 5th edition (whichever one Apocalypse first came out in) assault is a cakewalk now. I remember playing as AM back then and losing whole sides of the board to a single unshootable assault unit, and having to slam tanks into them then drop ordinance onto my own tank to stop the massacre.

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Arka0415
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#910 » Dec 07 2017 06:52

QimRas wrote:
ErSe0831 wrote:
As someone who played before, would you say that assault-units, all things considered (changed transport rules, movement changes, stratagems etc.) have it easier to reach CC now?


Coming from 4th or 5th edition (whichever one Apocalypse first came out in) assault is a cakewalk now. I remember playing as AM back then and losing whole sides of the board to a single unshootable assault unit, and having to slam tanks into them then drop ordinance onto my own tank to stop the massacre.

Haha, maybe we remember things differently. I think it's no question that assault units are stronger when it comes to chopping things up. However, you're right- I didn't stop to think about units being "locked in combat" which is no longer a thing now. The lack of sweeping advances, and the ability to fall back out of combat, means that while assault units are dealing more damage in combat now, they're also much easier to get rid of via shooting. Good to remember, thanks.

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QimRas
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#911 » Dec 07 2017 07:04

Arka0415 wrote:
QimRas wrote:
ErSe0831 wrote:
As someone who played before, would you say that assault-units, all things considered (changed transport rules, movement changes, stratagems etc.) have it easier to reach CC now?


Coming from 4th or 5th edition (whichever one Apocalypse first came out in) assault is a cakewalk now. I remember playing as AM back then and losing whole sides of the board to a single unshootable assault unit, and having to slam tanks into them then drop ordinance onto my own tank to stop the massacre.

Haha, maybe we remember things differently. I think it's no question that assault units are stronger when it comes to chopping things up. However, you're right- I didn't stop to think about units being "locked in combat" which is no longer a thing now. The lack of sweeping advances, and the ability to fall back out of combat, means that while assault units are dealing more damage in combat now, they're also much easier to get rid of via shooting. Good to remember, thanks.


probably repressed it. My friend who played Tau then was like that too. I have some happy memories about that, but I think all of his were pain. Like the time my Ork playing friend actually checked to see if my dice were loaded after the 3rd successive turn where a whole battery of Basilisks managed to land shots on the orks around the Leman Russ and not on the Russ itself, killing his third squad of Boys that game. Or the time against Tyranids where I used On My Location to drop rocks around one of my Infantry squads, and managed to only hit the Tyranids, and not one rock hit my Infantry. Or the time that an Infantry Sergeant lasted 3 whole rounds of Apocalypse on his own against a whole squad of Blood Angels Assault Marines. Then got his face wrecked 10 times over when almost all the enemies hits connected in one round. Good times, good times.

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Jefffar
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#912 » Dec 07 2017 07:07

It's also important to remember that JSJ preceded Overwatch as a rule. While Overwatch itself isn't especially spectacular, the Tau are better than most armies at it.

Also, the units that used to be able to JSJ now disengage from combat without penalty thanks to Fly. The units that didn't have JSJ can still disengage, but at a penalty.

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GND
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#913 » Dec 07 2017 08:33

Getting into combat now is much easier than in 7th/6th. It's not only increased mobility options for various units, re-rolling a single dice of the charge roll (which required a USR before, now a stratagem for everyone), but also being able to remove casualties as you choose. That's one of the reasons I started to appreciate the increased durability, I don't think JSJ would be enough to take us out of charge range against a lot of assault units.

On the other hand, the removal of sweeping advances is the greatest nerf for CC armies against us Tau. With our mediocre leadership and poor initiative we have lost entire units after taking just 2-3 casualties (and Drones where parts of units back than). We can get charged now, suffer some damage and leave to fight another turn.

But 7th edition was weird for CC units. You either were a super strong and durable deathstar with 15+ USR piled into a single unit that murdered absolutely everything it touched. Or you really didn't have to bother with CC, 'cus most of the time you aren't getting into to combat in the first place.

Jefffar wrote:It's also important to remember that JSJ preceded Overwatch as a rule. While Overwatch itself isn't especially spectacular, the Tau are better than most armies at it.

This is a good point. Not only enemy units didn't get to do anything because of a long charge after we jumped, they sometimes lost a model or two. Which increased their required charge range, because you had to remove casualties from the front. So much fun :D

PeeJ
Shas'La
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#914 » Dec 07 2017 09:52

GND wrote:Denying a charge to an assault unit means that units does nothing. Hiding out of LOS from a shooting unit means that unit does nothing (or ends up shooting lascannons at Kroot or something, i.e. effectively nothing). 40k is a game and doing nothing is not fun. Anyone remember playing against Necrons in 7th? Any of you ever "celebrated" killing two whole modes per turn? That's what playing against a full JSJ Tau army felt like.


Hopefully that is the mindset that GW have and our codex release may give us something to do in the Psychic and Fight phases of the game rather than just effectively being bystanders as our models die with little to no comeback.

I do agree that people wanting JSJ back are just lamenting the loss of a comfort blanket and that it was frustrating for opponents. At the same time I can kind of see their point of view that it was a big part of the army, because it was.

Either way, I suspect that people will stop complaining about it once the codex is out (even without it returning) as long as we get a re-balance to bring us a little more in line with other armies without having to cheese it up with commander/fireblade & drone spam. For the most part, i don't think I've heard anyone say "yeah, I love just spamming these 2 units over and over" so much as people feel they need to to stand a chance. Obviously, feeling like you are restricted to a small smattering of choices for an army-list is no fun for anyone (I'm sure opponents are sick of seeing droves of QFB commanders drop on their faces too).

Temennigru
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#915 » Dec 07 2017 10:19

To be honest, you guys are forgetting that we are awful at shooting right now.
We only hit half our shots, and our tank killer weapons (railguns, fusion blasters and rail cannons) can't even kill a dreadnought with maximum damage on a shooting attack.
I wouldn't complain if they gave our battlesuits 3+ to hit and buffed most of our weapons (burst cannons, plasma guns, rail guns, etc.). We would be playing like IG (stand back and shoot), but we would be viable.

PS: I know IG hits on a 4+, but their guns shoot way more than ours do.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#916 » Dec 07 2017 10:40

Temennigru wrote:To be honest, you guys are forgetting that we are awful at shooting right now.
We only hit half our shots, and our tank killer weapons (railguns, fusion blasters and rail cannons) can't even kill a dreadnought with maximum damage on a shooting attack.
I wouldn't complain if they gave our battlesuits 3+ to hit and buffed most of our weapons (burst cannons, plasma guns, rail guns, etc.). We would be playing like IG (stand back and shoot), but we would be viable.

PS: I know IG hits on a 4+, but their guns shoot way more than ours do.


I don't think we need base 3+ to hit, reworked markerlight table will be the biggest effect on our shooting, I wouldn't complain about a return of targeting array but I doubt it at this point.

Our guns aren't rubbish just overcosted why a HRR costs more than 3 Lascannons is beyond me. But with autocannons getting a 20% point reduction in CA for AM hopefully our missile pod variant weapons will see good reductions in the codex as missile pods now cost the same as 2 autocannons.

Plasma guns have had a bit of a highlight in recent discussions so I won't say much other than I agree they need a boost.

Burst cannons should be 4pts and with any sense that's what GW will price them at. How do I get 4 I hear you ask, it's literally halfway between a storm bolter and devourers with brainleech worms

Temennigru
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#917 » Dec 07 2017 11:02

Nymphomanius wrote:
Temennigru wrote:To be honest, you guys are forgetting that we are awful at shooting right now.
We only hit half our shots, and our tank killer weapons (railguns, fusion blasters and rail cannons) can't even kill a dreadnought with maximum damage on a shooting attack.
I wouldn't complain if they gave our battlesuits 3+ to hit and buffed most of our weapons (burst cannons, plasma guns, rail guns, etc.). We would be playing like IG (stand back and shoot), but we would be viable.

PS: I know IG hits on a 4+, but their guns shoot way more than ours do.


I don't think we need base 3+ to hit, reworked markerlight table will be the biggest effect on our shooting, I wouldn't complain about a return of targeting array but I doubt it at this point.

Our guns aren't rubbish just overcosted why a HRR costs more than 3 Lascannons is beyond me. But with autocannons getting a 20% point reduction in CA for AM hopefully our missile pod variant weapons will see good reductions in the codex as missile pods now cost the same as 2 autocannons.

Plasma guns have had a bit of a highlight in recent discussions so I won't say much other than I agree they need a boost.

Burst cannons should be 4pts and with any sense that's what GW will price them at. How do I get 4 I hear you ask, it's literally halfway between a storm bolter and devourers with brainleech worms

The fact that they are overcosted means they are weak for their point values. Tau have always had better and more expensive weapons. I think they should be buffed, rather than have their cost cut.

Just look at the manta's heavy rail cannons. It is one of the most powerful weapons in the game, and it deals on average 6 damage, while the y'vahra's flamer deals on average 27. It used to be a small blast weapon with instant death for 90% of units, but now it is macro 1. It doesn't make any sense. And all the other railguns have the same awful damage. Broadsides deal on average 6, barracuda railguns deal on average 6, and the hammerhead deals on average 3 damage.

And I've never really understood the reasoning behind markerlights. Your highly advanced targeting AI needs someone to point a flashlight on your target for it to understand what it needs to shoot at. And it's not even a continuous beam of light that hits automatically. It's something that you point and it shoots a pulse that you need to hit.
I guess I would be satisfied with "markerlights hit automatically" so we can get those 5 markerlights easier and "seeker missiles hit on a 2+ with markerlights" rather than "the model needs to aim the missiles at the laser". We wouldn't need BS 3+ if that was a thing.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#918 » Dec 07 2017 11:28

Temennigru wrote:The fact that they are overcosted means they are weak for their point values. Tau have always had better and more expensive weapons. I think they should be buffed, rather than have their cost cut.


But how would that work exactly?

Take burst cannons again for Xpts to be worth it would have to be better than the 3 pts cheaper devourers w BLW assault 6 str6 same range same Ap same dmg. So what make burst cannons assault 10? AP2?

To make HRR worth it make em str10 2D6 dmg?

Changing the stats of almost every weapon is a much bigger rework than a points adjustment I just don't see it, 1 or 2 weapons maybe but apart from a few almost all our weapons are overcosted

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