Upcoming T'au Codex

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Nymphomanius
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2125 » Feb 12 2018 10:32

Atlas_MH wrote:Has anyone looked to see if our points cost per unit/weapon/support system are justified if the BS is 3+?

What if the markerlight system was more like:
1 ML: Destroyer/Seeker
2 ML: No Cover
3 Ml: No penalty for moving/advancing
4 ML: +1 BS
5 ML: AP -1

Simple fixes imo that keep the tau focused on ML but not dependent on them to be good. Re-roll ones are too redundant in the index.

What if Commanders are limited to 2 weapons and 2 support systems?


Some people have compared us to SM weapons costs and we're still vastly over priced a BS3+ burst cannon is still worse than BS3+ heavy bolter and that's not factoring range, AFP is just poor only reason 3 mortars are useful for AM is how cheap heavy weapons teams are and I don't see us getting 18pt crisis suits.
Our plasma guns are terrible even in Commander hands due to no way to get D2 either need to be cheaper or 15pts and perma D2
Fusion blaster is actually a little cheap for BS3+ due to extra range and only a bit too much for BS4+
CIB would be OK at BS3+ but as it stands should be 20/30% cheaper
Missile pod is ridiculous with less range and less reliable than autocannon it should not be 60% more expensive than BS3+ autocannon and double the cost of BS4+ autocannon.

And that's just crisis suits weapons I'd be happy to give you my opinion on every weapon in our index.

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Torch
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2126 » Feb 12 2018 11:09

pilky wrote:The thing is Tau have been BS 4+ forever but it's only seemingly an issue in 8th. We've relied on Markerlights forever, but it's only seemingly an issue in 8th. Markerlights have been Heavy forever, but it's only seemingly an issue in 8th. So what has changed in 8th? How Makerlights give us our buffs, with a table rather than a point system.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the concept of Markerlights (i.e. a weapon that exists just to give buffs to other weapons), as proven by 3rd-7th edition Tau. The one thing everyone can agree on is that the implementation of Markerlights in 8th is problematic


I agree that BS 4+ is not the issue. Guard have tons of BS 4+ and they're THE gunline army right now. That comes down to costs. Guard have cheap stuff because their aim isn't so good.

The problem with previous incarnations of markerlights is that they were too good. It was too easy to get insane buffs for little cost. That's why we have a table now.

My main issue with markerlights, is that they can easily over buff an army, so to play it safe our other stuff was balanced around having the markerlights. How else could you justify 20 pt missile pods?

Lastly, and this is entirely subjective, I would prefer markerlights to not give a buff at all. They can be a seeker missile delivery system and stop there, which IMO would be far more interesting. Instead of "light em up" to nuke it with everything, it becomes a specialized anti-tank weapon. Our Skyrays could function from the markerlights of team leaders and fireblades exclusively, in fact it wouldn't even need help for at least one missile. Losing a pathfinder is no big deal because I only need 1-2 markers anyway (right now losing one hurts a lot). Piranhas could start tank hunting very efficiently, with some pathfinder support. Markerlights would still be the most unique weapon system in the game. It would also lend itself to the maneuverability of tau I think.



armisael wrote:I saw one comment in BoLS said that “On the Warhammer40000 FB page, the 40k rep keeps saying "we never said Dark Eldar are next"”
(Has anyone saw it?)

Is that mean T’au codex might be next?


My gut says Necrons first. Simply by how they presented the codexes (necrons on left, Tau middle, Dark Eldar right) and the fact that necrons are getting a model. But, they could do anything.

BillyBones
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2127 » Feb 12 2018 11:10

Well the new systém of modifiers made BS 4+ much worse, since there is a lot of ways to go get -1 to hit and all of sudden you shoot on 5+.

Shas'O Fred
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2128 » Feb 12 2018 11:33

So still no rumors or leaks yet? Thanks have really changed in the years I missed, haha! there used to be rumors (in 5th ed days) months before the codex dropped...

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Torch
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2129 » Feb 12 2018 11:37

Rumor is the codex will drop early or mid march.

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Yojimbob
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2130 » Feb 12 2018 01:13

Atlas_MH wrote:Has anyone looked to see if our points cost per unit/weapon/support system are justified if the BS is 3+?

What if the markerlight system was more like:
1 ML: Destroyer/Seeker
2 ML: No Cover
3 Ml: No penalty for moving/advancing
4 ML: +1 BS
5 ML: AP -1

Simple fixes imo that keep the tau focused on ML but not dependent on them to be good. Re-roll ones are too redundant in the index.

What if Commanders are limited to 2 weapons and 2 support systems?


No cover and ap-1 is a bit too much built into the markerlight table. Not saying we won't get a way to reduce armor but it won't come from ML table.

pilky
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2131 » Feb 12 2018 01:49

Torch wrote:
pilky wrote:The thing is Tau have been BS 4+ forever but it's only seemingly an issue in 8th. We've relied on Markerlights forever, but it's only seemingly an issue in 8th. Markerlights have been Heavy forever, but it's only seemingly an issue in 8th. So what has changed in 8th? How Makerlights give us our buffs, with a table rather than a point system.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the concept of Markerlights (i.e. a weapon that exists just to give buffs to other weapons), as proven by 3rd-7th edition Tau. The one thing everyone can agree on is that the implementation of Markerlights in 8th is problematic


I agree that BS 4+ is not the issue. Guard have tons of BS 4+ and they're THE gunline army right now. That comes down to costs. Guard have cheap stuff because their aim isn't so good.

The problem with previous incarnations of markerlights is that they were too good. It was too easy to get insane buffs for little cost. That's why we have a table now.

My main issue with markerlights, is that they can easily over buff an army, so to play it safe our other stuff was balanced around having the markerlights. How else could you justify 20 pt missile pods?

Lastly, and this is entirely subjective, I would prefer markerlights to not give a buff at all. They can be a seeker missile delivery system and stop there, which IMO would be far more interesting. Instead of "light em up" to nuke it with everything, it becomes a specialized anti-tank weapon. Our Skyrays could function from the markerlights of team leaders and fireblades exclusively, in fact it wouldn't even need help for at least one missile. Losing a pathfinder is no big deal because I only need 1-2 markers anyway (right now losing one hurts a lot). Piranhas could start tank hunting very efficiently, with some pathfinder support. Markerlights would still be the most unique weapon system in the game. It would also lend itself to the maneuverability of tau I think.


I don’t think they were “too good”. The “ignores cover” was over powered for just 2 points, but cover is now a +1 save and AP5 has been nerfed completely out of existence so it's fine now. The BS buffing was reasonably well balanced, until we got “coordinated firepower” in 7th which massively overpowered it with both getting a free +1 BS and letting markerlights be shared. It means you could buff 36 fire warriors to BS 2+ for just 1 markerlight, which slaughtered any and all infantry.

And limiting to just seeker missiles would massively throw out the balance of our codex. Sky rays would have to be dirt cheap or no-one would take them as after 2-3 turns they'd be useless. Fireblades, Firesight Marksmen, and Darkstrider would have to drop 30-50% in points as their use as “first strike” markerlights is gone. And pathfinders and marker drones would be all but useless. The only other option would be to let all suits and even support turrets take seeker missiles to balance that out and make those units worthwhile, but then you throw external balance out of whack as then we becomes a mortal wound bullet storm (something they're actively moving away from with things like Smite).

And this is partly what I mean when I describe markerlights as “core to our gameplay”. So many of our units are built around them being buff units. It's a rare thing in 40k, even in 8th, to have a “support class” mechanic in an army, outside of lone characters. It has historically allowed us to play in a much different manner to all other armies, with different tactics and strategies.

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Darthi
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2132 » Feb 12 2018 02:39

As much I know from my local GW The next releases Are for Aos. So it could take a Little while.

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Temennigru
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2133 » Feb 12 2018 02:54

pilky wrote:
The thing is Tau have been BS 4+ forever but it's only seemingly an issue in 8th. We've relied on Markerlights forever, but it's only seemingly an issue in 8th. Markerlights have been Heavy forever, but it's only seemingly an issue in 8th. So what has changed in 8th? How Makerlights give us our buffs, with a table rather than a point system.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the concept of Markerlights (i.e. a weapon that exists just to give buffs to other weapons), as proven by 3rd-7th edition Tau. The one thing everyone can agree on is that the implementation of Markerlights in 8th is problematic

BS4+ is a problem in 8e because most of our units lost the ability to move and fire heavy weapons (which was a part of jetpack) in favor of movingand getting -1 to hit and negative hit modifiers is now a thing.
And since we need markerlight support, negative hit modifiers now affect us quadratically.

pilky
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2134 » Feb 12 2018 04:25

Temennigru wrote:
pilky wrote:
The thing is Tau have been BS 4+ forever but it's only seemingly an issue in 8th. We've relied on Markerlights forever, but it's only seemingly an issue in 8th. Markerlights have been Heavy forever, but it's only seemingly an issue in 8th. So what has changed in 8th? How Makerlights give us our buffs, with a table rather than a point system.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the concept of Markerlights (i.e. a weapon that exists just to give buffs to other weapons), as proven by 3rd-7th edition Tau. The one thing everyone can agree on is that the implementation of Markerlights in 8th is problematic

BS4+ is a problem in 8e because most of our units lost the ability to move and fire heavy weapons (which was a part of jetpack) in favor of movingand getting -1 to hit and negative hit modifiers is now a thing.
And since we need markerlight support, negative hit modifiers now affect us quadratically.


To a degree. The heavy weapon issue only affects the Riptide, Ghostkeel, our flyers, and our tanks. The first 2 can be handled with target locks (not ideal but only 12pts, and they get bonuses jet packs never gave us). The tanks are mixed (one weapon gains, one loses) compared to 7th if they move up to 6”, but have gained in 8th if they move 6-12”. Our flyers are the only ones to have really been screwed by it. Technically Broadsides and anything carrying a markerlight got a major boost in 8th.


Darthi wrote:As much I know from my local GW The next releases Are for Aos. So it could take a Little while.


Hopefully we should find out the next codex in a week or 2. Assuming Tau don’t get any model releases we could end up going first alongside a model release for AoS. We already know Necrons are getting models, and I'd suspect Dark Eldar will too, so they won’t likely see overlap. Though it's all guess work for now

Dren_Nas
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2135 » Feb 12 2018 08:30

imo, tau need to hit on a 3+ normally with a reward for the markerlights giving you a 2+ or erasing a penalties for heavy movement or assault advancing modifiers to be competitive. We have very little melee ability, so we need to keep our mobility. Even the guard has bullgryns who are just about better than assault terminators (still in my opinion).

Other than that, tweaking our point costs to bring them in line would go a long way to help.

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Temennigru
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2136 » Feb 12 2018 08:47

Dren_Nas wrote:imo, tau need to hit on a 3+ normally with a reward for the markerlights giving you a 2+ or erasing a penalties for heavy movement or assault advancing modifiers to be competitive. We have very little melee ability, so we need to keep our mobility. Even the guard has bullgryns who are just about better than assault terminators (still in my opinion).

Other than that, tweaking our point costs to bring them in line would go a long way to help.

Technically we have kroot.

But the guardsmen themselves are also average at melee, so there's that.
Our biggest issue is not being able to smite or do anything against smite.
And we have nothing to make up for that.

Dren_Nas
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2137 » Feb 12 2018 08:54

Temennigru wrote:
Dren_Nas wrote:imo, tau need to hit on a 3+ normally with a reward for the markerlights giving you a 2+ or erasing a penalties for heavy movement or assault advancing modifiers to be competitive. We have very little melee ability, so we need to keep our mobility. Even the guard has bullgryns who are just about better than assault terminators (still in my opinion).

Other than that, tweaking our point costs to bring them in line would go a long way to help.

Technically we have kroot.

But the guardsmen themselves are also average at melee, so there's that.
Our biggest issue is not being able to smite or do anything against smite.
And we have nothing to make up for that.



True enough, but the kroot aren't exactly a viable alternative.

"Trade your shoots for kroots!" isn't a good catchphrase, lol.

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Temennigru
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2138 » Feb 12 2018 08:58

Dren_Nas wrote:
Temennigru wrote:
Dren_Nas wrote:imo, tau need to hit on a 3+ normally with a reward for the markerlights giving you a 2+ or erasing a penalties for heavy movement or assault advancing modifiers to be competitive. We have very little melee ability, so we need to keep our mobility. Even the guard has bullgryns who are just about better than assault terminators (still in my opinion).

Other than that, tweaking our point costs to bring them in line would go a long way to help.

Technically we have kroot.

But the guardsmen themselves are also average at melee, so there's that.
Our biggest issue is not being able to smite or do anything against smite.
And we have nothing to make up for that.



True enough, but the kroot aren't exactly a viable alternative.

"Trade your shoots for kroots!" isn't a good catchphrase, lol.

Kroot hounds specifically are actually very good distraction and melee mitigation units.
They run really friggin fast and they have a fairly decent melee. All that for half the price of a drone.
As a matter of fact, I find them to be better bubble wrap than fire warriors. Put 12 of them around a coldstar commander and you have yourself an unchargeable, unshootable powerhouse. You won't even need a shield generator!

Dren_Nas
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2139 » Feb 12 2018 09:11

Temennigru wrote:
Dren_Nas wrote:
Temennigru wrote:Technically we have kroot.

But the guardsmen themselves are also average at melee, so there's that.
Our biggest issue is not being able to smite or do anything against smite.
And we have nothing to make up for that.



True enough, but the kroot aren't exactly a viable alternative.

"Trade your shoots for kroots!" isn't a good catchphrase, lol.

Kroot hounds specifically are actually very good distraction and melee mitigation units.
They run really friggin fast and they have a fairly decent melee. All that for half the price of a drone.


I suppose so, but they're still as weak as tissues. Would you run them in a 2k point army?

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Bloodknife92
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2140 » Feb 12 2018 10:59

On the topic of Markerlights (which went from a gift from god to the devil's lash in just one edition change), I see them going one of two ways:
1: they scrap the +1 to hit and replace it with "ignores negative modifiers" since they make our entire army invalid anyway (because other armies can just avoid negative modifiers by using melee or psychic) and simply give us BS3+, or...
2: they cut the cost on 90% of our entries drastically, reduce Commander effectiveness (PLEASE be limit: 1 per detachment) and leave the +1 to hit on the Markerlight table, albeit at a different number (say, 3 or 4).

The problem I have with Markerlights is that their benefits aren't all exclusive. Re-rolling 1s already comes from a number of different sources, Seeker missiles at user BS are exclusive, move and shoot heavy without penalty comes from another source, remove cover is exclusive, and finally +1 to hit is exclusive on some units (most of our units that would possibly need it). 2 of the easiest ones to get are not exclusive, and really makes anything less than 4 Markerlights useless, and the ability to remove cover only applies to infantry or someone with a cool special rule, so its a lot less useful than it sounds. Sure, I like ignoring cover, but I don't like having to pay up near 80 points for the POSSIBILITY of igboring cover when AdMech get it on their troops for 10 points.

Markerlights are too much of a gamble, and for this reason, their being a core mechanic for us turns our chance of victory into pure gamble, instead of part tactical decision making and part luck (this is of course in a balanced army, and not Commander spam). If they are to remain a core mechanic, they need to be made quintupply more reliable so we CAN use them as a core mechanic.

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Temennigru
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2141 » Feb 13 2018 12:33

Bloodknife92 wrote:On the topic of Markerlights (which went from a gift from god to the devil's lash in just one edition change), I see them going one of two ways:
1: they scrap the +1 to hit and replace it with "ignores negative modifiers" since they make our entire army invalid anyway (because other armies can just avoid negative modifiers by using melee or psychic) and simply give us BS3+, or...
2: they cut the cost on 90% of our entries drastically, reduce Commander effectiveness (PLEASE be limit: 1 per detachment) and leave the +1 to hit on the Markerlight table, albeit at a different number (say, 3 or 4).

The problem I have with Markerlights is that their benefits aren't all exclusive. Re-rolling 1s already comes from a number of different sources, Seeker missiles at user BS are exclusive, move and shoot heavy without penalty comes from another source, remove cover is exclusive, and finally +1 to hit is exclusive on some units (most of our units that would possibly need it). 2 of the easiest ones to get are not exclusive, and really makes anything less than 4 Markerlights useless, and the ability to remove cover only applies to infantry or someone with a cool special rule, so its a lot less useful than it sounds. Sure, I like ignoring cover, but I don't like having to pay up near 80 points for the POSSIBILITY of igboring cover when AdMech get it on their troops for 10 points.

Markerlights are too much of a gamble, and for this reason, their being a core mechanic for us turns our chance of victory into pure gamble, instead of part tactical decision making and part luck (this is of course in a balanced army, and not Commander spam). If they are to remain a core mechanic, they need to be made quintupply more reliable so we CAN use them as a core mechanic.

I would be fine with markerlights staying as they are if they were auto-hits.
It would even be WAY more fluffly.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2142 » Feb 13 2018 12:44

I'd love to see (and may ask a friend to playtest it see if it's broken or balanced) a markerlight table like this
Also remove RR1's from table altogether but give suits back their free Multi-tracker.

1. +1 to hit/ seekers hit on 5+
2. Ignore negative modifiers for moving with heavy weapons or advance with assault weapons / Seeker hit on 4+
3. Ignore bonuses granted by cover (including penalties to hit granted for being in cover by an ability)
4. +1 to hit / Seekers hit on 3+
5. Any casualties caused by shooting this turn count as 2 for purposes of morale check / seekers hit on 2+
6. Any rolls of 7+ to hit generate an additional shot (these shots cannot generate further shots)

I feel that would make seekers more useful, tetras would be able to benefit from Markerlights to add their own without providing excess lights, we can attain 2+ to hits again but not too easy, also markerlights used to affect morale checks so brought an element of that back in.

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