Upcoming T'au Codex

Use this area for all discussions of the "gaming" aspect of 40K/Tau.
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CDR_Farsight
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2161 » Feb 15 2018 02:23

Temennigru wrote:
Shas'O R'Kai wrote:Regarding Rail-rifles/Rail weaponry in general, I think Heavy D3 would fix a lot. Rail-rifles being Heavy D3 seems a lot more thematic. They're more akin to a high powered sniper rifle. Keeping them at S6 AP-4 D D3 but Heavy 3 and making them 15-17 points would work wonders. Then we have a gun that wants to stay immobile along with the markerlights, can operate at long range, is cheap enough to consider taking on a fragile platform, and can hurt a wide variety of targets. If it gained S7 it would need to cost perhaps 18/19 points, but at that point I think it's verging on too expensive for the platform its on.

The Heavy Rail-rifle needs S9 and a points reduction to make Broadsides cheap enough to take, and the Railgun needs Heavy D3 S14 AP-4 D D6.

d3 weapons are the old blast weapons.
Railguns are not blast weapons (with the exception of the heavy railgun, but even then it was not translated as a blast weapon)



Fluff-wise, I'm not a huge fan of variable shot rail. I think they just need to increase the damage reliability by making them flat 3 for rifles, 6 for HRR, and 6+D6 for RC. The Mortal Wound bit is just a gimmick imho. If they combine that with a bit of a strength bump 7, 10, 14 respectively and bonuses to standing still and shooting (I.E. - Fire Twice or Reroll both hits and wounds) then I would agree with the points costs for rail as is.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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QimRas
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2162 » Feb 15 2018 02:28

For Rail weapons, it would be interesting if they had an "Always hits on a 3+". They have similar language for wounds on some weapons. Always wounding would also be another interesting variant of the rule.

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Temennigru
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2163 » Feb 15 2018 02:39

CDR_Farsight wrote:

Fluff-wise, I'm not a huge fan of variable shot rail. I think they just need to increase the damage reliability by making them flat 3 for rifles, 6 for HRR, and 6+D6 for RC. The Mortal Wound bit is just a gimmick imho. If they combine that with a bit of a strength bump 7, 10, 14 respectively and bonuses to standing still and shooting (I.E. - Fire Twice or Reroll both hits and wounds) then I would agree with the points costs for rail as is.

Here's a fun idea:
if you stand still, you can fire a high powered shot that deals double damage and has more strength and AP. Just like astra has the "stand still and fire twice" rule.
If you move, you can still fire the high powered shot, but it deals one mortal wound to you.

Not sure if I would add this to rail rifles though. I'm OK with them being different rules-wise, since they are portable infantry weapons.

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MNGamer
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2164 » Feb 15 2018 02:50

How about:
1 CP- Concentrated Power
All weapons with the “rail” keyword may fire at double strength, ap, and damage. This stratagem may only be used once per game.
Even when broken, a sword may still cut~Aun'ko'vash

pilky
Shas'La
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2165 » Feb 15 2018 02:56

I don’t think there is anything too wrong with rail weapons as is in terms of rules. I mean Rail Guns, HRR, and Rail Rifles map reasonably well to Lascannons and Plasma Rifles in terms of filling similar roles. We generally have better range better strength, better AP, and the chance of mortal wounds. As a bonus we get submunitions on the Rail Gun. I think for the most part we just need points changes.

For example, there's no reason a Hammerhead should be nearly 30 points more than a Predator when the only stat differences are 2 extra wounds and Fly, and it has fewer weapons slots. Railguns aren’t too badly priced. Rail Rifles need to drop in cost a lot to reflect a 5+ save model being the carrier, but Rapid Fire is pretty good.

The hardest is the HRR. One possibility that could be interesting is giving it a submunitions shot like the Railgun. The option of a S5 AP-1 blast gives you more tactical flexibility. They could also make it “roll 2D6 and pick the highest” for the number of shots to reflect the twin nature. I doubt it would happen, but it would certainly make the HRR a more interesting option vs missile pods.

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Temennigru
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2166 » Feb 15 2018 03:30

pilky wrote:I don’t think there is anything too wrong with rail weapons as is in terms of rules. I mean Rail Guns, HRR, and Rail Rifles map reasonably well to Lascannons and Plasma Rifles in terms of filling similar roles. We generally have better range better strength, better AP, and the chance of mortal wounds. As a bonus we get submunitions on the Rail Gun. I think for the most part we just need points changes.

For example, there's no reason a Hammerhead should be nearly 30 points more than a Predator when the only stat differences are 2 extra wounds and Fly, and it has fewer weapons slots. Railguns aren’t too badly priced. Rail Rifles need to drop in cost a lot to reflect a 5+ save model being the carrier, but Rapid Fire is pretty good.

The hardest is the HRR. One possibility that could be interesting is giving it a submunitions shot like the Railgun. The option of a S5 AP-1 blast gives you more tactical flexibility. They could also make it “roll 2D6 and pick the highest” for the number of shots to reflect the twin nature. I doubt it would happen, but it would certainly make the HRR a more interesting option vs missile pods.

We actually don’t
Lascannons are str 9.
Heavy rail rifles and swiftstrike railguns are str8.
And lascannons are spammable. A predator annihilator can have 4. A hammerhead can have 1 railgun.

Shas'o Shortsight
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2167 » Feb 15 2018 03:38

And while the railgun has higher strength, it only matters against toughness 5. That is why people ask for strength 14.

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Temennigru
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2168 » Feb 15 2018 03:52

Shas'o Shortsight wrote:And while the railgun has higher strength, it only matters against toughness 5. That is why people ask for strength 14.

It’s not even asking that much.
Warlord titans have Str32 weapons :P

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Yojimbob
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2169 » Feb 15 2018 03:57

I'll let you guys know what our rail weapons change (or don't!) to after this weekend when I talk with some of the playtesters. They may have some insight as to where stuff ended up.

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Temennigru
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2170 » Feb 15 2018 04:02

Yojimbob wrote:I'll let you guys know what our rail weapons change (or don't!) to after this weekend when I talk with some of the playtesters. They may have some insight as to where stuff ended up.

Yay!
Our first leaks :D

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Darthi
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2171 » Feb 15 2018 04:30

Yojimbob wrote:I'll let you guys know what our rail weapons change (or don't!) to after this weekend when I talk with some of the playtesters. They may have some insight as to where stuff ended up.

Too too The Leaktrain is coming. :D

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Yojimbob
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2172 » Feb 15 2018 04:43

Darthi wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:I'll let you guys know what our rail weapons change (or don't!) to after this weekend when I talk with some of the playtesters. They may have some insight as to where stuff ended up.

Too too The Leaktrain is coming. :D


Haha, I wouldn't go that far but I will definitely be among those who at least playtested the stuff. Could get some insight but we'll see.

Ricordis
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2173 » Feb 15 2018 04:56

Temennigru wrote:Here's a fun idea:
if you stand still, you can fire a high powered shot that deals double damage and has more strength and AP. Just like astra has the "stand still and fire twice" rule.
If you move, you can still fire the high powered shot, but it deals one mortal wound to you.

Not sure if I would add this to rail rifles though. I'm OK with them being different rules-wise, since they are portable infantry weapons.


It doesn't have to be that complicated, just work with weapon profiles.
A railgun may have a lower S/D Rapid Fire fire profile together with a high S/D Heavy profile.
Varying rate of fire also sounds really attractive to me as a general tool for T'au.

It might sound stupid to take an idea from the videogame Dawn of War but to simulate heavy weapons they had to be set up before they were able to fire.
Tau Firewarriors were the only infantry unit that also needed to do so without having a heavy weapon but they had enough firepower to hurt vehicles. Also their huge max-range (only non-sniper infantry I know which could fire at targets outside of my screen) outdid their view range thus they needed "scouts" or something to maximize their power.

This made me think to overhaul even the simplest weapon mechanics T'au have to represent their adaptibility.
As I am really bad in estimating point costs or weapons stats in general and their impact I don't even try to do so but I can really see a possibility of changing most T'au weapons to heavy with reducing the shot count but increasing range/S/AP/D significantly and a secondary profile as assault weapon with higher shot count but less range/S/AP/D. Maybe even with minimum ranges, who knows.
The tool to do so is right there: weapon profiles. There' doesn't need to be any new rules or other shenanigans to represent stuff like this.

pilky
Shas'La
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2174 » Feb 15 2018 05:03

Temennigru wrote:
pilky wrote:I don’t think there is anything too wrong with rail weapons as is in terms of rules. I mean Rail Guns, HRR, and Rail Rifles map reasonably well to Lascannons and Plasma Rifles in terms of filling similar roles. We generally have better range better strength, better AP, and the chance of mortal wounds. As a bonus we get submunitions on the Rail Gun. I think for the most part we just need points changes.

For example, there's no reason a Hammerhead should be nearly 30 points more than a Predator when the only stat differences are 2 extra wounds and Fly, and it has fewer weapons slots. Railguns aren’t too badly priced. Rail Rifles need to drop in cost a lot to reflect a 5+ save model being the carrier, but Rapid Fire is pretty good.

The hardest is the HRR. One possibility that could be interesting is giving it a submunitions shot like the Railgun. The option of a S5 AP-1 blast gives you more tactical flexibility. They could also make it “roll 2D6 and pick the highest” for the number of shots to reflect the twin nature. I doubt it would happen, but it would certainly make the HRR a more interesting option vs missile pods.

We actually don’t
Lascannons are str 9.
Heavy rail rifles and swiftstrike railguns are str8.
And lascannons are spammable. A predator annihilator can have 4. A hammerhead can have 1 railgun.


Sure, you can't make direct comparison but they're somewhat similar. A lascannon is slightly better than a HRR vs T8, but for T7 and lower the HRR is better. And I agree about the spamability but that is fixed by appropriately costing the Hammerhead. The railgun itself is only slightly overcosted vs a lascannon (the inverse problem of the Rail Rifle where the gun is too expensive but the bearer isn't badly priced)

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Temennigru
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2175 » Feb 15 2018 05:29

pilky wrote:
Temennigru wrote:
pilky wrote:I don’t think there is anything too wrong with rail weapons as is in terms of rules. I mean Rail Guns, HRR, and Rail Rifles map reasonably well to Lascannons and Plasma Rifles in terms of filling similar roles. We generally have better range better strength, better AP, and the chance of mortal wounds. As a bonus we get submunitions on the Rail Gun. I think for the most part we just need points changes.

For example, there's no reason a Hammerhead should be nearly 30 points more than a Predator when the only stat differences are 2 extra wounds and Fly, and it has fewer weapons slots. Railguns aren’t too badly priced. Rail Rifles need to drop in cost a lot to reflect a 5+ save model being the carrier, but Rapid Fire is pretty good.

The hardest is the HRR. One possibility that could be interesting is giving it a submunitions shot like the Railgun. The option of a S5 AP-1 blast gives you more tactical flexibility. They could also make it “roll 2D6 and pick the highest” for the number of shots to reflect the twin nature. I doubt it would happen, but it would certainly make the HRR a more interesting option vs missile pods.

We actually don’t
Lascannons are str 9.
Heavy rail rifles and swiftstrike railguns are str8.
And lascannons are spammable. A predator annihilator can have 4. A hammerhead can have 1 railgun.


Sure, you can't make direct comparison but they're somewhat similar. A lascannon is slightly better than a HRR vs T8, but for T7 and lower the HRR is better. And I agree about the spamability but that is fixed by appropriately costing the Hammerhead. The railgun itself is only slightly overcosted vs a lascannon (the inverse problem of the Rail Rifle where the gun is too expensive but the bearer isn't badly priced)

Reducing the cost of the hammerhead wouldn't fix the problem with lascannon spammability. The whole point of having spammable weapons, is each one you cram into a platform you chip away at the cost of the vehicle till it's meaningless. 4 lascannons means you pay for 1/4 of a predator for each lascannon you can field. That means, for the hammerhead to be in equal terms, it would have to cost about 1/3 the price of a predator (because of drones and stuff) and that is really bad because:
1- The hammerhead would basically be a lascannon heavy weapons team with way more survivability, which would make it very unbalanced
2- We would have to buy 4 hammerheads for each predator annihilator a space marine player has to buy to field the same firepower, which would make our army wildly overpriced in $$ terms.

That is why your big stuff needs to have big impact. Otherwise you are just getting an overpriced version of your basic infantry.

I honestly think the best course of action is to have the railgun have AT LEAST double the firepower of a lascannon (I would make it triple) and have the whole kit cost as much as a predator with 2 lascannons.

As for the price of the railguns, they are not just "slightly overcosted".
A swiftstrike railgun, which is essentially a heavy rail rifle with shorter range, costs DOUBLE the number of points of a twin lascannon.
That is unacceptable.
Not only that, but the heavy rail rifle, which deals less average damage than a twin lascannon, is 10 points more expensive than the twin lascannon simply because it has 12" more of range and a higher AP (which is actually worse than +1 Str). This is also unacceptable.
As people have stated before, GW has been over-pricing range this edition for absolutely no reason. It does not help you that much since you will almost never be shooting at a target from the far ends of the table. They are pricing range in the opposite way that they should. An increase in range at shorter ranges should be WAY more valuable than an increase in range at longer ranges. But since they are doing the points increases relative to the scale of the model, and larger models have the highest ranges, the increase in ranges at higher ranges turn out to be way more expensive than at lower ranges. A 100% increase in range at 6" to 12" should practically double the price of the weapon, while 48" to 60" should be worth only about 3 or 5 points. That is, given that the weapons have IDENTICAL stats, which the railgun and lascannon don't.

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Bloodknife92
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2176 » Feb 15 2018 11:37

I'd love to discuss Broadsides, specifically Railsides.

I've loved Railsides since before Missilesides existed. They were always one of my favourite units. Two mass acceleration guns that can ruin any armour, mounted on a battlesuit?! Yes please! But they just don't love up to what they used to be now.

I played 1500pts against my AdMech friend, and for less points than the cost of my 3 Railsides with Drones(and plasma to lower costs) he had a knight with WAY more wounds, toughness, hit chance, firepower, movement (ignoring penalty too) and finally, with amazing melee devastation. Railsides with drones cost near 200pts each. Lets look at a Venerable Dred, which at 165pts has two Lascannons AND a Missile Launcher, hits on 2+ and has more: strength, toughness, wounds, Ld and gets to ignore damage on 6+(a fair trade for our save being 1 better). 165 pts and hits on 2+ with better weapons... This makes me sour, like, pure malic acid sour! There is something seriously wrong when this is the case. I won't even BEGIN to compare Onager Dunecrawlers to our Hammerheads.

AleksandrGRC
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2177 » Feb 15 2018 11:41

We would have been better off without saviour protocol and just a fairly priced army instead.

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shasocastris
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2178 » Feb 16 2018 12:50

Yojimbob wrote:
Darthi wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:I'll let you guys know what our rail weapons change (or don't!) to after this weekend when I talk with some of the playtesters. They may have some insight as to where stuff ended up.

Too too The Leaktrain is coming. :D


Haha, I wouldn't go that far but I will definitely be among those who at least playtested the stuff. Could get some insight but we'll see.


I'll step in here and remind everyone that wishlisting isn't part of the ATT mission. We know that the codex is going to drop within a few weeks so at this point, it's merely a waiting game. Of course, leaks are worth discussing and are fair game. However, remember that they might not have any context, so please let's not panic if they sound terrible or celebrate prematurely if they sound amazing.

Cheers!

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