Upcoming T'au Codex

Use this area for all discussions of the "gaming" aspect of 40K/Tau.
User avatar
FoxZz
Shas
Posts: 43

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2089 » Feb 11 2018 05:44

I think with 'Vre at BS 3+, ML should still provide an additional +1 to BS, but could stay on the higher end of the markerlight table.

On Stealthsuits, I disagree with all getting 3+, it would be ok balance wise, but what could explain Stealth suits having more accuracy than more expensive Crisis suits ?

About Broadsides, Mandatory team is 2 suits, one of them can be a Shas'vre. So it's half of the unit firing on 3+ which is quite good. So you could optimize it by placing therailgun on the 'vre and the Missile System on the 'ui. But, TBH, Broadsides could get a general 3+ BS and it would be legit.

I prefer Seeker missiles as a Mortar Wounds delivrery platforms considering they are almost the only way to deal those along with 6s on railguns, whereas we already have plenty of weapons dealing high dammage. It would be intesresting though to buff Seeker Missile to destroyer Missile level (with price nerf ofc), and buff similarly Destoyer Missiles.
Another option is to give the Skyray Destoyer Missiles.

About the other hard changes necessary, other than the usual price increase (commanders, gun drones) and reductions (the rest), and in addition to the 'vre BS reform I would mention :

- Markerlight table change : Stays an army wide buff, but instead of a table becomes a "credit" with abilities costing X amount of Markerlights. It would make all the perks usefull when you really need them instead of this silly hierarchy between them, also introduce a ML managment instead of the no brainer "I need to get 5 MLs". Some would cost more than others of course.
Price could be the following :
1 Markerlight cost : Rerolling 1s, Firing Seeker Missiles on user BS.
2 Markerlight cost : Ignoring cover, free fire and advance/move for assault/heavy weapons (and I would add advance and -1 to fire for rapid fire weapons)
4 Markerlight cost : +1 to BS.

- Plasma, Rail Weapons, Burst Cannons (and its many variants), Missile Pods (and variants), Pulse Carabine (only on soldiers) need a rework
- Kroot overall, like +1 attack and -1 AP on the kroot rifle blades as well as +1 to cover and +1 movement for 7 points for the Carnivores.
- Pathfinders get -1 to hit
- Sniper Drones deal a mortal wound on a 6+ wound roll
- Crisis Suits, and Devilfish chassis vehicles get +2 movement. Jetpack keyword allows an auto +6 advance move instead of D6
- Return of offensive grenades (for breachers for example)
- Darkstrider and Longstrike become general HQ choices (could be Armored Leader and Cadre Shockwave ?)

Other Ideas :

- Pulse Blaster auto-hits at 5" and Breachers all carry a pistol.
- For all Infantry keyword units, when a wound is dealt by a pulse carabine, you can choose to replace it with a Photon Grenade effect (not cumulative).
- Kroot Gun profile changed to Rapidfire D3,
- Kroot hounds always attack first in combat, and can be attached to another unit (like drones)
- Flamer should ignore cover (considering it's a weapon invented to clean tranches and bunkers)

User avatar
Torch
Shas'Saal
Posts: 77

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2090 » Feb 11 2018 05:46

Kelandis wrote:
Torch wrote:All crisis suits are Shas'vre. The only suits that it applies to are Stealth Suits and they tend to operate solo in the fluff anyway, so they wouldn't get Marker support.


Only the crisis squad leader is a 'Vre, the others are 'Ui. That change would also negatively affect a broadside squad, as the squad leader there is the only 'Vre as well, and they definitely get marker light support being a heavy fire platform.


Woops my mistake, sorry. :dead: Crisis bodyguards would be Shas'vre, just not the regular teams.

Though now that I think about it, I kinda like the idea of team leaders being better than their team. They're showing them the ropes. And it would give bodyguard teams an edge. Unfortunately, GW no longer prices squad leaders differently, so that won't happen.

Instead, the increase in rank only corresponds to increased attacks, with Shas'vre getting 3. Not sure how that helps with our WS 5+. Then all of a sudden Shas'o gets BS 2+ and WS 3+. :?

Regardless I'm personally just not a fan of how markerlights boost BS. They should just guide missiles and stop there. Then we can go about balancing units without the constant fear of "but it will be OP with markerlights". But that's just me... I don't know how you all feel about this.

User avatar
Zadocfish
Shas'Saal
Posts: 63

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2091 » Feb 11 2018 05:50

It's not much of an issue... getting 5 Markerlights on one target is both a waste and a chore with the current Markerlight chart.
I am a Christian.

User avatar
Torch
Shas'Saal
Posts: 77

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2092 » Feb 11 2018 06:07

Don't forget the -1 to hit traits ;)

User avatar
Temennigru
Shas'Saal
Posts: 359

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2093 » Feb 11 2018 06:29

PullsyJr wrote:Requiring Markerlight support is bad design. What if I want to play an all suit army? I still need to take Pathfinders? There is no other army in the game that has such an inane dependence on a single unit (yes, Marker Drones exist but the argument stays the same).

Tau are a shooting army. They do literally nothing else. They're not a movement army, despite what some say (Jet Packs move 8" while Jump Packs move 12"; our basic transport is hugely expensive, meaning most units are foot sloggers). They're not a psychic army. They're not a melee army. Let them shoot well: at least the elite units.

Since 8th edition I have played twice with Tau before dropping them for a different army because every other army with the exception of Khorne Daemons can out-shoot us.

My hopes are that GW makes enough changes to the Tau in order to make them usable. I do not expect that to happen, but I've been wrong before.

I agree. Markerlights should make your army better. They should not be a requirement. Every unit should be good by itself (unless support is intrinsic to its design, like sniper drones)

Torch wrote:Regardless I'm personally just not a fan of how markerlights boost BS. They should just guide missiles and stop there. Then we can go about balancing units without the constant fear of "but it will be OP with markerlights". But that's just me... I don't know how you all feel about this.

I agree. It makes no sense for lasers boosting our accuracy.
They should work just like they do nowadays: you can either use them as a sight or you can use them to designate missile targets.
They should let the user reroll ones to hit or give up shooting to make a missile hit on a 2+.

pilky
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 331

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2094 » Feb 11 2018 07:18

Temennigru wrote:
PullsyJr wrote:Requiring Markerlight support is bad design. What if I want to play an all suit army? I still need to take Pathfinders? There is no other army in the game that has such an inane dependence on a single unit (yes, Marker Drones exist but the argument stays the same).

Tau are a shooting army. They do literally nothing else. They're not a movement army, despite what some say (Jet Packs move 8" while Jump Packs move 12"; our basic transport is hugely expensive, meaning most units are foot sloggers). They're not a psychic army. They're not a melee army. Let them shoot well: at least the elite units.

Since 8th edition I have played twice with Tau before dropping them for a different army because every other army with the exception of Khorne Daemons can out-shoot us.

My hopes are that GW makes enough changes to the Tau in order to make them usable. I do not expect that to happen, but I've been wrong before.

I agree. Markerlights should make your army better. They should not be a requirement. Every unit should be good by itself (unless support is intrinsic to its design, like sniper drones)


I'd have to heavily disagree. Markerlights are as core to Tau as an army as fire warriors and crisis suits. Visually we may be defined by our suits, but gameplay wise we have ALWAYS been defined by our markerlights. They are the one thing we have that no other army has: A way to buff our units army-wide. Honestly you could fix 90% of the problems with our current index army list by fixing the markerlight table. If you reverted markerlights to the old system we'd find pretty much every unit usable and justifiable in taking.

If you don’t want to take them then that's fine, you get more points for non markerlight units, as has always been the case. It was perfectly doable pre-8th, and a 4+ BS never hurt us then

User avatar
Temennigru
Shas'Saal
Posts: 359

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2095 » Feb 11 2018 08:16

pilky wrote:I'd have to heavily disagree. Markerlights are as core to Tau as an army as fire warriors and crisis suits. Visually we may be defined by our suits, but gameplay wise we have ALWAYS been defined by our markerlights. They are the one thing we have that no other army has: A way to buff our units army-wide. Honestly you could fix 90% of the problems with our current index army list by fixing the markerlight table. If you reverted markerlights to the old system we'd find pretty much every unit usable and justifiable in taking.

If you don’t want to take them then that's fine, you get more points for non markerlight units, as has always been the case. It was perfectly doable pre-8th, and a 4+ BS never hurt us then

We have always had JSJ as well and that was removed.
And markerlights are not an army-wide buff. They are a buff against a single enemy unit, rather than to everyone in an area.
The difference is area buffs don’t need a dice roll to work, so markerlights are arguably worse than effortless area buffs.
And markerlights don’t make any sense. In the fluff, we have never needed someone pointing a laser at the enemy to shoot just as well as space marines.

shadowsong47
Shas
Posts: 5

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2096 » Feb 11 2018 08:36

I just want our army to stop being so random. Nothing feels worse than landing a +4 (or +5 to hit) and then rolling low on D6 or constant 1's on D3 damage. Why do all our more powerful weapons hit so randomly. Cyclic goes from steady 3 to D3 for a grand whopping 1 str and D3 wounds. Why cant we get a static assault 3 and 2D. We suffer terribly from poor weapon output as it is.

Riptide is pretty egregious..

Overcharged - Heavy D6 STR 8 AP -3 D3 ... Random damage..

Nova Charged - STILL heavy D6 STR 9 Ap-3 3D .. Better damage but again RANDOM shots after forcing an automatic wound on the unit. If anything the riptide needs to be like its FW brothers at H 3D3.

Also we have way way wayyyyy too much STR 5 AP0 1D weaponry. Storm-surge im looking hard at you. Weapon profiles going into the codex need to be modified. We have too many placeholder profiles across separate variants of weapons.

Why in the hell should a missile pod be IDENTICAL to a HIGH YIELD missile pod? (sans the extra 2 shots). Why should a cyclic ion blaster hand held on a crisis suit be IDENTICAL to a giant CIB on my tiger-shark AX-1..

Am I going crazy or anyone else agree?

pilky
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 331

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2097 » Feb 11 2018 08:37

Temennigru wrote:
pilky wrote:I'd have to heavily disagree. Markerlights are as core to Tau as an army as fire warriors and crisis suits. Visually we may be defined by our suits, but gameplay wise we have ALWAYS been defined by our markerlights. They are the one thing we have that no other army has: A way to buff our units army-wide. Honestly you could fix 90% of the problems with our current index army list by fixing the markerlight table. If you reverted markerlights to the old system we'd find pretty much every unit usable and justifiable in taking.

If you don’t want to take them then that's fine, you get more points for non markerlight units, as has always been the case. It was perfectly doable pre-8th, and a 4+ BS never hurt us then

We have always had JSJ as well and that was removed.
And markerlights are not an army-wide buff. They are a buff against a single enemy unit, rather than to everyone in an area.
The difference is area buffs don’t need a dice roll to work, so markerlights are arguably worse than effortless area buffs.
And markerlights don’t make any sense. In the fluff, we have never needed someone pointing a laser at the enemy to shoot just as well as space marines.


JSJ was just for a subset of our army and available to several other armies. It also has an analogue in 8th with Fly. And Markerlights are an army wide buff as anything in the army can use them. Even more so in 8th given they aren't spent as in previous editions. Yes each markerlight is against a single target, but they have an “aura” of “the whole board”. It means you can split things off, with static markerlights and mobile users of them, rather than having to cluster in groups that move together to get a 6” area buff.

And if you don’t believe markerlights make sense, I suggest you read more fluff. Tau have rather mediocre eyesight compared to other species, and so make extensive use of technology to counter that. They also make extensive use of advanced AI and computerised support systems, which markerlights enhance by providing actuate range and positioning information. This is why rules-wise markerlights have traditionally buffed BS, reduced cover, and allowed seeker missiles to fire. It's also how we are able to shoot as accurately as the genetically enhanced super soldiers that are the space marines.

They are a core part of our fluff and our rules. Orks have mob rule/waaagh, Nids have synapse, Necrons have reanimation protocols, Tau have markerlights. Without them we're just a copy of another army but with different looking models.

User avatar
Temennigru
Shas'Saal
Posts: 359

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2098 » Feb 11 2018 08:49

Since when does poor eyesight equate to poor shooting? Especially when you have advanced optics. There are plenty of snipers in the military who wear glasses, and plenty of tank crews who wear glasses and they have a nearly 100% hit rate.
And I don’t know where people got that tau have bad eyesight. I couldn’t find that anywhere in the lore. As a matter of fact, the lore states that the air caste has BETTER eyesight than a human yet they still hit on a 4+.
And JSJ was a core mechanic of our army. No other army had it as a core mechanic, and it was available to 90% of our units.
EDIT: from the wiki:
Tau vision is considered slightly superior to that of humans - their visual spectrum extends a little more into the ultraviolet and infrared wavelengths. However their pupils do not dilate, giving poorer depth perception and providing slower vision focusing reflexes than humans.
Last edited by Temennigru on Feb 11 2018 09:04, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Torch
Shas'Saal
Posts: 77

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2099 » Feb 11 2018 09:02

Here's what i found from the wiki:
"Tau vision is considered slightly superior to that of humans - their visual spectrum extends a little more into the ultraviolet and infrared wavelengths. However their pupils do not dilate, giving poorer depth perception and providing slower vision focusing reflexes than humans."

I don't actually know if and how that would affect aiming. As far as I know, pupil dilation only affects how much light enters the eye. The crystallin in the eye, however, is responsible for changing the focus point of vision and thus giving better depth perception. Plus, having two eyes already helps depth perception. So either GW goofed, or I just goofed.

Can anyone clarify?

User avatar
Temennigru
Shas'Saal
Posts: 359

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2100 » Feb 11 2018 09:07

Torch wrote:Here's what i found from the wiki:
"Tau vision is considered slightly superior to that of humans - their visual spectrum extends a little more into the ultraviolet and infrared wavelengths. However their pupils do not dilate, giving poorer depth perception and providing slower vision focusing reflexes than humans."

I don't actually know if and how that would affect aiming. As far as I know, pupil dilation only affects how much light enters the eye. The crystallin in the eye, however, is responsible for changing the focus point of vision and thus giving better depth perception. Plus, having two eyes already helps depth perception. So either GW goofed, or I just goofed.

Can anyone clarify?

I think that is their justification for tau being awful in melee. Their eyes can’t focus fast enough to fight in close combat. But again, that disadvantage should be negated by superior optics.
Likewise, a human can’t see in the dark, but they can use night vision goggles.

User avatar
Osocruel
Shas
Posts: 28

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2101 » Feb 11 2018 09:49

Should get +1 to hit rolls if not moved, eyes have time to adjust.
Increase in BS is always welcomed. :evil:

User avatar
Temennigru
Shas'Saal
Posts: 359

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2102 » Feb 11 2018 10:02

Osocruel wrote:Should get +1 to hit rolls if not moved, eyes have time to adjust.
Increase in BS is always welcomed. :evil:

That would go against everything the crisis suits stand for.
And tau physiology shouldn't matter that much since technically it is machines that are doing the work of aiming for them and seeing for them.
The same way, I thought it was stupid that space marines were subject to the effects of night fighting, since they have so many augments and wear a helmet with multi-spectrum sensors.

User avatar
PullsyJr
Shas
Posts: 21

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2103 » Feb 11 2018 10:07

Anyone who can make a stealth field small enough to fit on a man-sized portable frame (ie, Stealth Suits) would be able to develop and fit aiming software (dare I say... Targeting Arrays) into the same suit. Did I say software? Yes I did, because that's all it would be. It would take zero space (thus no hard point) and be simply part of the suit.

And going by fluff, one Marine should be able to wipe the floor with a whole contingent of just about anything. That doesn't happen. The background is so far removed from the tabletop that they may as well be two different universes.

User avatar
FoxZz
Shas
Posts: 43

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2104 » Feb 11 2018 10:22

shadowsong47 wrote:I just want our army to stop being so random. Nothing feels worse than landing a +4 (or +5 to hit) and then rolling low on D6 or constant 1's on D3 damage. Why do all our more powerful weapons hit so randomly. Cyclic goes from steady 3 to D3 for a grand whopping 1 str and D3 wounds. Why cant we get a static assault 3 and 2D. We suffer terribly from poor weapon output as it is.

Riptide is pretty egregious..

Overcharged - Heavy D6 STR 8 AP -3 D3 ... Random damage..

Nova Charged - STILL heavy D6 STR 9 Ap-3 3D .. Better damage but again RANDOM shots after forcing an automatic wound on the unit. If anything the riptide needs to be like its FW brothers at H 3D3.

Also we have way way wayyyyy too much STR 5 AP0 1D weaponry. Storm-surge im looking hard at you. Weapon profiles going into the codex need to be modified. We have too many placeholder profiles across separate variants of weapons.

Why in the hell should a missile pod be IDENTICAL to a HIGH YIELD missile pod? (sans the extra 2 shots). Why should a cyclic ion blaster hand held on a crisis suit be IDENTICAL to a giant CIB on my tiger-shark AX-1..

Am I going crazy or anyone else agree?


I agree very much, there is way too much randomness involved for an army that's supposed to be high-tech. Basically, all no overcharge and no blast effect Tau weaponnery should have a fixed output. Only weapons being able to overcharge should be cyclic and nova weapons. There is also too much random damage. Missile and Rail weapons should have fixed multi-dammage. Nova charge forcing a wound on the unit is also an annoying mechanic. Only random weapons should be Kroot weapons really.

High yield missile pod is basically a missile pod with a greater fire output than the regular missile pod (hence the high yield), but fires the same missiles as the regular missile pod, hence the same stats. One could argue that the increased firepower is not enough though.

I also find there is a lot of redundancy between FW weapons and Citadel ones. Some have the exact same stats : high-ouput burst cannon and double barrel burst cannon, yet have different names ... Others have almost the same stats but here again, not the same. This redundancy makes it harder to balance internally and is kind of confusing.

User avatar
Osocruel
Shas
Posts: 28

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2105 » Feb 11 2018 10:35

Temennigru wrote:
Osocruel wrote:Should get +1 to hit rolls if not moved, eyes have time to adjust.
Increase in BS is always welcomed. :evil:

That would go against everything the crisis suits stand for.
And tau physiology shouldn't matter that much since technically it is machines that are doing the work of aiming for them and seeing for them.
The same way, I thought it was stupid that space marines were subject to the effects of night fighting, since they have so many augments and wear a helmet with multi-spectrum sensors.


100% agree that the systems in suits should make up for that negative affect, I was referring to FW's to boost their 4+. However I do feel that a lot of talk on here wants to make Tau too OP.

I like how Markerlights work and with the Uplinked stratagem getting that 5 isn't to hard either. It does suck that it wipes out the rest of the squads shooting phase though as shots have already been declared, maybe something to fix that would be nice.

User avatar
Torch
Shas'Saal
Posts: 77

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2106 » Feb 11 2018 10:43

Temennigru wrote:
Torch wrote:Here's what i found from the wiki:
"Tau vision is considered slightly superior to that of humans - their visual spectrum extends a little more into the ultraviolet and infrared wavelengths. However their pupils do not dilate, giving poorer depth perception and providing slower vision focusing reflexes than humans."

I don't actually know if and how that would affect aiming. As far as I know, pupil dilation only affects how much light enters the eye. The crystallin in the eye, however, is responsible for changing the focus point of vision and thus giving better depth perception. Plus, having two eyes already helps depth perception. So either GW goofed, or I just goofed.

Can anyone clarify?

I think that is their justification for tau being awful in melee. Their eyes can’t focus fast enough to fight in close combat. But again, that disadvantage should be negated by superior optics.
Likewise, a human can’t see in the dark, but they can use night vision goggles.


Ultimately, the fluff doesn't really translate into rules. Aun'Shi has WS 2+ right? (double check that cause I don't use him at all) Which means that Tau could git gud with enough practice. And he doesn't even have optics and computers. Fireblades also have good BS, but they don't have battlesuit tech.
Meanwhile we have a century old Space Marine genetically engineered into a veritable goliath with power armor strong enough to stop tank shells... T4... 3+ Sv.... 1 W.... :?

So long story short, we have a wide margin to work in so long as it improves gameplay. And by we, I mean GW and not us at all.

pilky wrote:I'd have to heavily disagree. Markerlights are as core to Tau as an army as fire warriors and crisis suits. Visually we may be defined by our suits, but gameplay wise we have ALWAYS been defined by our markerlights. They are the one thing we have that no other army has: A way to buff our units army-wide. Honestly you could fix 90% of the problems with our current index army list by fixing the markerlight table. If you reverted markerlights to the old system we'd find pretty much every unit usable and justifiable in taking.

If you don’t want to take them then that's fine, you get more points for non markerlight units, as has always been the case. It was perfectly doable pre-8th, and a 4+ BS never hurt us then


I certainly don't intend to ruin your gaming experience with my suggestions so I am more than happy to keep the status quo.

But I've never thought of markerlights as the defining feature of Tau. It's a mix of things. We were always a highly maneuverable and durable force with powerful tech and a preference for ranged warfare, we are also not psychic (thank goodness too). We don't have super troopers either. We are essentially the near future version of real world armies. IG is the most comparable to us but they are based on WW1 and WW2 style warfare, they are cumbersome and crude but powerful and well rounded as well. Taking markerlights away would not change that any more than taking away IG orders. Those mechanics are gimmicks, they are not the identity. (not that gimmicks are bad in and of themselves) We would still play differently.

When I first got into Tau way back, markerlights were a side note to me, they didn't define the army. Granted, I didn't play all that much then but still.

Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests