Upcoming T'au Codex

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Nymphomanius
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#379 » Sep 26 2017 03:10

QimRas wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
8 plasma guns if they are close range is 16 shots 11 hits 9 wounds, if they overcharge you would need 7 drones to tank all the wounds as would get no save.

Or even your normal Commander usually has 2 drones if 100 conscripts shoot at long range it'll still be 33 hits 11 wounds usually 3-4 failed saves strips your drones and does a wound or 2.

The amount of rapid fire weapons guard can muster will make them top character snipers even with drones


Lets not blow this out of proportion. First of all, Veterans are only capable of carrying up to 3 Plasma Guns. Special Weapons teams are also only capable of 3 special weapons. Command Squads are capable of taking 4, but are limited to 1 per Officer.

So the worst case scenario is the Command Squad. They are BS 3+ so hit 66% of the time with 2 shots each. So 5.28 rounding up to 6 because we are talking worst case. Cadre Fireblades are T3, so wounding on 2s so 83% comes out to 5 wounds. Bounce them all to drones, drones get a 5+ Shield Gen save, so that means 33% get bounced. So after that 3.3 are not saved, so 4. 4 popped Shield Drones. I am not worried about 4 popped drones, especially when they could have done the same thing with First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire into my Fire Warriors. Either way, they are only killing drones, and not reducing my killing capacity in the slightest.

Is it a nice tactical order. Yes. Is it something I wish we had. Yes! Do I think it will see use. Yes. But remember it shares a limited pool of available Orders per turn with some other very impressive Orders. Its a nice tool to put in their toolbox, and it will win or lose some games, but it does not sound like it is excessive or game breaking.


Sorry I write guard lists all day (I write 3-10 lists for various armies a day, I have issues :D)

For the above example you take 2 commanders which still cost less than 8 fire warriors for both, send one off with veterans / heavy weapons / conscripts etc...

Chuck the other in a chimera witg his and his buddy's command squad and he gets 2 orders a turn so can order each squad when they all jump out.

First turn chimera bolts forward 12+D6" and pops smoke, next turn another 8-12" depending on remaining wounds and double heavy Flamer whatever infantry unit it wants turned into toast and the 2 command squads have crossed 19-25" of board to be within 12" of their HQ of choice to shove 16 bolts of super heated plasma Into.

Again it's not without flaws but will hurt most armies, maybe us not so much put a SM or CSM HQ will be bricking it as will be overcharged as unlikely to get a second round even papa surf will struggle to shrug that off

Edit - I do agree it's not gamebreaking I said I think it will catch some people by surprise more than anything

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QimRas
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#380 » Sep 26 2017 03:21

Nymphomanius wrote:Sorry I write guard lists all day (I write 3-10 lists for various armies a day, I have issues :D)

For the above example you take 2 commanders which still cost less than 8 fire warriors for both, send one off with veterans / heavy weapons / conscripts etc...

Chuck the other in a chimera witg his and his buddy's command squad and he gets 2 orders a turn so can order each squad when they all jump out.

First turn chimera bolts forward 12+D6" and pops smoke, next turn another 8-12" depending on remaining wounds and double heavy Flamer whatever infantry unit it wants turned into toast and the 2 command squads have crossed 19-25" of board to be within 12" of their HQ of choice to shove 16 bolts of super heated plasma Into.

Again it's not without flaws but will hurt most armies, maybe us not so much put a SM or CSM HQ will be bricking it as will be overcharged as unlikely to get a second round even papa surf will struggle to shrug that off

Edit - I do agree it's not gamebreaking I said I think it will catch some people by surprise more than anything


Ok, yeah that is a pretty solid tactic to get some serious heat in range. I guess I dismiss it because of the number of Shield Drones I tend to field. In my last game I fielded 24 Shield Drones that all hung out near my core infantry force. So losing 4 drones here and there is kinda like.... Meh.

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nic
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#381 » Sep 26 2017 03:35

QimRas wrote:
Lets not blow this out of proportion. First of all, Veterans are only capable of carrying up to 3 Plasma Guns. Special Weapons teams are also only capable of 3 special weapons. Command Squads are capable of taking 4, but are limited to 1 per Officer.

So the worst case scenario is the Command Squad. They are BS 3+ so hit 66% of the time with 2 shots each. So 5.28 rounding up to 6 because we are talking worst case. Cadre Fireblades are T3, so wounding on 2s so 83% comes out to 5 wounds. Bounce them all to drones, drones get a 5+ Shield Gen save, so that means 33% get bounced. So after that 3.3 are not saved, so 4. 4 popped Shield Drones. I am not worried about 4 popped drones, especially when they could have done the same thing with First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire into my Fire Warriors. Either way, they are only killing drones, and not reducing my killing capacity in the slightest.

Is it a nice tactical order. Yes. Is it something I wish we had. Yes! Do I think it will see use. Yes. But remember it shares a limited pool of available Orders per turn with some other very impressive Orders. Its a nice tool to put in their toolbox, and it will win or lose some games, but it does not sound like it is excessive or game breaking.


Without really being much of a change to the threat environment for Tau this one thing makes some of the other character-spam builds much less attractive. If this sort of high quality massed sniper fire exists then those smite flingers are not quite so immune to harm hiding behind a screen. So long as Malefic Lords are a thing I expect to see Mordian detachments as a reasonably common feature of competitive AM list building because they solve a troubling problem well.

Tau on the other hand can see Mordians on the table and keep their drones close to their characters.

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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#382 » Sep 26 2017 03:39

Yeah if I was playing against Tau I'd target all the shield drones with mortars first, if anything needs a point increase its AM heavy weapons teams for less cost than 1 RR Pathfinder you can get3 mortar teams hitting 3D6 Str 4 hits out of LOS within 48"!!

Not a massive amount of damage but use it to whittle the drones down first especially if you have units of 2 supporting squads each team of 3 mortars should easily drop 2 drones a turn even when they get 4++/5+++

Nymphomanius
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#383 » Sep 26 2017 03:41

Well let's see what other regiments get first before jumping to conclusions :D :D :D

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QimRas
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#384 » Sep 26 2017 04:42

Nymphomanius wrote:Yeah if I was playing against Tau I'd target all the shield drones with mortars first, if anything needs a point increase its AM heavy weapons teams for less cost than 1 RR Pathfinder you can get3 mortar teams hitting 3D6 Str 4 hits out of LOS within 48"!!

Not a massive amount of damage but use it to whittle the drones down first especially if you have units of 2 supporting squads each team of 3 mortars should easily drop 2 drones a turn even when they get 4++/5+++


Whittle them down they may, but waste shots they are likely to as well. When enemies start targeting my Shields I just love to ask "Which pair?". They look at the blob of them and its like their brain just locks up.

Honestly, the smarter thing is just to target the things the Shields are protecting. You end up with more Shield kills that way, and don't have to worry about Over or Underkill.

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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#385 » Sep 26 2017 05:45

Again depends on what the drones are guarding especially the drones around a Commander / ghostkeels / Riptide much easier to wound than what they are guarding

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QimRas
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#386 » Sep 27 2017 01:23

The Vostroyan article has some nice info in it.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/201 ... ge-post-2/

Looks like they get an order that lets them shoot any weapon in the shooting phase as if they are pistols.

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Panzer
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#387 » Sep 27 2017 01:29

Nymphomanius wrote:Again depends on what the drones are guarding especially the drones around a Commander / ghostkeels / Riptide much easier to wound than what they are guarding

Yeah but if you shoot the Drones directly they'll have a 4++ AND a 5+++ instead of just their 5+++. So basically unless you can double the amount of wounds by shooting at the Drones directly, it's not a good option.

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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#388 » Sep 27 2017 02:12

Panzer wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:Again depends on what the drones are guarding especially the drones around a Commander / ghostkeels / Riptide much easier to wound than what they are guarding

Yeah but if you shoot the Drones directly they'll have a 4++ AND a 5+++ instead of just their 5+++. So basically unless you can double the amount of wounds by shooting at the Drones directly, it's not a good option.

We shouldn't be in CC really anyway but if we get something like that would be nice,

Though if 50 conscripts are in CC no amount of saves will help vs 100 lasgun rounds :D

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Panzer
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#389 » Sep 27 2017 02:15

Nymphomanius wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:Again depends on what the drones are guarding especially the drones around a Commander / ghostkeels / Riptide much easier to wound than what they are guarding

Yeah but if you shoot the Drones directly they'll have a 4++ AND a 5+++ instead of just their 5+++. So basically unless you can double the amount of wounds by shooting at the Drones directly, it's not a good option.

We shouldn't be in CC really anyway but if we get something like that would be nice,

Though if 50 conscripts are in CC no amount of saves will help vs 100 lasgun rounds :D

Wrong quote, mate. :D

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QimRas
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#390 » Sep 27 2017 02:17

Nymphomanius wrote:We shouldn't be in CC really anyway but if we get something like that would be nice,

Though if 50 conscripts are in CC no amount of saves will help vs 100 lasgun rounds :D


I think you quoted the wrong thing. Still, as an order it allows for some tactical flexibility. That is one thing I really like about AMs Order mechanic that I think really should spread to the whole game, not just AM.

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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#391 » Sep 27 2017 09:23

Panzer wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
Panzer wrote:Yeah but if you shoot the Drones directly they'll have a 4++ AND a 5+++ instead of just their 5+++. So basically unless you can double the amount of wounds by shooting at the Drones directly, it's not a good option.

We shouldn't be in CC really anyway but if we get something like that would be nice,

Though if 50 conscripts are in CC no amount of saves will help vs 100 lasgun rounds :D

Wrong quote, mate. :D

I got over excited :D

But to answer your comment that's not really true, a shield drone gets the 5+ save after a model fails to stop a wound roll so if you were firing at str4 ap 0 then to wound a crisis suit you need 5+ with a 3+ save so 1/9 gets through.

However target the shield drones directly and it's 4+ to wound 4+ save a much better 1/4 hits gets through

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Panzer
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#392 » Sep 28 2017 12:59

Nymphomanius wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:We shouldn't be in CC really anyway but if we get something like that would be nice,

Though if 50 conscripts are in CC no amount of saves will help vs 100 lasgun rounds :D

Wrong quote, mate. :D

I got over excited :D

But to answer your comment that's not really true, a shield drone gets the 5+ save after a model fails to stop a wound roll so if you were firing at str4 ap 0 then to wound a crisis suit you need 5+ with a 3+ save so 1/9 gets through.

However target the shield drones directly and it's 4+ to wound 4+ save a much better 1/4 hits gets through

What exactly is not true there? I never said that Drones aren't easier to wound. I said their 4++ means that they basically half the wounds that come through before you have to use your 5+++ which is true no matter how you look at it.
Crisis don't get their 3+ save if if you plan to use the Saviour Protocol which was the premise since it was about how quick Drones can get killed...especially once one of the suits is down to 1 wound you'd start using the Saviour Protocol anyway.

So you have to consider whether the difference between the two options is worth it: either shoot at the Drones who are easier to wound but only half of those wounds actually get through before the FnP save or shoot at the Crisis who are harder to wound but with only the FnP save available for the Drones.

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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#393 » Sep 28 2017 02:42

Panzer wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
Panzer wrote:Wrong quote, mate. :D

I got over excited :D

But to answer your comment that's not really true, a shield drone gets the 5+ save after a model fails to stop a wound roll so if you were firing at str4 ap 0 then to wound a crisis suit you need 5+ with a 3+ save so 1/9 gets through.

However target the shield drones directly and it's 4+ to wound 4+ save a much better 1/4 hits gets through

What exactly is not true there? I never said that Drones aren't easier to wound. I said their 4++ means that they basically half the wounds that come through before you have to use your 5+++ which is true no matter how you look at it.
Crisis don't get their 3+ save if if you plan to use the Saviour Protocol which was the premise since it was about how quick Drones can get killed...especially once one of the suits is down to 1 wound you'd start using the Saviour Protocol anyway.

So you have to consider whether the difference between the two options is worth it: either shoot at the Drones who are easier to wound but only half of those wounds actually get through before the FnP save or shoot at the Crisis who are harder to wound but with only the FnP save available for the Drones.


Because you said unless you can cause twice as many wounds vs the drones it's not worth it.

And I said that str4 ap0 weapons (the type of weapons you should be using to kill drones with) will cause a wound vs drones 25% of the time but only 11% of the time vs a crisis suit.

So if I was trying to kill the crisis suits I would be better off targeting the drones with low Str low ap weapons first to kill them off then using high Str high ap to kill the crisis suits after the drones were dead.

In the same example if you fired an autocannon at the crisis suits the odds are identical 3+ to wound 4+ save so might aswel target crisis suits.

Militarum tempestus hotshot lasgun however is better off targeting the crisis suits as needs 5+ to wound either but shield drones would get their 4+ save vs a 5+ for the crisis suits.

So you do have to be careful what you aim at the Drones directly and it's too much mathhammer for some people to care about.

Vs firewarriors it's always better to just shoot the firewarrior instead.

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Haechi
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#394 » Sep 28 2017 07:05

I have inside info for the next codexes up to february... And T'au isn't in it =/

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Panzer
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#395 » Sep 28 2017 07:13

I don't know you or your sources so I'll take it with a big cup of salt. That being said I wasn't expecting our Codex till February anyway. :D

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Glarblar
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#396 » Sep 28 2017 08:55

Haechi wrote:I have inside info for the next codexes up to february... And T'au isn't in it =/


Yup, my own 'prediction' puts our codex as one of the last 3. Preorder would be between April 14 and May 15

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