Upcoming T'au Codex

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Ricordis
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#865 » Dec 02 2017 11:15

Lord Mayhem wrote:Sorry, but I can't follow your reasoning.


Many people were hoping for a revamp of the current markerlight table.
But instead GW puts out a stratagem to enforce the current table. I don't think they would introduce this stratagem and also rewrite the table or lower the hurdles to get the most wanted +1 BS buff.

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Lord Mayhem
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#866 » Dec 03 2017 01:00

Ricordis wrote:
Lord Mayhem wrote:Sorry, but I can't follow your reasoning.


Many people were hoping for a revamp of the current markerlight table.
But instead GW puts out a stratagem to enforce the current table. I don't think they would introduce this stratagem and also rewrite the table or lower the hurdles to get the most wanted +1 BS buff.


But the problem with your line of reasoning is that the stratagem does not enforce the current table, it just gives you more marker light hits, no more, no less.
Since more marker lights have always better the mechanism to turn marker lights into benefits/buffs is completely independent of the stratagem; Return marker lights to the old system? Stratagem still works. Change the table entirely? Stratagem still works. As I pointed out, the same extra marker light buff was available in 7th Ed before they introduced the table, so its clearly not a direct connection

Since making a single target easier to hit with +1 BS would be an obvious way to improve the balance of Tau, without going overboard on shooty-ness, It is entirely conceivable they will revise the table even after introducing the stratagem.

armisael
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#867 » Dec 03 2017 02:44

Ricordis wrote:
Lord Mayhem wrote:Sorry, but I can't follow your reasoning.


Many people were hoping for a revamp of the current markerlight table.
But instead GW puts out a stratagem to enforce the current table. I don't think they would introduce this stratagem and also rewrite the table or lower the hurdles to get the most wanted +1 BS buff.


So we have to pay 1 cp to be par with other shooting army. lol

all of eldar is bs3+ and they can easily get re-roll all fail wound roll by their phychic.

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Arka0415
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#868 » Dec 03 2017 03:41

armisael wrote:So we have to pay 1 cp to be par with other shooting army. lol

all of eldar is bs3+ and they can easily get re-roll all fail wound roll by their phychic.

You're not wrong, that's for sure. However, BS4+ has always been our cross to bear, I guess.

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#869 » Dec 03 2017 04:47

armisael wrote:
Ricordis wrote:
Lord Mayhem wrote:Sorry, but I can't follow your reasoning.


Many people were hoping for a revamp of the current markerlight table.
But instead GW puts out a stratagem to enforce the current table. I don't think they would introduce this stratagem and also rewrite the table or lower the hurdles to get the most wanted +1 BS buff.


So we have to pay 1 cp to be par with other shooting army. lol

all of eldar is bs3+ and they can easily get re-roll all fail wound roll by their phychic.


T'au weapons are generally stronger than every other faction though. That's the trade off.

For giggles you should play a game where all your troops are BS3 and see how you do.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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Arka0415
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#870 » Dec 03 2017 05:12

AnonAmbientLight wrote:T'au weapons are generally stronger than every other faction though. That's the trade off.

For giggles you should play a game where all your troops are BS3 and see how you do.

That's the thing that might have changed though. The thing that stands out for us is Pulse weapons, which provide a meaningful bonus (compared to Bolters) against T4 and T8, and Fusion weapons, which have additonal range (compared to Melta weapons).

Other than that, our Plasma weapons are inferior, our long-range S8-S10 shooting options are inferior, we don't have reusable missiles, and due to our infantry squads not being able to take heavy weapons, it's hard for us to field non-S5 without paying 40-80 points (at least) for the platform.

I'm very positive about the state of the Tau in 8th Edition, but our weapons aren't stronger than other factions'. Rather, our strength in 8th Edition comes from mobility (8"+ move on many models), durability (Drones and Battlesuits are very tough), and alpha strike capability (Manta Strike).

Nymphomanius
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#871 » Dec 03 2017 06:18

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
armisael wrote:
Ricordis wrote:
Many people were hoping for a revamp of the current markerlight table.
But instead GW puts out a stratagem to enforce the current table. I don't think they would introduce this stratagem and also rewrite the table or lower the hurdles to get the most wanted +1 BS buff.


So we have to pay 1 cp to be par with other shooting army. lol

all of eldar is bs3+ and they can easily get re-roll all fail wound roll by their phychic.


T'au weapons are generally stronger than every other faction though. That's the trade off.

For giggles you should play a game where all your troops are BS3 and see how you do.


In 7th though apart from Markerlights and a handful of situations I never hit on 4+ because 1 markerlight was enough for 3+ to hit and with combined fire 1 markerlight would do 3 squads.

And most of the time my crisis suits hit on 2's as did broadsides.

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leo1925
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#872 » Dec 03 2017 07:00

Nymphomanius wrote:
AnonAmbientLight wrote:
armisael wrote:
So we have to pay 1 cp to be par with other shooting army. lol

all of eldar is bs3+ and they can easily get re-roll all fail wound roll by their phychic.


T'au weapons are generally stronger than every other faction though. That's the trade off.

For giggles you should play a game where all your troops are BS3 and see how you do.


In 7th though apart from Markerlights and a handful of situations I never hit on 4+ because 1 markerlight was enough for 3+ to hit and with combined fire 1 markerlight would do 3 squads.

And most of the time my crisis suits hit on 2's as did broadsides.


3 squads firing with coordinated fire and one marker light meant shooting at BS 5 (current BS 2). Hunter Cadre was very powerful.

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Czar Ziggy
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#873 » Dec 03 2017 01:49

I think it's also a logical progression to believe that one of our strategems will be something like coordinated fire power where 3+ units must fire everything at the same target but receive something like +1 to hit. That would make it easier to get up to essentially 2+ to hit.

Czar Ziggy

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leo1925
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#874 » Dec 03 2017 04:56

Czar Ziggy wrote:I think it's also a logical progression to believe that one of our strategems will be something like coordinated fire power where 3+ units must fire everything at the same target but receive something like +1 to hit. That would make it easier to get up to essentially 2+ to hit.

Czar Ziggy


Maybe, also we might gain the AM overlapping fields of fire as a generic tau stratagem.

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DominayTrix
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#875 » Dec 04 2017 02:10

Arka0415 wrote:
AnonAmbientLight wrote:T'au weapons are generally stronger than every other faction though. That's the trade off.

For giggles you should play a game where all your troops are BS3 and see how you do.

That's the thing that might have changed though. The thing that stands out for us is Pulse weapons, which provide a meaningful bonus (compared to Bolters) against T4 and T8, and Fusion weapons, which have additonal range (compared to Melta weapons).

Other than that, our Plasma weapons are inferior, our long-range S8-S10 shooting options are inferior, we don't have reusable missiles, and due to our infantry squads not being able to take heavy weapons, it's hard for us to field non-S5 without paying 40-80 points (at least) for the platform.

I'm very positive about the state of the Tau in 8th Edition, but our weapons aren't stronger than other factions'. Rather, our strength in 8th Edition comes from mobility (8"+ move on many models), durability (Drones and Battlesuits are very tough), and alpha strike capability (Manta Strike).


This. Even our pulse weapons which are still quite good lost all of their AP. A successfully wounded GEQ is way less lethal than it used to be. Drones are pretty bad at shooting even with their high volume of fire and cadre fireblades/drone controllers. Its their T4, high mobility, and ability to Savior Protocols that makes them one of our best units.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#876 » Dec 04 2017 03:46

DominayTrix wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:
AnonAmbientLight wrote:T'au weapons are generally stronger than every other faction though. That's the trade off.

For giggles you should play a game where all your troops are BS3 and see how you do.

That's the thing that might have changed though. The thing that stands out for us is Pulse weapons, which provide a meaningful bonus (compared to Bolters) against T4 and T8, and Fusion weapons, which have additonal range (compared to Melta weapons).

Other than that, our Plasma weapons are inferior, our long-range S8-S10 shooting options are inferior, we don't have reusable missiles, and due to our infantry squads not being able to take heavy weapons, it's hard for us to field non-S5 without paying 40-80 points (at least) for the platform.

I'm very positive about the state of the Tau in 8th Edition, but our weapons aren't stronger than other factions'. Rather, our strength in 8th Edition comes from mobility (8"+ move on many models), durability (Drones and Battlesuits are very tough), and alpha strike capability (Manta Strike).


This. Even our pulse weapons which are still quite good lost all of their AP. A successfully wounded GEQ is way less lethal than it used to be. Drones are pretty bad at shooting even with their high volume of fire and cadre fireblades/drone controllers. Its their T4, high mobility, and ability to Savior Protocols that makes them one of our best units.


Actually no point for point drones put out serious hurt and I seriously expect a points boost in the codex.

At 18" 10 gun drones vs 20 guardsmen they will do 5.7 wounds on average without a fireblade or DC or even a markerlight which atleast 1 or 2 would be present.

The guardsmen would do 1.7 wounds in return. Even at close range with FRFSRF it's only 3.4 wounds whereas with a fireblade and 1 markerlight the drones do 10.7 wounds and they are the same points (T'au are 12 more expensive with fireblade vs company Commander)

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DominayTrix
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#877 » Dec 04 2017 05:24

Nymphomanius wrote:
DominayTrix wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:That's the thing that might have changed though. The thing that stands out for us is Pulse weapons, which provide a meaningful bonus (compared to Bolters) against T4 and T8, and Fusion weapons, which have additonal range (compared to Melta weapons).

Other than that, our Plasma weapons are inferior, our long-range S8-S10 shooting options are inferior, we don't have reusable missiles, and due to our infantry squads not being able to take heavy weapons, it's hard for us to field non-S5 without paying 40-80 points (at least) for the platform.

I'm very positive about the state of the Tau in 8th Edition, but our weapons aren't stronger than other factions'. Rather, our strength in 8th Edition comes from mobility (8"+ move on many models), durability (Drones and Battlesuits are very tough), and alpha strike capability (Manta Strike).


This. Even our pulse weapons which are still quite good lost all of their AP. A successfully wounded GEQ is way less lethal than it used to be. Drones are pretty bad at shooting even with their high volume of fire and cadre fireblades/drone controllers. Its their T4, high mobility, and ability to Savior Protocols that makes them one of our best units.


Actually no point for point drones put out serious hurt and I seriously expect a points boost in the codex.

At 18" 10 gun drones vs 20 guardsmen they will do 5.7 wounds on average without a fireblade or DC or even a markerlight which atleast 1 or 2 would be present.

The guardsmen would do 1.7 wounds in return. Even at close range with FRFSRF it's only 3.4 wounds whereas with a fireblade and 1 markerlight the drones do 10.7 wounds and they are the same points (T'au are 12 more expensive with fireblade vs company Commander)

Oh I agree in ideal conditions they can really put the hurt out on T4 and below models. Most of my problems with gundrones are how easy it is to disable/cripple them with hit modifiers or making them shoot at less than ideal targets. The problem with your math hammer is the guardsmen are shooting at T4 4+ save models, while the drones are shooting at T3 5+ save models. With FRFSRF the guardsmen do ~6/~12 wounds to T3 5+ save units so the real big difference is that the drones are more durable and their shooting can more easily wound T4+ models.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#878 » Dec 04 2017 05:33

DominayTrix wrote: Drones are pretty bad at shooting even with their high volume of fire and cadre fireblades/drone controllers.


It was that I took issues with. I'm not saying that your wrong about how good their maneuverability and survivability is but I wouldn't say that they are bad at shooting. A drone controller puts them on par with most other units we have interms of accuracy only with double the shots compared to a firewarrior / Pathfinder and when you consider how grossly overpriced the burst cannon is fir the same firepower a drone is basically -2pts :D

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Beerson
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#879 » Dec 04 2017 06:12

Nymphomanius wrote:
DominayTrix wrote: Drones are pretty bad at shooting even with their high volume of fire and cadre fireblades/drone controllers.


It was that I took issues with. I'm not saying that your wrong about how good their maneuverability and survivability is but I wouldn't say that they are bad at shooting. A drone controller puts them on par with most other units we have interms of accuracy only with double the shots compared to a firewarrior / Pathfinder and when you consider how grossly overpriced the burst cannon is fir the same firepower a drone is basically -2pts :D

I don't think comparing drones to burst cannons proves some point as we all know burst cannons are terrible for their price and bad even when you discount the price

Nymphomanius
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#880 » Dec 05 2017 02:44

Beerson wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
DominayTrix wrote: Drones are pretty bad at shooting even with their high volume of fire and cadre fireblades/drone controllers.


It was that I took issues with. I'm not saying that your wrong about how good their maneuverability and survivability is but I wouldn't say that they are bad at shooting. A drone controller puts them on par with most other units we have interms of accuracy only with double the shots compared to a firewarrior / Pathfinder and when you consider how grossly overpriced the burst cannon is fir the same firepower a drone is basically -2pts :D

I don't think comparing drones to burst cannons proves some point as we all know burst cannons are terrible for their price and bad even when you discount the price


I didn't I compared a drone to the shooting of our regular troops then said the burst cannon is so grossly overpriced that makes the drones so cheap you're basically getting 2 pts back taking a drone.

Again the point I'm making is drones don't have bad shooting and whilst saviour Protocol is awesome it's not the only good thing about gun drones, atleast until our codex drops and they go up 50% or something

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Raikoh067
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#881 » Dec 05 2017 06:37

Arka0415 wrote:
AnonAmbientLight wrote:T'au weapons are generally stronger than every other faction though. That's the trade off.

For giggles you should play a game where all your troops are BS3 and see how you do.

That's the thing that might have changed though. The thing that stands out for us is Pulse weapons, which provide a meaningful bonus (compared to Bolters) against T4 and T8, and Fusion weapons, which have additonal range (compared to Melta weapons).

Other than that, our Plasma weapons are inferior, our long-range S8-S10 shooting options are inferior, we don't have reusable missiles, and due to our infantry squads not being able to take heavy weapons, it's hard for us to field non-S5 without paying 40-80 points (at least) for the platform.

I'm very positive about the state of the Tau in 8th Edition, but our weapons aren't stronger than other factions'. Rather, our strength in 8th Edition comes from mobility (8"+ move on many models), durability (Drones and Battlesuits are very tough), and alpha strike capability (Manta Strike).


I agree with Arka 100%. I've been playing a lot of games as Tau for many years. And this edition is one of the first times where I have often noticed weapons from other armies outshine our own. It's a lot of subtle changes, like the AP5 to AP-0, or even the cost of weapons that are equal or worse than other armies, like the missile pod, or plasma rifle. The plasma rifle is actually a good example of all this. While other armies have new interesting rules for their weapons, we get overshadowed(an exception to that is maybe the Rail Gun). Our plasma used to be better because it doesn't have gets hot, and the difference between S7 and S6 usually isn't that big of a deal, still wounds most units the same. But now ALL plasma doesn't get hot, and they can even overcharge it to S8 to hit vehicles hard, and with the reroll of 1s being so common, it's not a big deal that mode has bad 1s. Can't we at least overcharge ours to S7?
The plasma rant is just an example of how the Tau weaponry is just being left in the dust, surpassed by everyone else's new shinies.

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boomwolf
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#882 » Dec 05 2017 11:46

It just feels like whoever made the rules didn't even bother with tau honestly.

We didn't get our guns updated beyond the pure mandatory minimum, keeping profiles identical or making the most lazy ports ever without thinking about the effects it might have.

the fact our wargear overlaps so much with markerlights, AND with HQ abilities makes it even more clear that nobody even tried. especially given how the heavy battlesuits just went belly-up with erasing the "jet pack" rules...

We need a major rework, not just an overhaul.

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