Upcoming T'au Codex

Use this area for all discussions of the "gaming" aspect of 40K/Tau.
Folklore
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#883 » Dec 05 2017 12:20

boomwolf wrote:It just feels like whoever made the rules didn't even bother with tau honestly.

We didn't get our guns updated beyond the pure mandatory minimum, keeping profiles identical or making the most lazy ports ever without thinking about the effects it might have.

the fact our wargear overlaps so much with markerlights, AND with HQ abilities makes it even more clear that nobody even tried. especially given how the heavy battlesuits just went belly-up with erasing the "jet pack" rules...

We need a major rework, not just an overhaul.


I couldn't agree more. I think that is why im so heart broken about Chapter Approved. I knew it wasn't going to fix everything but I expected it to acknowledge the fact that our index entry is some of the worst rules design in this edition. (except for savior protocols) Instead we got ZERO solutions, a bit more redundancy and im left with the impression that they just don't care.

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namegiver
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#884 » Dec 05 2017 12:35

Be careful jumping to conclusions based on what was, or wasn't, included in CA. The Tau codex is almost certainly written at this point, and probably at the printer. It wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that edits were still happening to CA after the Tau Codex was finished.

Game books are usually locked to a certain page count in the early stages of development, so any pages assigned to one area of content deduct from another. It's a zero-sum game. Given that, it wouldn't make sense for GW to assign anything beyond the bare minimum page count to Tau (or any other Index army) updates since the entirety of the new rules were clearly on the way -- by doing so, they'd reduce the room for content that'd 'live on' after the codexes release.

The Tau codex will be awesome. We just need to be patient, and wring everything we can out of the rules we have for now.

Folklore
Shas
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#885 » Dec 05 2017 03:34

I'm glad to know there is someone left who believes in the greater good!

pilky
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#886 » Dec 05 2017 05:09

boomwolf wrote:It just feels like whoever made the rules didn't even bother with tau honestly.

We didn't get our guns updated beyond the pure mandatory minimum, keeping profiles identical or making the most lazy ports ever without thinking about the effects it might have.

the fact our wargear overlaps so much with markerlights, AND with HQ abilities makes it even more clear that nobody even tried. especially given how the heavy battlesuits just went belly-up with erasing the "jet pack" rules...

We need a major rework, not just an overhaul.


From what I understand it was less “not bothering” and more a case of trying to re-balance all the rules and points in the indexes. No matter how much testing they do they weren’t going to get it right, and they often were too conservative (see the riptide). Thankfully they seem to be recognising the areas they've gone wrong and fixing/improving them. Chapter Approved is a great example, but codexes like Tyranids (and I'm hearing also Daemons in January) show how they're changing some fundamentals of armies now, to help them both have more flavour and be more robust and balanced. This gives me hope for our Codex, and for the future of 8th in general

zawyvern
Shas'Saal
Posts: 32

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#887 » Dec 05 2017 10:52

namegiver wrote:Be careful jumping to conclusions based on what was, or wasn't, included in CA.


Agreed. Don't count your chickens...

namegiver wrote:The Tau codex will be awesome. We just need to be patient, and wring everything we can out of the rules we have for now.


I think everything has been wrung. That's why people are looking at possibilities. It keeps up hope.

For example, many posters are mentioning the plasma rifle. There's such an obvious fix (imo). Just change it to assault from rapid fire, so it's like every other weapon for regular suits. Assault 2 keeps it effective at range and is a relatively cheap option. It doesn't make the weapon an auto include but makes it more useable. Like after an assault move. Ever since losing JSJ it's been hard to justify using the weapon as it is.

Speaking of JSJ, since they axed it, to make up for it one thing they should focus more on is denying charges or making them less effective. I can see that's what they were aiming at originally but the execution wasn't so good.
Like reducing charge distances, e.g. XV9 or drone's ability.... or minuses to hit... i.e. photon grenades.
If they were able to make a reliable way to reduce the damage of the 1st round of combat it would give suits the ability to get away with the fly keyword. A kind of "get-hit and run" ability.

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Yojimbob
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#888 » Dec 06 2017 10:54

zawyvern wrote:
namegiver wrote:Be careful jumping to conclusions based on what was, or wasn't, included in CA.


Agreed. Don't count your chickens...

namegiver wrote:The Tau codex will be awesome. We just need to be patient, and wring everything we can out of the rules we have for now.


I think everything has been wrung. That's why people are looking at possibilities. It keeps up hope.

For example, many posters are mentioning the plasma rifle. There's such an obvious fix (imo). Just change it to assault from rapid fire, so it's like every other weapon for regular suits. Assault 2 keeps it effective at range and is a relatively cheap option. It doesn't make the weapon an auto include but makes it more useable. Like after an assault move. Ever since losing JSJ it's been hard to justify using the weapon as it is.

Speaking of JSJ, since they axed it, to make up for it one thing they should focus more on is denying charges or making them less effective. I can see that's what they were aiming at originally but the execution wasn't so good.
Like reducing charge distances, e.g. XV9 or drone's ability.... or minuses to hit... i.e. photon grenades.
If they were able to make a reliable way to reduce the damage of the 1st round of combat it would give suits the ability to get away with the fly keyword. A kind of "get-hit and run" ability.


Definitely like the plasma change. I'm hoping we'll see the same type of stratagem as DA where they got an extra damage from plasma but it could be on any number of weapon types for us. Could be interesting. Definitely could use more "Don't charge me bruh" abilities for our army.

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QimRas
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#889 » Dec 06 2017 11:34

So... what is the issue with Jump Shoot Jump being gone? I started collecting T'au near the end of 7th, and never actually got a game in with them. I played against them as IG in 5th, but never played as them in 5th. I've played a few games of them in 8th, but I have never been suit heavy in my armies. So I understand a bit of the frustration playing against JSJ from 5th but not really why it is tactically necessary, especially in 8th.

So from my understanding, part of JSJ was to allow us to use short ranged weapons without getting locked in combat previously, because there were no real ways out in 5th, 6th, or 7th beyond vectored retrothrusters, which I think had some kind of downside? Was it a leadership check or something? For that component, having the FLY keyword basically means all our suits have vectored retrothrusters for free and without penalty, since we can leave combat at will and still shoot. We still take a charge, but with flamers and For The Greater Good, as well as being able to use Drones to accept a charge instead of the suits depending on how you deploy, this seems like less of an issue.

I understand there is also a mobility aspect in that it let you get two things, a little extra distance when you need to get somewhere, and a way to hide after shooting. For a little extra distance, how is this different from Advancing? Was there an advance previously where you could still shoot, I can't remember from 5th? As for a way to hide, other armies are getting this via strategem or special ability (Fire and Fade Strat for Craftworlds, Get Around Behind Them Tallarn Tank Order for Astra Militarum). Considering the rest, why would a strategem not be reasonable for this?

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Ghostly Daemon
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#890 » Dec 06 2017 11:42

QimRas wrote:So... what is the issue with Jump Shoot Jump being gone?


JSJ allowed us to move, shoot at something and then jump back either behind cover or out of line of sight. With short range weapons especially, that was a pretty critical thing.

QimRas wrote:Considering the rest, why would a strategem not be reasonable for this?


Mainly because you can only use a Strategem once per phase, meaning we could only do this with one unit. Say you have 2 groups of Crisis Suits on the field, or 2 Commanders or any other combination of suits - we'd only be able to JSJ with one of those groups.
:fear: :fear: :fear: :fear: :fear: :evil:

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QimRas
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#891 » Dec 06 2017 12:32

Ghostly Daemon wrote:
QimRas wrote:So... what is the issue with Jump Shoot Jump being gone?


JSJ allowed us to move, shoot at something and then jump back either behind cover or out of line of sight. With short range weapons especially, that was a pretty critical thing.


Not to be obtuse, but why is this critical in 8th? Most cover doesn't work unless you are Infantry, and being out of LOS may be beneficial to us, but doesn't exactly make for a fun game. From a purely tactical level, getting stuck in combat is a non-issue, and with both Manta Strike and primarily Assault weapons we don't really have major issues with getting where we need to go. Is it just the durability issue? Don't drones mitigate that issue significantly?

Ghostly Daemon wrote:
QimRas wrote:Considering the rest, why would a strategem not be reasonable for this?


Mainly because you can only use a Strategem once per phase, meaning we could only do this with one unit. Say you have 2 groups of Crisis Suits on the field, or 2 Commanders or any other combination of suits - we'd only be able to JSJ with one of those groups.


Ok, fair enough. In Matched Play that would be a significant limitation. Another random question would be how would you expect JSJ to work regarding Drones? Would they also get JSJ? Or would the suits leave them behind? If they can JSJ, what prevents them from doing it on their own? Wouldn't that exacerbate the issue with Gun Drones being so powerful?

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Yojimbob
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#892 » Dec 06 2017 01:16

Drones used to have it as well and like everything else just made our army more agile. We weren't very fast but we could make several moves a turn to help keep the enemy at bay. Now they seem to crash into us at an alarming pace and we can't seem to get away. At least this is better than just waiting for someone to punch us to death in CC.

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Draco023
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#893 » Dec 06 2017 02:16

QimRas wrote:
Ghostly Daemon wrote:
QimRas wrote:So... what is the issue with Jump Shoot Jump being gone?


JSJ allowed us to move, shoot at something and then jump back either behind cover or out of line of sight. With short range weapons especially, that was a pretty critical thing.


Not to be obtuse, but why is this critical in 8th? Most cover doesn't work unless you are Infantry, and being out of LOS may be beneficial to us, but doesn't exactly make for a fun game. From a purely tactical level, getting stuck in combat is a non-issue, and with both Manta Strike and primarily Assault weapons we don't really have major issues with getting where we need to go. Is it just the durability issue? Don't drones mitigate that issue significantly?

It wasn't just to get into cover, it was also to clear charge range by kitting. Move to just inside range ( usually 18" or 12 if you ran plasma) then jump back to a comparatively safe distance. Either making charges impossible or at least less likely. Much better to avoid HtoH on their terms than to take a charge, even if you can get back out. It can also keep you out of rapid fire range for a turn or two, again not critical, but only taking half the shots is always a win!

DancinHobo
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#894 » Dec 06 2017 05:00

Draco023 wrote:
QimRas wrote:
Ghostly Daemon wrote:
JSJ allowed us to move, shoot at something and then jump back either behind cover or out of line of sight. With short range weapons especially, that was a pretty critical thing.


Not to be obtuse, but why is this critical in 8th? Most cover doesn't work unless you are Infantry, and being out of LOS may be beneficial to us, but doesn't exactly make for a fun game. From a purely tactical level, getting stuck in combat is a non-issue, and with both Manta Strike and primarily Assault weapons we don't really have major issues with getting where we need to go. Is it just the durability issue? Don't drones mitigate that issue significantly?

It wasn't just to get into cover, it was also to clear charge range by kitting. Move to just inside range ( usually 18" or 12 if you ran plasma) then jump back to a comparatively safe distance. Either making charges impossible or at least less likely. Much better to avoid HtoH on their terms than to take a charge, even if you can get back out. It can also keep you out of rapid fire range for a turn or two, again not critical, but only taking half the shots is always a win!

Also Melta range is 9”. Getting inside Melta guarantees if we don’t kill the target we are getting charged now. I played a game against Nids not too long ago. Falling back is no where near what JSJ, considering we get tore up in combat.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#895 » Dec 06 2017 06:23

DancinHobo wrote:
Draco023 wrote:
QimRas wrote:
Not to be obtuse, but why is this critical in 8th? Most cover doesn't work unless you are Infantry, and being out of LOS may be beneficial to us, but doesn't exactly make for a fun game. From a purely tactical level, getting stuck in combat is a non-issue, and with both Manta Strike and primarily Assault weapons we don't really have major issues with getting where we need to go. Is it just the durability issue? Don't drones mitigate that issue significantly?

It wasn't just to get into cover, it was also to clear charge range by kitting. Move to just inside range ( usually 18" or 12 if you ran plasma) then jump back to a comparatively safe distance. Either making charges impossible or at least less likely. Much better to avoid HtoH on their terms than to take a charge, even if you can get back out. It can also keep you out of rapid fire range for a turn or two, again not critical, but only taking half the shots is always a win!

Also Melta range is 9”. Getting inside Melta guarantees if we don’t kill the target we are getting charged now. I played a game against Nids not too long ago. Falling back is no where near what JSJ, considering we get tore up in combat.


True Dat, avoiding combat is definitely better than being able to shoot back after getting mauled. Now if you gave me a stratagem to fire all my ranged weapons in the assault phase, that I would pay CP for

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QimRas
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#896 » Dec 06 2017 06:38

Ok, so basically its all about avoiding close combat.

So my question is..... why? Doesn't that completely invalidate the one army wide special ability we have? Sure we only hit on 6s, but we can put out a lot of shots using For The Greater Good from multiple units. Also, if you are really that worried about being charged why not screen with shield drones? They are hard to remove, and we still get to overwatch via FTGG. I feel like we should be trying to bait enemies into charges as opposed to staying out of range. Hell, with all the talk about Flamer Crisis if you can bait charges that basically just gives you an extra shooting phase. Sure there is the potential for damage, but again... Shield Drones.

So based on what we have now and the way the game is playing why do we even need JSJ? Is there anything we really can not do without it? Do we not have plenty of other tools to deal with close combat?

DancinHobo
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#897 » Dec 06 2017 07:50

QimRas wrote:Ok, so basically its all about avoiding close combat.

So my question is..... why? Doesn't that completely invalidate the one army wide special ability we have? Sure we only hit on 6s, but we can put out a lot of shots using For The Greater Good from multiple units. Also, if you are really that worried about being charged why not screen with shield drones? They are hard to remove, and we still get to overwatch via FTGG. I feel like we should be trying to bait enemies into charges as opposed to staying out of range. Hell, with all the talk about Flamer Crisis if you can bait charges that basically just gives you an extra shooting phase. Sure there is the potential for damage, but again... Shield Drones.

So based on what we have now and the way the game is playing why do we even need JSJ? Is there anything we really can not do without it? Do we not have plenty of other tools to deal with close combat?
sure we can bait a charge. But do you really want the assault terminators charging your Flamer Crisis team. Overwatch will do next to nothing and you’ll most likely loose the entire team. Or if you drop within Melta of a Ork Trukk. Bust it open just to have the Boyz bust ya ‘eds in combat. Let’s say you take CIB’s and light up some gene stealers at max range. You’re gonna loose your team next turn on the charge. Gene stealers are fast. And they are ridiculously good in combat!
Also greater good is nice for gun lines. But battle suits are usually ( atleast mine) not close enough to benefit that much. They have short range weapons and need to get close, but fight like grandmas. I know people charge units to deny shooting this edition, but not me. I still try to avoid close combat at all cost.

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Arka0415
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#898 » Dec 06 2017 08:18

DancinHobo wrote:Sure we can bait a charge. But do you really want the assault terminators charging your Flamer Crisis team. Overwatch will do next to nothing and you’ll most likely loose the entire team. Or if you drop within Melta of a Ork Trukk. Bust it open just to have the Boyz bust ya ‘eds in combat. Let’s say you take CIB’s and light up some gene stealers at max range. You’re gonna loose your team next turn on the charge. Gene stealers are fast. And they are ridiculously good in combat!
Also greater good is nice for gun lines. But battle suits are usually ( atleast mine) not close enough to benefit that much. They have short range weapons and need to get close, but fight like grandmas. I know people charge units to deny shooting this edition, but not me. I still try to avoid close combat at all cost.

I apologize if this sounds like "git good", but those are all avoidable situations. If you break open a Trukk, you better have Gun Drones or Fire Warriors on standby to slaughter those Boyz. If you shoot Genestealers at max range, you better have backup firepower in place to get rid of the stragglers. To avoid powerful units charging us, you need to think a few moves ahead. Sorry if that sounds patronizing though!

DancinHobo
Shas
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#899 » Dec 06 2017 08:35

Arka0415 wrote:
DancinHobo wrote:Sure we can bait a charge. But do you really want the assault terminators charging your Flamer Crisis team. Overwatch will do next to nothing and you’ll most likely loose the entire team. Or if you drop within Melta of a Ork Trukk. Bust it open just to have the Boyz bust ya ‘eds in combat. Let’s say you take CIB’s and light up some gene stealers at max range. You’re gonna loose your team next turn on the charge. Gene stealers are fast. And they are ridiculously good in combat!
Also greater good is nice for gun lines. But battle suits are usually ( atleast mine) not close enough to benefit that much. They have short range weapons and need to get close, but fight like grandmas. I know people charge units to deny shooting this edition, but not me. I still try to avoid close combat at all cost.

I apologize if this sounds like "git good", but those are all avoidable situations. If you break open a Trukk, you better have Gun Drones or Fire Warriors on standby to slaughter those Boyz. If you shoot Genestealers at max range, you better have backup firepower in place to get rid of the stragglers. To avoid powerful units charging us, you need to think a few moves ahead. Sorry if that sounds patronizing though!

Nah. Fair points. I usually do have back ups to avoid said situations. But sometimes things go wrong. But no, not patronizing.

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QimRas
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Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#900 » Dec 06 2017 08:50

DancinHobo wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:
DancinHobo wrote:Sure we can bait a charge. But do you really want the assault terminators charging your Flamer Crisis team. Overwatch will do next to nothing and you’ll most likely loose the entire team. Or if you drop within Melta of a Ork Trukk. Bust it open just to have the Boyz bust ya ‘eds in combat. Let’s say you take CIB’s and light up some gene stealers at max range. You’re gonna loose your team next turn on the charge. Gene stealers are fast. And they are ridiculously good in combat!
Also greater good is nice for gun lines. But battle suits are usually ( atleast mine) not close enough to benefit that much. They have short range weapons and need to get close, but fight like grandmas. I know people charge units to deny shooting this edition, but not me. I still try to avoid close combat at all cost.

I apologize if this sounds like "git good", but those are all avoidable situations. If you break open a Trukk, you better have Gun Drones or Fire Warriors on standby to slaughter those Boyz. If you shoot Genestealers at max range, you better have backup firepower in place to get rid of the stragglers. To avoid powerful units charging us, you need to think a few moves ahead. Sorry if that sounds patronizing though!

Nah. Fair points. I usually do have back ups to avoid said situations. But sometimes things go wrong. But no, not patronizing.


So I wrote up this whole post breaking down each situation and how you would still be in charge range even with JSJ (excluding the terminators, which just sounds like a bad drop) but it just seems like piling on after Arkas comments.

The jist of my suggestion was that drones being a separate unit is a huge boon for us in close combat. We can use them as assault shields without worrying about our suits running or even taken damage, since you can only declare attacks against units you actively charge, even if you can consolidate into the suits. And since they all have FLY, we can just casually walk out of combat and still shoot like the combat never happened. Combined this with FTGG and we even get to overwatch when our poor poor drones get charged, so even if you set up with unarmed Shield Drones as your assault shield, you still get to take a bite out of the attackers in Overwatch. We have a whole lot of tools in our tool chest when it comes to close combat, so I am trying to sort out why people are stuck on the loss of this one tool that doesn't even seem that effective anymore.

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