Upcoming T'au Codex

Use this area for all discussions of the "gaming" aspect of 40K/Tau.
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Orion7
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Posts: 80

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#1297 » Jan 08 2018 06:32

One thing I'd like to see in the codex is the ability to take understrength units without CP penalty (maybe proportional to the points limit, say one understrength per 500 points). After all, Monat is the third school of tau battle. We've got tonnes of representation for mont'ka and ka'yon bit no love for monat.

Imagine how useful that could be, being able to drop a single stealth suit with DC into a key position, or a single XV8 CIB with EWO into prime annoyance position. Heck, even being able to dump a single kroot hound on first move outside LOS to provide deepstrike denial would be fantastic. Being able to get those bonuses without the tax of the full unit


Limitations? You mean you don't want Fido the kroot hound as a character?

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2665

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#1298 » Jan 08 2018 06:50

Orion7 wrote:One thing I'd like to see in the codex is the ability to take understrength units without CP penalty (maybe proportional to the points limit, say one understrength per 500 points). After all, Monat is the third school of tau battle. We've got tonnes of representation for mont'ka and ka'yon bit no love for monat.

Imagine how useful that could be, being able to drop a single stealth suit with DC into a key position, or a single XV8 CIB with EWO into prime annoyance position. Heck, even being able to dump a single kroot hound on first move outside LOS to provide deepstrike denial would be fantastic. Being able to get those bonuses without the tax of the full unit

I'd love that, but I don't think monat quite extends to Kroot Hounds! :D

Hawkins
Shas'Saal
Posts: 32

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#1299 » Jan 08 2018 07:19

Orion7 wrote:One thing I'd like to see in the codex is the ability to take understrength units without CP penalty (maybe proportional to the points limit, say one understrength per 500 points). After all, Monat is the third school of tau battle. We've got tonnes of representation for mont'ka and ka'yon bit no love for monat.

Imagine how useful that could be, being able to drop a single stealth suit with DC into a key position, or a single XV8 CIB with EWO into prime annoyance position. Heck, even being able to dump a single kroot hound on first move outside LOS to provide deepstrike denial would be fantastic. Being able to get those bonuses without the tax of the full unit


I think the Monat option would be best represented by a separate unit entry. Count it as a character, but make it less powerful than a Shas'O.

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Orion7
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Posts: 80

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#1300 » Jan 08 2018 07:19

Arka0415 wrote:
Orion7 wrote:One thing I'd like to see in the codex is the ability to take understrength units without CP penalty (maybe proportional to the points limit, say one understrength per 500 points). After all, Monat is the third school of tau battle. We've got tonnes of representation for mont'ka and ka'yon bit no love for monat.

Imagine how useful that could be, being able to drop a single stealth suit with DC into a key position, or a single XV8 CIB with EWO into prime annoyance position. Heck, even being able to dump a single kroot hound on first move outside LOS to provide deepstrike denial would be fantastic. Being able to get those bonuses without the tax of the full unit

I'd love that, but I don't think monat quite extends to Kroot Hounds! :D

HE'S A GOOD BOY LEAVE THE DOGGO ALONE


Limitations? You mean you don't want Fido the kroot hound as a character?

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Temennigru
Shas'Saal
Posts: 135

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#1301 » Jan 08 2018 07:37

Orion7 wrote:One thing I'd like to see in the codex is the ability to take understrength units without CP penalty (maybe proportional to the points limit, say one understrength per 500 points). After all, Monat is the third school of tau battle. We've got tonnes of representation for mont'ka and ka'yon bit no love for monat.

Imagine how useful that could be, being able to drop a single stealth suit with DC into a key position, or a single XV8 CIB with EWO into prime annoyance position. Heck, even being able to dump a single kroot hound on first move outside LOS to provide deepstrike denial would be fantastic. Being able to get those bonuses without the tax of the full unit

I'll second that. Understrength units should be better supported.

But like Hawkins said, I think monat would be better represented by allowing any one model to become a character (with limitations, obviously).


Speaking of the tau schools of war, don't you guys think it would be better for them to be stratagems?
I mean, it would fit the flavor perfectly.

Mont'ka: 1CP: Allows board-wide advance and shoot
Kau'yon: 1CP: Allows board-wide stand-still and reroll
Monat: 2CP: Deploy a minimum-size unit as a unit of one character. The character gains half of all the wounds from the unit, BS 2+, WS 3+, etc.
or
All models in the unit become characters and each of them becomes his own separate unit.
Last edited by Temennigru on Jan 08 2018 08:01, edited 3 times in total.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2665

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#1302 » Jan 08 2018 07:56

Temennigru wrote:Speaking of the tau schools of war, don't you guys think it would be better for them to be stratagems?
I mean, it would fit the flavor perfectly.

An "Army of One" stratagem? I could imagine something allowing an XV8 or Bodyguard squad to split 2/1 before deploying. That could be interesting.

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Orion7
Shas'Saal
Posts: 80

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#1303 » Jan 08 2018 07:58

Temennigru wrote:
Orion7 wrote:One thing I'd like to see in the codex is the ability to take understrength units without CP penalty (maybe proportional to the points limit, say one understrength per 500 points). After all, Monat is the third school of tau battle. We've got tonnes of representation for mont'ka and ka'yon bit no love for monat.

Imagine how useful that could be, being able to drop a single stealth suit with DC into a key position, or a single XV8 CIB with EWO into prime annoyance position. Heck, even being able to dump a single kroot hound on first move outside LOS to provide deepstrike denial would be fantastic. Being able to get those bonuses without the tax of the full unit

I'll second that. Understrength units should be better supported.

But like Hawkins said, I think monat would be better represented by allowing any one model to become a character (with limitations, obviously).


Speaking of the tau schools of war, don't you guys think it would be better for them to be stratagems?
I mean, it would fit the flavor perfectly.

Limitations? You mean you don''t want Fido the kroot hound as a character?


Limitations? You mean you don't want Fido the kroot hound as a character?

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Temennigru
Shas'Saal
Posts: 135

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#1304 » Jan 08 2018 07:59

Orion7 wrote:
Temennigru wrote:
Orion7 wrote:One thing I'd like to see in the codex is the ability to take understrength units without CP penalty (maybe proportional to the points limit, say one understrength per 500 points). After all, Monat is the third school of tau battle. We've got tonnes of representation for mont'ka and ka'yon bit no love for monat.

Imagine how useful that could be, being able to drop a single stealth suit with DC into a key position, or a single XV8 CIB with EWO into prime annoyance position. Heck, even being able to dump a single kroot hound on first move outside LOS to provide deepstrike denial would be fantastic. Being able to get those bonuses without the tax of the full unit

I'll second that. Understrength units should be better supported.

But like Hawkins said, I think monat would be better represented by allowing any one model to become a character (with limitations, obviously).


Speaking of the tau schools of war, don't you guys think it would be better for them to be stratagems?
I mean, it would fit the flavor perfectly.

Limitations? You mean you don''t want Fido the kroot hound as a character?

I meant allow one of these per game or something like that.

pilky
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 277

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#1305 » Jan 08 2018 08:01

Temennigru wrote:
pilky wrote:
True, though the Breachers setup has
- More survivability (30 wounds vs 17)
- A markerlight
- A 5+ invuln
- A fairly reasonable movement (21” max movement over 2 turns vs 14” if you're deep striking vespid)
- Objective secured
- Far better wound rolls (2+ vs 3+ for marines, 4+ vs 5+ for most vehicles)

And the fly and leadership advantages Vespid have are negated by Darkstrider (letting Breachers retreat and shoot) and Bonding Knife (effective a +1 to leadership). That's not to say they couldn’t be improved, but I wouldn’t call it a clear win for either option


You can't just add everything up and say they have all that.

1- Breachers don't have invuln. They need a drone to do that, and the drone takes the place of 1 breacher in the devilfish. It is also a separate unit, so people can just shoot at it first.
2- 30 wounds but most of them are on the devilfish, which is pretty much useless by itself. It can fire a burst cannon 4x yay. It can even blow your breachers up if a) They are still in the vehicle when it dies and b) It explodes.
3- That "fairly reasonable movement" means they have to spend 1 whole round not shooting.
4- They do not have more survivability, given that they can't stay out of charge range when shooting and they aren't safe in reserve before they can get into range.
5- 4+ wound on vehicles is hardly impressive, given that they only deal 1 damage and only have -1 AP. People don't shoot breachers at vehicles.


Except they do have all that. If they shoot the drones the Breachers aren't being shot (assuming you don’t position the drones out of LoS). If they shoot at the devilfish, the Breachers aren’t being shot. Yes you lose a round of shooting but that's the sacrifice of the manoeuvrability. Yes they can't stay out of charge range, but every time I've got the Breachers up close and personal they've decimated the target unit, chipped a bit more away on overwatch, and then had enough survive combat to finish the unit off with another round of shooting after falling back. And yes, firing a vehicles isn't the best use for them, but you have that ace in your pocket if you need it. I'd rather have a unit with that potential and not use it, than need it and not have access to it

If you want to compare them to the job of a highly mobile infantry killing force, then of course Vespid are going to be better at that. If you're looking for a hard hitting, reasonably hard to shift, board (and more importantly objective) control unit then from my experience in 8th, Vespid aren't as good as the Breacher/Darkstrider/Devilfish combo. After all, what’s the point in sitting of a 14” move if you're going to sit on an objective and be able to have one enemy troop model potentially be able to take control of it from you ;)

All of this is to say, yes it would be nice to see them get buffs, but they're far from needing a buff to be very useful in 8th
Last edited by pilky on Jan 08 2018 08:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Posts: 2665

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#1306 » Jan 08 2018 08:02

Temennigru wrote:I meant allow one of these per game or something like that.

One Monat unit per game would make sense. Are there any stratagems that work during list-building? That could set a precedent for a Monat-type stratagem.

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Kelandis
Shas'Saal
Posts: 24

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#1307 » Jan 08 2018 08:03

Temennigru wrote:
Orion7 wrote:One thing I'd like to see in the codex is the ability to take understrength units without CP penalty (maybe proportional to the points limit, say one understrength per 500 points). After all, Monat is the third school of tau battle. We've got tonnes of representation for mont'ka and ka'yon bit no love for monat.

Imagine how useful that could be, being able to drop a single stealth suit with DC into a key position, or a single XV8 CIB with EWO into prime annoyance position. Heck, even being able to dump a single kroot hound on first move outside LOS to provide deepstrike denial would be fantastic. Being able to get those bonuses without the tax of the full unit

I'll second that. Understrength units should be better supported.

But like Hawkins said, I think monat would be better represented by allowing any one model to become a character (with limitations, obviously).


Speaking of the tau schools of war, don't you guys think it would be better for them to be stratagems?
I mean, it would fit the flavor perfectly.

Mont'ka: 1CP: Allows board-wide advance and shoot
Kau'yon: 1CP: Allows board-wide stand-still and reroll
Monat: 2CP: Deploy a minimum-size unit as a unit of one character. The character gains half of all the wounds from the unit, BS 2+, WS 3+, etc.
or
All models in the unit become characters and each of them becomes his own separate unit.


Making them into Stratagems like that would be really cool I think. And with that, it would allow the removal of them from Commander battlesuits and the addition of other kinds of "always on" aura buffs I think similar to what other factions have easy access to.

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Temennigru
Shas'Saal
Posts: 135

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#1308 » Jan 08 2018 08:03

Arka0415 wrote:
Temennigru wrote:I meant allow one of these per game or something like that.

One Monat unit per game would make sense. Are there any stratagems that work during list-building? That could set a precedent for a Monat-type stratagem.

I know there are stratagems that work during deployment, like "Deploy this in reserve. It gains deep strike."
Why not during list building?

Kelandis wrote:Making them into Stratagems like that would be really cool I think. And with that, it would allow the removal of them from Commander battlesuits and the addition of other kinds of "always on" aura buffs I think similar to what other factions have easy access to.


Farsight and shadowsun could even give you a free use of each, or give them a special warlord trait that gives them free forever.
Last edited by Temennigru on Jan 08 2018 08:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Posts: 2665

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#1309 » Jan 08 2018 08:04

pilky wrote:After all, what’s the point in sitting of a 14” move if you're going to sit on an objective and be able to have one enemy troop model potentially be able to take control of it from you ;)

All of this is to say, yes it would be nice to see them get buffs, but they're far from needing a buff to be very useful in 8th

Remember though, Vespids can get their damage in on turn 1, whereas Breachers will very likely only deal damage on turn 2+.

pilky
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 277

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#1310 » Jan 08 2018 08:06

Arka0415 wrote:
Temennigru wrote:I meant allow one of these per game or something like that.

One Monat unit per game would make sense. Are there any stratagems that work during list-building? That could set a precedent for a Monat-type stratagem.


The various armies usually get “1CP to take a second relic, 3CP for a third”. And space marines get one to update a captain to a chapter master, so it's certainly a possibility. But then if you're spending 1CP for a single Monat then that's no different to taking an undercosted unit as you're losing a CP either way

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Arka0415
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Posts: 2665

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#1311 » Jan 08 2018 08:08

Kelandis wrote:
Temennigru wrote:
Orion7 wrote:One thing I'd like to see in the codex is the ability to take understrength units without CP penalty (maybe proportional to the points limit, say one understrength per 500 points). After all, Monat is the third school of tau battle. We've got tonnes of representation for mont'ka and ka'yon bit no love for monat.

Imagine how useful that could be, being able to drop a single stealth suit with DC into a key position, or a single XV8 CIB with EWO into prime annoyance position. Heck, even being able to dump a single kroot hound on first move outside LOS to provide deepstrike denial would be fantastic. Being able to get those bonuses without the tax of the full unit

I'll second that. Understrength units should be better supported.

But like Hawkins said, I think monat would be better represented by allowing any one model to become a character (with limitations, obviously).


Speaking of the tau schools of war, don't you guys think it would be better for them to be stratagems?
I mean, it would fit the flavor perfectly.

Mont'ka: 1CP: Allows board-wide advance and shoot
Kau'yon: 1CP: Allows board-wide stand-still and reroll
Monat: 2CP: Deploy a minimum-size unit as a unit of one character. The character gains half of all the wounds from the unit, BS 2+, WS 3+, etc.
or
All models in the unit become characters and each of them becomes his own separate unit.


Making them into Stratagems like that would be really cool I think. And with that, it would allow the removal of them from Commander battlesuits and the addition of other kinds of "always on" aura buffs I think similar to what other factions have easy access to.

Can I just mention that Kauyon is oddly clunky to use for an ability that's all about drawing the enemy in? To unleash a deadly volley that's re-rolling hits, you probably want to move your units to the perfect range- either backwards to draw the enemy in, or forwards to get in within your ideal rapid-fire range. Staying still means Kauyon is almost pointlessly annoying to use.

If it was "move at half speed" or "move 3" or less" that would make more sense, both as a game rule and to represent the actual school of kauyon.

pilky
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 277

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#1312 » Jan 08 2018 08:15

Arka0415 wrote:
pilky wrote:After all, what’s the point in sitting of a 14” move if you're going to sit on an objective and be able to have one enemy troop model potentially be able to take control of it from you ;)

All of this is to say, yes it would be nice to see them get buffs, but they're far from needing a buff to be very useful in 8th

Remember though, Vespids can get their damage in on turn 1, whereas Breachers will very likely only deal damage on turn 2+.


True, but the Breachers survivability gives a better potential for game long impact. I guess one could think of Breachers as Kauyon to the Vespid's Mont'ka in terms of impact on the overall game ;)

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Temennigru
Shas'Saal
Posts: 135

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#1313 » Jan 08 2018 08:24

Arka0415 wrote:
Kelandis wrote:
Temennigru wrote:I'll second that. Understrength units should be better supported.

But like Hawkins said, I think monat would be better represented by allowing any one model to become a character (with limitations, obviously).


Speaking of the tau schools of war, don't you guys think it would be better for them to be stratagems?
I mean, it would fit the flavor perfectly.

Mont'ka: 1CP: Allows board-wide advance and shoot
Kau'yon: 1CP: Allows board-wide stand-still and reroll
Monat: 2CP: Deploy a minimum-size unit as a unit of one character. The character gains half of all the wounds from the unit, BS 2+, WS 3+, etc.
or
All models in the unit become characters and each of them becomes his own separate unit.


Making them into Stratagems like that would be really cool I think. And with that, it would allow the removal of them from Commander battlesuits and the addition of other kinds of "always on" aura buffs I think similar to what other factions have easy access to.

Can I just mention that Kauyon is oddly clunky to use for an ability that's all about drawing the enemy in? To unleash a deadly volley that's re-rolling hits, you probably want to move your units to the perfect range- either backwards to draw the enemy in, or forwards to get in within your ideal rapid-fire range. Staying still means Kauyon is almost pointlessly annoying to use.

If it was "move at half speed" or "move 3" or less" that would make more sense, both as a game rule and to represent the actual school of kauyon.

I agree.
Both mont'ka and kau'yon feel underwhelming and too limiting, even if they were table-wide. They should do more than what they do. Mont'ka could give an extra d6 of advance or something like that and kau'yon could be "move at half speed"

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Haechi
Shas'Saal
Posts: 171

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#1314 » Jan 08 2018 08:27

PullsyJr wrote:I'm not even expecting that. GW are clearly only interested in Imperium vs Chaos.



Right. That's why Eldar and Tyranids are such bad codice right now xD

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