High potential understrengths?

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boomwolf
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High potential understrengths?

Post#1 » Jul 12 2017 09:49

Greetings all.

As you may know, the FAQ gave us the option to go with under-strength units while not paying for missing models, although only one such unit of each type (so not back to the good old monat days)

HOWEVER, while recently looking at the FW list trying to make something good come out of it, I realized something.

I can take Ralai, without his drones.
His drones are epic fails, cost more than a regular drone and give nothing-but without them?
He's a pretty good warlord candidate.
T6, W8 usually a 3++ save (with 4++ being the worst case), and pile up the "fnp" trait? he's not going down any time soon-and he packs a decent punch, at enough range to stay out of trouble.
He's better without his drones than he is with them, so I'd say, drop 'em


So, that led to the obvious question-what other units can gain from under-strength?
Well, anything with mandatory "sidekicks" seems like the go-to, isn't it?

A sunshark can drop the interceptor drones, though they look ok to me.
Same applies to other tanks and gun drones, though gun drones are awesome.

The pope can drop his guards, but they are the cheapest ablative wounds I've ever seen. (and they are not that bad in case CC happens)

Ghostkeels without drones?
The drone's main issue is that they are really easy to pick off and negate the benefit, and that multiple drones don't really add any benefit-but what if we outright leave the drones home and take just the ghosts? this one strikes me as a potential hit, a three-ghost team can chave off 60 points in drones.


Any other potential (ab)uses of under-strength units, other than the obvious uses?

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Gragagrogog
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#2 » Jul 12 2017 10:20

Eh, this is exactly why I hate the GW doing this, sure let's take a rule that's intended for newbies in non competitive environment and squeeze it. Anyway...

You can have 2 XV8 monats, one normal, the other bodyguard. Not taking drones on a vehicle for less VPs might be worth it, if you can't avoid it otherwise. I could see some use for understrenght Stealthsuits when used mainly for homing beacon or drone controller. Also, Tetras are 2-4, might be better just to take one.

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Arka0415
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#3 » Jul 12 2017 10:29

Gragagrogog wrote:Eh, this is exactly why I hate the GW doing this, sure let's take a rule that's intended for newbies in non competitive environment and squeeze it. Anyway...


I agree here. This rule is only meant to allow new players not to field models they don't own. It should not be considered for serious competitive play.

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Gragagrogog
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#4 » Jul 12 2017 10:45

Arka0415 wrote:It should not be considered for serious competitive play.


I don't see why not. Unless we start seeing tournament organisers ban it, it's a valid option.

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Arka0415
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#5 » Jul 12 2017 10:56

Gragagrogog wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:It should not be considered for serious competitive play.


I don't see why not. Unless we start seeing tournament organisers ban it, it's a valid option.


The rule literally says that it's for players who don't have enough models.

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Gragagrogog
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#6 » Jul 12 2017 11:07

Arka0415 wrote:The rule literally says that it's for players who don't have enough models.


Possession is an abstract concept.

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Panzer
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#7 » Jul 12 2017 11:24

Eh I'd expect most tournaments that actually matter to ban the use of that 'rule'.

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boomwolf
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#8 » Jul 12 2017 11:54

Arka0415 wrote:
Gragagrogog wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:It should not be considered for serious competitive play.


I don't see why not. Unless we start seeing tournament organisers ban it, it's a valid option.


The rule literally says that it's for players who don't have enough models.



I'm totally willing to displace my blacklight marker drones for the time being, I'm sure there are other cases too.

bytestream
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Posts: 13

Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#9 » Jul 13 2017 12:06

boomwolf wrote:Any other potential (ab)uses of under-strength units, other than the obvious uses?


Bring Pathfinder Support Drones without any Pathfinder to support them.

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Dark Hope
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#10 » Jul 13 2017 01:02

I hate the power rating system so much. Had a new player come to my local GW store and wanted a quick game. We decided to use power points to hasten the list building process. I absolutely wrecked him into oblivion. The entire game I was like are you sure that's 60 power points? We counted it several times to make sure. I felt crazy bad for destroying a new player so I decided to count out the actual point value of both armies. His was about 1000 points, mine was about 1600. The thing you gotta realize is that the power ratings don't take into account equipment whatsoever, so when you load up crisis suits with fusion guns and missile pods and your opponent takes mostly bolt guns, it quickly becomes unbalanced.
If kroot eat orks, doesn't that make them omvivores?

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Panzer
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#11 » Jul 13 2017 01:16

bytestream wrote:
boomwolf wrote:Any other potential (ab)uses of under-strength units, other than the obvious uses?


Bring Pathfinder Support Drones without any Pathfinder to support them.

Pathfinder are literally just 40p and for that they offer great utility. There is no point in trying to bend the rules just so you can save those 40p lmao

Dark Hope wrote:I hate the power rating system so much. Had a new player come to my local GW store and wanted a quick game. We decided to use power points to hasten the list building process. I absolutely wrecked him into oblivion. The entire game I was like are you sure that's 60 power points? We counted it several times to make sure. I felt crazy bad for destroying a new player so I decided to count out the actual point value of both armies. His was about 1000 points, mine was about 1600. The thing you gotta realize is that the power ratings don't take into account equipment whatsoever, so when you load up crisis suits with fusion guns and missile pods and your opponent takes mostly bolt guns, it quickly becomes unbalanced.

Yes, Power Rating is terrible for balancing....however what has that to do with this threads topic?

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Atzilla
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#12 » Jul 13 2017 01:19

Bring Crisis Teams with Gun Drones but without Crisis.
Now Manta deploy gun drones.
Profit.

Seriously, don't use the understrength rule...

Jburli
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#13 » Jul 13 2017 01:57

As a new-ish player with just the start collecting box and a few extras, I'd feel somewhat justified in taking a commander and a unit of 2 crisis suits. Maybe even two commanders and a crisis monat.
But though I literally don't have the available models, I'd only consider this acceptable for 'friendly' games, the rule isn't intended for competitive environments.

The social repercussions of abusing rules shouldn't be overlooked. We get our advantages where we can, but it's better to lose battles than lose people's respect. :smile:

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Dark Hope
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#14 » Jul 13 2017 02:19

Panzer wrote:Yes, Power Rating is terrible for balancing....however what has that to do with this threads topic?


Sorry, maybe I misinterpreted the topic. I thought understrength units were power ratings at under the normal minimum requirements?
If kroot eat orks, doesn't that make them omvivores?

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Arka0415
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#15 » Jul 13 2017 02:54

Dark Hope wrote:The thing you gotta realize is that the power ratings don't take into account equipment whatsoever, so when you load up crisis suits with fusion guns and missile pods and your opponent takes mostly bolt guns, it quickly becomes unbalanced.


Didn't someone run the numbers and find out that Power Level was based on 50% the cost of the most expensive wargear upgrade, or something like that?

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Arka0415
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#16 » Jul 13 2017 03:04

Gragagrogog wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:The rule literally says that it's for players who don't have enough models.


Possession is an abstract concept.


Trying to argue about the abstractness of "possession" is going to raise a lot of eyebrows, even in non-competitive events. Why abuse a rule designed for new players when we have plenty of viable options?

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Gragagrogog
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#17 » Jul 13 2017 03:43

Arka0415 wrote:
Gragagrogog wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:The rule literally says that it's for players who don't have enough models.


Possession is an abstract concept.


Trying to argue about the abstractness of "possession" is going to raise a lot of eyebrows, even in non-competitive events. Why abuse a rule designed for new players when we have plenty of viable options?


That's a quote from a movie btw :D

I get what you say, but possession is rly outside of the scale of the game. Unless you live in some country where you can't give models you don't need to a relative, it's something that's perfectly legal, both from the law and rules of the game perspectives.

And yea if I go to a tournament, I want this to be banned. If I play in a local store, I'd house rule it out, unless I play against a newbie.

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Arka0415
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#18 » Jul 13 2017 03:54

Gragagrogog wrote:That's a quote from a movie btw :D


Wait, was that from Game of Thrones? I thought it sounded familiar!

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