Let's Contact GW! (Round 2)

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Arka0415
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Let's Contact GW! (Round 2)

Post#1 » Aug 02 2017 10:59

I'm back again, looking for feedback about the glaring issues in our Index so we can report some of these issues on to the Games Workshop game design team. Is this a long shot? Yes. But they responded to our last little petition, so I'm still hopeful that someone out there is listening.

This time, I'm mainly thinking about the points costs for weapons, their average damage output vs various targets, and their overall viability as a product of these other factors. If we can express these mathematically, and compare them to (for example) Space Marine equivalent weapons, I think we can make a very convincing argument.

Here are the comparisons I have in mind:

1 Heavy Rail Rifle vs 2 Lascannons (Same role, same number of shots, similar points values)
1 Rail Rifle vs 1 Lascannon (Similar number of shots, similar points values)
1 Hammerhead vs 1 Predator w/ 4 Lascannons (Same role, similar points values)

Once I get ideas from all of you, I'll put together a very brief summary of the issue, we can all look it over, and then I'll submit it. I look forward to hearing your ideas again!

EDIT: The old thread can be found here: viewtopic.php?t=25990
Last edited by Arka0415 on Aug 02 2017 11:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Glarblar
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 2)

Post#2 » Aug 02 2017 11:11

I'd like to ask for a revised way to do PP for Crisis suits, and maybe the riptide.

As it stands, there is a 200 point possible swing in point values for crisis suits (ATS+2 Flamers VS 3 MP) and I feel punished if I do want to bring flamers.

PeeJ
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 2)

Post#3 » Aug 02 2017 11:14

Arka0415 wrote:[color=#FFBF00]But they responded to our last little petition, so I'm still hopeful that someone out there is listening.


Sorry to instantly derail, but I missed this, what was said in the petition and what was the response? (Was the BS4+ XV8 complaint included?)

I think you have a very good point about the Railgun VS Lascannon comparison, but I do like the fact that they are not just the same. I think the mortal wounds mechanic for railguns is both fitting and interesting. It just needs to be a little more reliable (Like 2 x D3 damage, plus on a roll of a 6 you get the mortal wound rolls mechanic triggering. Increases reliable damage output whilst keeping the unique aspect of the gun, doubling the chances of it triggering but not making it too OP).

The requests need to be tempered in order for GW to see it as anything but wishlisting.

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Arka0415
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 2)

Post#4 » Aug 02 2017 11:22

PeeJ wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:[color=#FFBF00]But they responded to our last little petition, so I'm still hopeful that someone out there is listening.


Sorry to instantly derail, but I missed this, what was said in the petition and what was the response? (Was the BS4+ XV8 complaint included?)

I think you have a very good point about the Railgun VS Lascannon comparison, but I do like the fact that they are not just the same. I think the mortal wounds mechanic for railguns is both fitting and interesting. It just needs to be a little more reliable (Like 2 x D3 damage, plus on a roll of a 6 you get the mortal wound rolls mechanic triggering. Increases reliable damage output whilst keeping the unique aspect of the gun, doubling the chances of it triggering but not making it too OP).

The requests need to be tempered in order for GW to see it as anything but wishlisting.


Sorry, I didn't include a link to the original thread in my post. It's updated with the new information, so you can follow the link to see the old thread. Feel free to look through it and you'll be able to see how our ideas evolved, the final draft of our petition, and the response we got.

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Yojimbob
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 2)

Post#5 » Aug 02 2017 12:19

Currently part of the problem I have with Broadsides and Riptides is that SMS is 40 points to put the pair on either of these guys. I think they vastly overestimate the damage it does based on old 7th ed Tau where we were basically always BS2+ with rerolls. I would like the SMS system to drop in points to help balance these units as it is currently cost inhibitive to take on every chassis.

All of our rail weapons need a rework of some kind either in increased average damage output or reduction in cost. The only Rail user so far that is worth their competitive salt is clearly Longstrike and 1 railgun shot does not an army make.

Vehicle chassis seem to be ok since they are fairly durable and have the fly keyword keeping them shooting even after getting locked in combat though the Skyray and razorshark need some love, likely in a points reduction. I expect to see some kind of vehicle upgrades in the dex and this may alleviate some of their troubles.

Not going to get into the commander vs xv8 thing because we all know it should be somewhat rebalanced in points if they ever want us to use anything other than QFC's and 3CIB ATS mander.

Slight points reduction on Aun'va, Aun'shi, Farsight and Shadowsun or increase in abilities if taken as warlord. Currently they have no place in competitive meta whereas Bobby G, Magnus and countless others are worth having around. Previously Farsight was able to deepstrike anywhere and I would like to see that return in some capacity (IE he comes in plus a unit of XV8 like they could use a homing beacon and with this his price would clearly increase).

Need some kind of synergistic kroot ability to make krootox riders more viable or points reduction.

Ghostkeel stealth drones may need to work for other stealth units (Including Shadowsun!) or needs to have higher durability since they are only ever a unit of 2 and never forces your opponent to need to shoot at a -2 to hit the keel itself thus making them glorified ablative drone wounds or be 0 points when you get the Ghostkeel or remove them altogether and make the keel -1 always and -2 when outside of 12" and remove the drones entirely.

Firesight marksman should be able to do something other than eat a force org slot for a currently terrible sniper choice. Speaking of terrible sniper choices, our sniper drones don't even snipe! Needs to either be WAY cheaper or gets a mortal wound on 6 like EVERYONE else.

Tactical drones should be sold in boxes, not just blisters of 2. (I know this isn't a codex balance but if we're putting stuff that is wrong in a list... :D )

Tidewall gunrig needs to have some way to increase BS even if it's by 1 when it is piloted or have points reduced.

Tidewall Droneport should have it's rules for detached vs mounted switched IE if the drones come off they no longer gain the BS benefit from the user on the droneport or have points reduced.

MANY of our units are VERY good so don't take this as a list of gripes but more of a focus on what is currently lagging behind our stand out units.

Folklore
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 2)

Post#6 » Aug 02 2017 12:24

I think comparing Redemptor Dreadnaughts to Riptides highlights a glaring deficit. with a similar stat line, higher BS and more shots (depending on load out) you can get TWO redemptor dreads for the points cost of a single riptide. and they don't automatically take a wound to fire at full strength.

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Glarblar
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 2)

Post#7 » Aug 02 2017 12:50

Folklore wrote:I think comparing Redemptor Dreadnaughts to Riptides highlights a glaring deficit. with a similar stat line, higher BS and more shots (depending on load out) you can get TWO redemptor dreads for the points cost of a single riptide. and they don't automatically take a wound to fire at full strength.


This, I havn't seen the points and loadouts but from what I've heard its ludicrous how much points go into movement and a 5+ invul.

knute
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 2)

Post#8 » Aug 02 2017 12:58

Don't forget about the Ion Cannon. Compare it to a predator autocannon - Ion Cannon is Heavy 3, S7, AP -3, 2 damage, 55 points. Predator Autocannon is Heavy 2D3, S7, AP -1, 3 Damage, 49 points. Not to mention the Predator can take lascannons and havoc launchers.

The comparison is even more apt because, properly kitted out, they're the exact same point value.

Hammerhead w/ Ion Cannon and SMS: 212.
Predator w/ Autocannon, two lascannons, and a havoc launcher: 212 points.

The Hammerhead has 11 shots total, total potential damage of 17 wounds per turn. The Predator has an average of 9 shots, max 14 shots, and total potential damage of 36. The Hammerhead *might* average slightly more damage output per turn, but the predator has a *huge* advantage in potential burst damage.

Solution: hammerheads should probably be cheaper.

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relasine
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 2)

Post#9 » Aug 02 2017 03:02

I'd be totally happy with Riptides if using Nova Reactor to activate the Nova profile on the main weapon also triggered Ripple Fire. The biggest problem with Riptides is their lack of offensive output for their cost. Bringing back Ripple Fire and consolidating it into activating Nova profiles will help here quite a bit.

Also, maybe consider revisiting the weapon profile for the Ion Accelerator so that the number of shots for Overcharge and Nova are more consistent. Even changing them to 2d3 would be a meaningful step up.

I don't want to compare Riptides too hard to things from other factions since Riptides can pass damage off to Drones. That's a pretty big deal, something that Predators cannot do.

Knives
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 2)

Post#10 » Aug 02 2017 03:07

Send a concise list

Folklore
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 2)

Post#11 » Aug 02 2017 03:27

relasine wrote:I'd be totally happy with Riptides if using Nova Reactor to activate the Nova profile on the main weapon also triggered Ripple Fire. The biggest problem with Riptides is their lack of offensive output for their cost. Bringing back Ripple Fire and consolidating it into activating Nova profiles will help here quite a bit.

Also, maybe consider revisiting the weapon profile for the Ion Accelerator so that the number of shots for Overcharge and Nova are more consistent. Even changing them to 2d3 would be a meaningful step up.

I don't want to compare Riptides too hard to things from other factions since Riptides can pass damage off to Drones. That's a pretty big deal, something that Predators cannot do.


1. I LOVE Riptides so I will own up to my bias
2. Drones and the ablative wounds they offer are SUPER powerful (and IMO will define 8th edition T'au) but you need to balance the unit giving the buff not everything that can benefit from it. By any metric Riptides are laughably over costed and outgunned.
3. I think the ripple fire with each nova charge is a nice elegant improvement. It makes eating that automatic 1 damage feel a bit more balanced. That doesn't change the fact that both of the main guns are also sub par. especially for the points.

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relasine
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 2)

Post#12 » Aug 02 2017 03:36

I'll add this point, something I've been repeating ad nauseam, but where Commanders and Crisis Suits are concerned, I don't think it can be overstated.

These models must have different roles.

If the argument becomes that Crisis Suits must be buffed so that they can compete with Commanders, you still have two things competing for the same exact role with the same options. One will always be better than the other, and that is the thing you will see spammed. Right now, Commanders are better, and so they are shining while Crisis Suits tend to sit on the shelf.

It's fair to talk about Crisis Suits being to inaccurate for their point cost. That's fine. But people need to be really careful when discussing their inaccuracy when comparing them to Commanders, because it will always come back to the problem I first stated, that they have the same role: a deep-striking weapons platform.

The only thing that meaningfully separates Crisis Suits from Commanders is that Crisis Suits can bring more Gun Drones to bear on a deep strike. It's not enough to make them unique. Sure, Commanders have the Montka and Kauyon abilities, but they don't really do much compared to something like Rites of Battle.

They need different roles. Bring back Buffmanders or Mark'os. Bring some super-interesting Relics that would make Commanders a compelling choice because they do something different, not because they're just better at the same job that Crisis Suits are mean to fill.

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Arka0415
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 2)

Post#13 » Aug 04 2017 10:08

Here's the first draft I've come up wth. Thanks to everyone who contributed ideas! There are so many things we'd like to ask GW about, but being concise is important too. I think it's better to ask questions a few at a time, rather than posting long petitions on their Facebook page. Little by little, we might be able to make a change! Anyway, here's my idea for now.

We're contacting you again from the forum Advanced Tau Tactica, where we've recently been talking about how the Tau Index is balanced. Many of the units are useful and powerful, however, their points costs are significantly higher than equivalent units and weapons in other Indexes/Codexes.

1. The Heavy Rail Rifle is extremely expensive. The Heavy Rail Rifle on an XV88 has 2 shots, BS4+, S8, AP-4, D6 damage, and a slight chance to cause a Mortal Wound; it costs 68 points. As such, it would have a 50% chance of wounding a Leman Russ (2*0.5*0.5). A Space Marine Lascannon, on the other hand, costs only 25 points and, due to its higher accuracy and strength, has a 37% chance of wounding a Leman Russ (1*0.67*0.67*0.83). However, a Space Marine player can buy almost 3 Lascannons for the price of a single Heavy Rail Rifle.

Possible Solution: The points cost for the Heavy Rail Rifle should be lowered considerably.

2. The Rail Rifle is less powerful than other weapons with similar costs. The Rail Rifle on a Pathfinder has 1-2 shots, BS4+, S6, AP-4, D3 damage, and a slight chance to cause a Mortal Wound; it costs 22 points. Each shot has a 17% chance of wounding a Rhino (1*0.5*0.33) and deals D3 damage. A Space Marine Lascannon costs only 3 points more and is more accurate, has longer range, is stronger, and deals more damage. A Lascannon has a 37% chance of wounding a Rhino (1*0.67*0.67*0.83) and dealing D6 damage. Against a Rhino, a Rail Rifle will statistically deal 0.66 damage with two shots (2*0.5*0.33*2), while a Lascannon will deal 1.3 damage with one shot (1*0.67*0.67*0.83*3.5) at nearly the same points cot.

Possible Solutions: The points cost for the Rail Rifle should be reduced, or it should deal D6 damage.

2. The Smart Missile System has a high cost and low damage output. The Smart MIssile System on an XV88 has 4 shots, BS4+, S5, AP0, and 1 damage; it costs 20 points. It will statistically deal 0.89 wounds to a Guardsman (4*0.5*0.67*0.67). A Space Marine Heavy Bolter costs only 10 points and is more accurate and has a better AP value, though has one less shot. A Heavy Bolter will deal 1.12 wounds to a Guardsman (3*0.67*0.67*0.83), while costing half the points of a Smart Missile System. The Smart Missile System appears on many Tau units, making many very expensive.

Possible Solution: The points cost for the Smart Missile System should be reduced.

Jacket
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 2)

Post#14 » Aug 05 2017 11:41

So apparently Reece has implied that GW knows the Riptide "couldn't be any more useless". Also warns against making commander spam lists since they will likely see adjustments. I hope they re-balance the dex so we're still competitive without having to resort to commander spam.

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Unusualsuspect
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 2)

Post#15 » Aug 06 2017 04:48

I'm not understanding why an anti-heavy-infantry weapon like the Rail Rifle is being compared to an anti-vehicle weapon like the Lascannon on their relative ability to kill vehicles. They cost the same points, but so do a lot of weapons that have very different roles.

There are far, far better comparisons to make - we should at worst be comparing Gala Apples to Brayburn Apples, not Apples to Oranges.

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leo1925
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 2)

Post#16 » Aug 06 2017 05:19

Unusualsuspect wrote:I'm not understanding why an anti-heavy-infantry weapon like the Rail Rifle is being compared to an anti-vehicle weapon like the Lascannon on their relative ability to kill vehicles. They cost the same points, but so do a lot of weapons that have very different roles.

There are far, far better comparisons to make - we should at worst be comparing Gala Apples to Brayburn Apples, not Apples to Oranges.


I was thinking the same thing, but I couldn't think of a similar weapon to compare it with, can you think of one?

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Panzer
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 2)

Post#17 » Aug 06 2017 11:11

leo1925 wrote:
Unusualsuspect wrote:I'm not understanding why an anti-heavy-infantry weapon like the Rail Rifle is being compared to an anti-vehicle weapon like the Lascannon on their relative ability to kill vehicles. They cost the same points, but so do a lot of weapons that have very different roles.

There are far, far better comparisons to make - we should at worst be comparing Gala Apples to Brayburn Apples, not Apples to Oranges.


I was thinking the same thing, but I couldn't think of a similar weapon to compare it with, can you think of one?

The obvious answer would be a Plasma Rifle. Both serve the same purpose and are the same weapon type even (Rapid Fire 1). The difference would be better Strength compared to better AP, range and damage + chance of Mortal wounds.
Or better yet, the Plasma Incinerator (the 30" AP-4 Plasma gun from the Primaris).

The Plasma gun costs 9p less for less AP, less range and less damage but more strength.
The Plasma Incinerator costs 7p less for same AP, same range, less damage but more strength.

So yeah the Rail Rifle does sound a bit too expensive compared to what Marines have. Add to that our BS4+ and that we can only take it on a very frail unit I can see why people are underwhelmed by it.

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Arka0415
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 2)

Post#18 » Aug 07 2017 04:27

Unusualsuspect wrote:I'm not understanding why an anti-heavy-infantry weapon like the Rail Rifle is being compared to an anti-vehicle weapon like the Lascannon on their relative ability to kill vehicles. They cost the same points, but so do a lot of weapons that have very different roles.

There are far, far better comparisons to make - we should at worst be comparing Gala Apples to Brayburn Apples, not Apples to Oranges.


If you think there are better comparisons please let me know! Frankly, I went with the Lascannon because of how stark the comparison is- the Lascannon is so much stronger against so many more targets, yet only costs 3 more points. Let's go with the Plasma Incinerator then. It has two fire modes though, so let's use both.

Target: Terminator
-Rail Rifle: 0.45 damage
-Plasma Incinerator: 0.3 damage
-Overcharged Plasma Incinerator: 0.75 damage

Target: Centurion
-Rail Rifle: 0.56 damage
-Plasma Incinerator: 0.37 damage
-Overcharged Plasma Incinerator: 0.92 damage

Target: Rhino
-Rail Rifle: 0.33 damage
-Plasma Incinerator: 0.34 damage
-Overcharged Plasma Incinerator: 0.9 damage

Which of these is the most compelling comparison?

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