Use crisis model as commander units

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1927

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#19 » Aug 07 2017 04:00

russ29 wrote:What I can suggest is using a larger base to kit out your commander to differenciate him, or put him on a hero base for example.


Or, consider making tall-ish flying stands so your Commanders stick up (a little) above the masses!

Klapaucius87
Shas'Saal
Posts: 15

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#20 » Aug 07 2017 05:00

MNGamer wrote:If they just don't want you to use a commander period, I guess I would just buy a new xv8 enforcer.


That is most of the issue for me: the game is already expensive as is. A commander cost twice a crisis. Using crisis i can save 60€, more if i grab another start collecting box.
I guess i will just give up and buy those commanders

russ29 wrote:Is your group against your commander because of base size? Or is it because of the model height?


He compared it to playing magic with printed cards.

Wedrujacy
Shas'Saal
Posts: 51

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#21 » Aug 07 2017 05:02

But why you want to enforce yourself to use enforcer model as commander as only legalchoice?

If our codex will clearly stated that commander are in enforcer/coldstar only I will fully agree with you but until then there is no legal rule which would enforce us to do so (unless you will use really coldstar/enforcer).

Edit:
PS: or maybe you have earn too much or really love to sponsorship GW ;)

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3537

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#22 » Aug 07 2017 05:25

The price is a valid concern but one shouldn't focus too much on it. The hobby will be expensive no matter what you do and despite being similar to Crisis models it IS without a question a visually improved version of it.

I honestly don't think your friends have a problem from a rules-perspective. It's probably just that it feels cheap if someone buys a Start Collecting Box and goes "hey look, I have 3 Commander now!" without going the extra mile to make proper conversions.
It's as if a Space Marine player would buy a Start Collecting Box and go "hey look, I have 10 Captains/Librarians/whatever now!" without doing proper conversions.

Again, people are expected to use the model GW sells to represent a unit.
Conversions are usually accepted and if one still has old models from who knows when then it's usually accepted as well since forcing people to buy new models just because GW updated their range would be a dick move.
Using one model to represent a different unit IS using a proxy. Some gaming groups are stricter about it than others. Can't be helped. There is no point in arguing with your friends about it. It will only ruin the mood in your group.
The only thing you can do is either convert your Crisis so they look noticeably different to regular Crisis Suits or buy the proper model GW designed to represent a Commander.

Wedrujacy wrote:But why you want to enforce yourself to use enforcer model as commander as only legalchoice?

If our codex will clearly stated that commander are in enforcer/coldstar only I will fully agree with you but until then there is no legal rule which would enforce us to do so (unless you will use really coldstar/enforcer).

That seriously isn't a proper argument. The rules also don't say that Commander use Crisis Battlesuits anywhere. It just says Battlesuit in their keyword section of their Datasheet which could be anything with that argument.

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Gragagrogog
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#23 » Aug 07 2017 06:08

As a base size&WYSIWYG nut, I'll add that unless you play with terrain of specific height where commander would be visible, but regular crisis wouldn't, the base size and 1 extra hardpoint are rly the only things that differentiate the 2 models, in any practical sense. And yea they since they removed template/blast weapons, base size doesn't even matter that much, but commander having bigger base makes it easy to recognize them as such on first sight and it still has some gameplay consequences. IMO not using proper base size just isn't fair to the opponent.

I would suggest putting the crisis on bigger base if you can, you can even make removable enlargement adapter if you wish to play the crisis as commanders in one game and as regular crisis in others. Also, magnetized heads could help...

Antao
Shas'Saal
Posts: 46

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#24 » Aug 07 2017 07:55

Klapaucius87 wrote:Short version:
A xv8 crisis model can be used 100% legal as a commander? Or is counted as proxy?
I can be forbid from doing it?


Others have answered already in various forms but I'll toss my take in on it as well.

In the games truest form, you should be using the commander model. Yes in the past there were various versions of commanders as they were expanding the Tau army line but model size does matter and there is a clear cut current commander model. The commander model is almost a solid inch taller than the regular XV8 model and has a larger footprint as well. The height will certainly make a difference in cover saves and visibility using 8th ed formatted terrain, while the footprint size will make a difference for ranges.

Were I playing you in a tournament and you told me your "commander" was out of line of sight because you were using an XV8 that's an inch shorter than the regular commander model I'd be annoyed and argue that's cheating.

In a fun sense, while you're a new player and working on building up an army, who cares? Use those XV8's to see if you want to buy a commander or two. The last game I played against my room mate my crisis suits didn't even have weapons on them yet because I haven't had time to magnetize them. If your friends are worried about the rules ramifications, give them an extra 1/4" charge range when targeting your "XV8 Commanders" and an extra 3/4 inch of height when determining line of sight. As long as these things are clearly established before the game it should prevent any feelings from getting hurt.

(As a side note:) I understand why it's frustrating for your opponents to play against something that's not exactly as it should be. Part of the fun of the "strategy" is knowing what to expect of a situation and then acting on it. If I say... deploy a certain way, knowing you can't hide a commander behind a certain piece of terrain on your side of the board, (because I know the height of the model) and then you bring a much shorter model and hide it their anyway, it breaks my enjoyment of the game because something the rules said for certain was one way, is now another.

Edited for swearing - el'mo

Wedrujacy
Shas'Saal
Posts: 51

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#25 » Aug 07 2017 03:34

Ok, so its is as followed...

Since early codices (3th & 4th) stated directly that Commander is using XV8
aka 4th Edition page 32
"Equipment: The commander is equipped with an XV8 Crisis battlesuit"


Then in 6th eddition we can see suit which is called Enforced but text stated as they use XV8 cirisis
6th Edition page 34
"Some Tau Commanders prefere to lead from the front - pushing their XV8 Crisis battlesuits to their fullest"

Then in follow on page 70 of 6th Edition Codex we can see comparism pictures of all suits (including XV8 and XV8-05 "Enforcer") and then it states that MANY of commenders are using Enforcer.
6th Edition page 76
"Many Commanders pilot the latest iteration of the Crisis battlesuit, the XV-05 Crisis 'Enforcer', which can bear a number of weapons, support systems, and signature systems."


And finally 7th eddition where its totally nothing menioned what kind of Crisis suit is used by Commander at his fluff description or datasheet description. But...
Only idication could be find out on page 11 of 7th Edition Codex which states
"...some can be produced in limited numbers, such as XV85 Enforcer; this modified Crisis suit can mount additional support systems or weapons, and is issued almost exclusively to Commanders."


Shortly for "TL;DR" ppl ;)
There is no clear indication that XV85 Enforcer is only Crisis Suit model that is used by Commanders.
But in same time using logic as per fluff and datasheets: using XV8 instead of XV85 should also include 3 Support system only instead of 4 as for Enforcer.
So let assume that if we want to play normally Enforcer should be used as more correct representative of Commander.

<standing ovation> ;)

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Jhi'Myr
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Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#26 » Aug 08 2017 04:01

As of 6th edition, they had a finecast commander model. As of 7th edition, they had a plastic commander model and a coldstar model. AFTER they released the coldstar model, they released the Farsight Enclaves suppliment. In the FSE suppliment, they specifically illustrated Commander Brightsword, O'Sha'Vastos, and Commander Bravestorm. These three commanders were supposed to specifically be using the standard XV8 suit, and not the enforcer. We were then required to pay the points cost of commanders, with the wargear points cost specified on the formation sheet. Therein, GW specifically required the use of standard crisis XV8s on at least some commanders, even after we had the enforcer and coldstar models. They weren't even the upgraded commander models with extra bitz on their heads (in the pewter style). Just standard XV8s.

Now, if XV8s are used as commanders by requirement even after the release of the updated Enforcer model, then XV8s were legal to use as commanders despite the release of the Enforcer model. I know that this is using source material that is now technically out-dated, but it's proving that the model was a valid model in comparison to another model, not giving a stat line. Worst case scenario, you wait until our codex drops (supposedly in October) to get the source material up to date for 8th Edition. In the mean time, if someone argues that a 7th edition model specification means nothing, ask them why they're using 7th edition tyranid/necron/IG models instead of 7th edition ones. The appropriate answer should be "These are the models that were used in 7th edition. They didn't change models." And your appropriate responce to them should be "You're right. They didn't change models. These were commanders in 7th and they're still commanders."

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Overheal
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Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#27 » Aug 08 2017 05:34

Would anyone be upset if I used a 4th edition, pewter-cast Hive Tyrant? It's still a hive tyrant, from a legacy hive fleet. Same with the Red Terror, or Old One Eye, etc. I also have legacy Wraithlord models, and I would expect these to still be legally playable, as nothing has excluded their use, despite their smaller base sizes in fact most of them are roughly the same shape and height.

XV8s have been the default suit since the Tau first was an army; "Iridium armor" was a wargear option as well, but the Enforcer Suit and Coldstar are effectively optional.

So long as the model is clearly marked as a commander/warlord, I really don't see the problem. It's even a GW model, far from playing with printed cards. You know, considering most of the time I see an Ammo Runt, they're represented by pennies.

Then again you get some folks miffed at the world; I have one team of stealth suits on the newer, larger bases, and another team which is older and is on the original infantry bases. I don't really expect a huge amount of butthurt over a fraction of an inch - and if it was ever a problem, I'd expect common sense to prevail. If a tournament wants to officiate what models, and base sizes are legal, that's on them. In casual play I don't see how this should be a concern.

Unless GW wants to go the extra step and only give you the two datacards: Commander in Enforcer Suit and Commander in Coldstar Suit, then it remains open to use your old collection/configuration of miniatures to play the current game.

While the Commander and XV8 baselines are different thats things like wounds It's movement speed, its toughness and strength, its armor, is all the same.

It is an interesting question, mainly driven by the size difference in the models which GW doesn't change as dramatically all the time, but it still is no less valid to use an XV8 commander. Height problems, Asartes? Remember that your opponent could always model their unit how they wanted... like a kneeling wraithlord.

Image

Is this Riptide cheating? That would be a problem, since this is one of GW's own studio models! But it's going to stand a whole 2 inches shorter than other riptides:

Image

Or this riptide, who is taller because of his scenic base and has an advantage looking over pieces of cover

Image

Until GW says something either in an FAQ or the TBD 8th edition codex about XV8s no longer being a valid choice for a commander in some fashion, conventional wisdom stands and XV8s are a certainly permissible choice for a commander.

Here is the still-legal-still-for-sale older molder for Ultramarines hero Marneus Calgar.

Image

Here's his newer, somewhat more grizzled and bad-a self model with some bronies

Image

Either would be a legal pick for a fight, despite the difference in model height and base size.

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relasine
Shas'La
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Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#28 » Aug 08 2017 05:45

There's a super-easy solution here. If GW really wants their ruleset to enforce specific model usage in this case, they could just label the Commander entry the same way that they label the Coldstar entry: Commander in XV85 Enforcer Battlesuit.

The models come in the same box. The rules are specific on one and not the other. We can argue that this was intentional to allow people to use normal Crisis Suits for Commanders, but then we just get into debate of RAW v. RAI, and ain't nobody got time for that.

Also, this might be inflammatory to say, but I'm seriously under the impression that this whole controversy exists because people are upset about Commander spam. This was not a thing that was discussed three months ago.

Wedrujacy
Shas'Saal
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Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#29 » Aug 08 2017 05:54

Good point to be honest, especially regarding legal pose of model.

Btw I have already few which are higher then expected ie due to jumping on rock but no one is asking me to put there smaller model to check if for sure will be visible.

GW is not clear as always ;) and some gray zone has to be handled by players. Therefore as wrote no one should enforce you to use only xv85 for commander, but feeling is that it will be most suitable choice.

For casual game I don't believe there will be a problem. But interesting will be turnament judges verdict. Did anyone knew how it looks like during last ETC?

Edit:
relasine wrote:Also, this might be inflammatory to say, but I'm seriously under the impression that this whole controversy exists because people are upset about Commander spam. This was not a thing that was discussed three months ago.

that could be also a case. And just to be honest I don't want to play spam and I already have both kind of commanders which I use in games.

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relasine
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#30 » Aug 08 2017 06:02

Wedrujacy wrote:that could be also a case. And just to be honest I don't want to play spam and I already have both kind of commanders which I use in games.

The good news is that when the codex drops and Commander spam disappears (as we all assume it will), we can put my theory to the test.

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Panzer
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Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#31 » Aug 08 2017 11:52

I said it above but I say it again, I doubt his friends have a problem with it from a rules-perspective at all.
It's more likely that they just feel it's cheap that someone goes and takes three cheap Crisis Suits and uses them as Commander without the extra efford of doing conversions to make them stand out while they buy, build and paint the proper HQ models for their armies.
It's not like they couldn't do the same by buying a box of Tactical Marines and just say those are 10 Captains or whatever now but think about it a second why nobody does that....because the hobby is more than just "how can I save the most of my money" obviously.

The argument also never was about someone using any of their old models since OP clearly is new to playing T'au. Only a 'that guy' would complain about someone using their old models instead of buying half of their army new whenever GW updates their modelrange.

And yes the source of the problem definitely comes from T'au now having the viable option to spam Commander. It just adds to the "being cheap" feeling others get by using regular out-of-the-box Crisis models as Commander.

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relasine
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#32 » Aug 09 2017 12:16

I think an argument could be made that T'au players have a vested financial interest to use XV8s as Commanders because:

1. Crisis Teams are not terribly good now
2. Most T'au players have lots of Crisis Suits
3. Commanders are really good right now
4. Most T'au players don't own more than one or two Enforcer Suits
5. Commanders will likely not be taken in volume when the codex comes out in a few months

Anyone who can read the prevailing winds should understand these things.

Want to have a good tournament-level army while waiting for your codex? Well, better go out and drop $250 on Enforcer kits only so that you can shelve most them in a few months.

Nah. No, thanks.

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Panzer
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Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#33 » Aug 09 2017 01:50

Yeah I agree on that.
It should really be emphasized that using so many Crisis as Commander is just a temporary solution.

Redshift
Shas
Posts: 4

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#34 » Aug 09 2017 03:04

Hi all!

Imho a little conversion work (bigger/taller/scenic base) and a few extra bits would be the best option. Considering the wording of the commander description already discussed, the absence of blast templates and that shooting at characters is quite different from 7th edition I hardly see any real in-game problem.
Even with line of sight, coldstar/enforcer commander is about 1" taller than a standard xv8.

Also, it's hard for me to imagine "friendly" players being hostile towards someone trying to save some money, considering that the average player spends half of the time complaining about prices. :P

Worst case, if commander becomes less useful in next codex, you will still be able to use the model as a crisis shas'vre.

Common sense is the best medicine.

P.s. Just yesterday I found an old, broken crisis suit in my bits box and I had some spare fusion blasters... guess what happened?

Jburli
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 120

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#35 » Aug 09 2017 02:03

It really depends on the level you're playing at.

At top-tier tournaments it might be fair enough to expect you to be using actual commander models. But even many of the otherwise high-quality battle reports occasionally have people that say things in the army listing like:
"oh, this guy's got a flamer instead of the rocket launcher he's modelled with".
That really annoys me! But if people are getting away with this type of thing I'd say that arguing a crisis can't proxy as a commander is rather petty..

As far as I'm concerned, as long as you have the correct weapons and do something to make your commanders stand out (like modelling them as flying or having different head colours) people should be fine with it.

PS: if GW wanted us using the commander kits they should make them a lot cheaper!

budro
Shas
Posts: 43

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#36 » Aug 10 2017 08:45

I've been playing since 2005. I still use the old stealth suits, the old commander models and even the old Farsight. I also use the xv-84 forge world model. I play with top tier opponents all the time in the NOVA area. No one has ever said squat to me about using those models.

Anyone who has a problem with that is a bit silly. We're playing with painted dolls after all.

Edit: just to be clear, I also have 3 of the new commander models, but I don't feel like I had to buy them.

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