Use crisis model as commander units

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Klapaucius87
Shas'Saal
Posts: 8

Use crisis model as commander units

Post#1 » Aug 05 2017 10:45

Sorry if is a repost or something, but i had a big quarrel about this with my friends, so i tough to address the issue directly to the experts

Short version:
A xv8 crisis model can be used 100% legal as a commander? Or is counted as proxy?
I can be forbid from doing it?

Long version:
I'm a new player in the game so i have just the model coming with the start collecting box.
Some time ago i found in a few forums than the xv8 model could be used as a commander and started doing it when playing with my friend (currently i've only played against them).
After a few days one of them contested this saying that a commander got a different model.
I pointed forums ( this too) saying it is perfectly legal.
Summing the discussion that followed:
he counted it as proxy, said that if this was legal he could take a orkboy and use it as a warboss or take a raider and make a ravager, and compared it to playing magic the gathering with printed cards.
So my question is:
How legal is to use a crisis model as commander?
Up to being 'tournament legal'?
He can forbid me from doing it?

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MNGamer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 86

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#2 » Aug 05 2017 11:00

The first commander model that G dubs released was an xv8 with the two "experimental" weapons. The CIB and air bursting frag projector. Therefore all xv8s are commanders if you pay the points and tell your opponent that is is a commander rather than a crisis suit. However I paint my xv8 commanders in a different way than my crisis suits to help distinguish them. So from a rules standpoint an xv8 is not a proxy for a commander, it is a commander. This stands for tournaments too, there is no rule he can cite that will prevent you from using it as a commander. I assume that since you told him it was legal and he still contests it that his army is getting hit hard by it.
Even when broken, a sword may still cut~Aun'ko'vash

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Shas'O Bentu'nan
Shas
Posts: 52

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#3 » Aug 05 2017 11:16

Yeah, my first commander back in the day from the old kit was just a standard suit with a few pewter options for weapons and heads. As such using a standard suit as a commander is legal since an official GW model was sold that was just that.

Paint wise it is standard to paint the commanders entire head the sept color for whatever sept you are. So, for example, the standard T'au sept color is white, so the commander's head and sensor vein would be white. A standard suit would be the brown with only a white stripe with the Sargeant having brown and a white sensor vein... but that is 'standard.' However you paint it as long as it is easy to distinguish one from the other.
Commander wiseblade

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Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 2921

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#4 » Aug 06 2017 03:36

Well it's as 'legal' as using a Tactical Space Marine as Space Marine Captain. They are basically the same models just that the Captain has more fancy bits and more details.
So without improving the basis Crisis to make it look more fancy (read: do a Commander conversion) I'd definitely count it more as a proxy rather than a legit thing to do.
Take it as temporary solution until you got yourself a proper Commander or until you did a proper conversion. ;)

Anyway pointing towards forum discussions for anything that's not a rules problem is not something you should do among your friends. It doesn't matter how we see it since you don't have to play with us. You have to play with your friends and if they all are against it you should just accept it.
Last edited by Panzer on Aug 06 2017 05:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1319

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#5 » Aug 06 2017 05:26

For many, many years Commanders (back then called Shas'o and Shas'el) were just XV8s with fancy heads. The new Commander kit is nice, but as long as you clearly mark your Commander (unique heads, converted parts, possibly a taller base, etc.) you shouldn't have an issue. Again, Commanders have always been XV8s, even though they recently added a Commander model.

However, in the next couple of years you might see tournaments state a preference for the Commander set over converted XV8s, but I doubt it.

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Hungry_Bert
Shas'Saal
Posts: 45
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Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#6 » Aug 06 2017 06:56

I only own the old XV8's so I used the modernisation guide someone on the orbital made. It's a really good way to help make it obvious who is the commander.

I was even able to pick up the Coldstar jets in a bits buy on ebay and so I'm kitbashing a Coldstar commander as well.

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Otterdraws
Shas'Saal
Posts: 2

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#7 » Aug 06 2017 11:48

The only possible issue I see is that commanders as we know them now have larger bases than regular xv8's so that might be something you'll want to clear with your opponent beforehand.

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relasine
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 71

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#8 » Aug 06 2017 12:19

Otterdraws wrote:The only possible issue I see is that commanders as we know them now have larger bases than regular xv8's so that might be something you'll want to clear with your opponent beforehand.

I'm constantly amused by the idea that base size is any kind of determining factor when the development team sits down to crunch out rules.

Klapaucius87
Shas'Saal
Posts: 8

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#9 » Aug 06 2017 12:21

Thank all for your reply.

Otterdraws wrote:The only possible issue I see is that commanders as we know them now have larger bases than regular xv8's so that might be something you'll want to clear with your opponent beforehand.


That would mean that all the old crisis used as commander are illegal from the moment the new commander model came out (2013?).

Hungry_Bert wrote:I only own the old XV8's so I used the modernisation guide someone on the orbital made. It's a really good way to help make it obvious who is the commander.

I was even able to pick up the Coldstar jets in a bits buy on ebay and so I'm kitbashing a Coldstar commander as well.


How legal is bitbashing a model and/or upgrade one with handmade parts?
For example: make a cadre fireblade using a fire warrior model with the mantle from an ethereal?

Shas'O Bentu'nan wrote:Paint wise it is standard to paint the commanders entire head the sept color for whatever sept you are. So, for example, the standard T'au sept color is white, so the commander's head and sensor vein would be white. A standard suit would be the brown with only a white stripe with the Sargeant having brown and a white sensor vein... but that is 'standard.' However you paint it as long as it is easy to distinguish one from the other.


This is exactly what i was planning to do: paint it differently with those rules. Being my army sa'cea it would be orange head with blue markings and sensor. Common crisis would be blue head with orange markings and sensors.

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relasine
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 71

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#10 » Aug 06 2017 01:43

Klapaucius87 wrote:That would mean that all the old crisis used as commander are illegal from the moment the new commander model came out (2013?).

How legal is bitbashing a model and/or upgrade one with handmade parts?
For example: make a cadre fireblade using a fire warrior model with the mantle from an ethereal?

Ask ten different TOs the answer to these, and you'll likely get a handful of different answers.

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thesnailmaster
Shas'Saal
Posts: 134

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#11 » Aug 06 2017 01:45

Klapaucius87 wrote:Thank all for your reply.

Otterdraws wrote:The only possible issue I see is that commanders as we know them now have larger bases than regular xv8's so that might be something you'll want to clear with your opponent beforehand.


That would mean that all the old crisis used as commander are illegal from the moment the new commander model came out (2013?).


It would also mean that old crisis, broadside, stealth (you could argue they are smaller and easier to hide) and the plethora of other army models are also out of date and "need" to be replaced.

Unless a tournament has base size in the comp the usual rules are to use what it came with & since T'au commanders could have been made with the old kit then they can be on a 40mm base.

Until the day GW actually puts base size on the data sheet that is all we can really go with as players.

Wedrujacy
Shas'Saal
Posts: 37

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#12 » Aug 07 2017 01:03

Dears,

And again I would mention that.
No one can force you to use commander from new box as normal commander is using xv8. And base on that what you have inside new box you can build commander in coldstar or enforcer suits.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 2921

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#13 » Aug 07 2017 01:13

Yeah and nobody can force you to not use pictures on paper to represent your models. They could refuse to play with you though. So if it's really such a big deal among your friends why fight against it?

I say it again, it doesn't matter what we think. It really doesn't. It matters what your gaming group thinks. You have to play with them, not with us.

Wedrujacy
Shas'Saal
Posts: 37

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#14 » Aug 07 2017 01:29

Common of course its matter. There are proper rules and they can't force you against. If they do so, change group.

Secondly, seriously Panzer, paper? Game directly says you have to use models and those should be proper representatives.

Tertiary, take instruction from commander box during assembly you have two options how you can to build your commander: enforcer suit or coldstar suit. Both are "experimental" suits which number states xv8-<nr>.

So show me where by rules I'm forced to use enforcer or coldstar for normal commander?

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MNGamer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 86

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#15 » Aug 07 2017 01:32

Panzer wrote:Yeah and nobody can force you to not use pictures on paper to represent your models. They could refuse to play with you though. So if it's really such a big deal among your friends why fight against it?

I say it again, it doesn't matter what we think. It really doesn't. It matters what your gaming group thinks. You have to play with them, not with us.


Well, according to games workshop any model, past or present, is legal to use. https://www.warhammer-community.com/201 ... ge-post-2/ Therefor an xv8, while not being the most current commander model, is entirely legal and saves you some money. Panzer is correct in that our opinions don't matter to your gaming group, but this comes directly from GW. If they just don't want you to use a commander period, I guess I would just buy a new xv8 enforcer.
Even when broken, a sword may still cut~Aun'ko'vash

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Panzer
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 2921

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#16 » Aug 07 2017 01:36

MNGamer wrote:
Panzer wrote:Yeah and nobody can force you to not use pictures on paper to represent your models. They could refuse to play with you though. So if it's really such a big deal among your friends why fight against it?

I say it again, it doesn't matter what we think. It really doesn't. It matters what your gaming group thinks. You have to play with them, not with us.


Well, according to games workshop any model, past or present, is legal to use. https://www.warhammer-community.com/201 ... ge-post-2/ Therefor an xv8, while not being the most current commander model, is entirely legal and saves you some money. Panzer is correct in that our opinions don't matter to your gaming group, but this comes directly from GW. If they just don't want you to use a commander period, I guess I would just buy a new xv8 enforcer.

That's right. Although to be fair, the current Crisis models are not the same as the old Commander. Both have been replaced by new models since then.

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MNGamer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 86

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#17 » Aug 07 2017 01:38

Sure they got new molds for crisis suits, but it is still the same "model" for rules purposes. And the new mold looks more dynamic and commander like than the old stiff ones.
Even when broken, a sword may still cut~Aun'ko'vash

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russ29
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 322

Re: Use crisis model as commander units

Post#18 » Aug 07 2017 02:08

Is your group against your commander because of base size? Or is it because of the model height?

What I can suggest is using a larger base to kit out your commander to differenciate him, or put him on a hero base for example.

If your friends play marines, tell them that they have to rebase all of them if they are on 25mm bases. They are as legal as your commander being an XV8.

If they are still adamant about it, maybe you should tell them when your birthday is coming up! Win win situation here!
Through unity, devastation

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