Competitive Tau

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AN'SHI
Shas
Posts: 86

Competitive Tau

Post#1 » Aug 08 2017 04:31

Okay so I am one of those competitive players and though I feel the tau can be a really competitive army the way to get there is by mass commander spam.

Too many times I take a unit kit it out then think to myself why not just take another commander does anyone else feel this way?

non competitive units
Riptide
broadsides
skyray
kroot 50/50
breachers
devilfish
razor shark
firesight marksman and sniper drones
Krootox
shaper
Firesight marksman
Sniper drones

Competitive
commanders
drones
pathfinders 50/50
stealth suits
cadre fire blade
longstrike

mid tier/usable
vespid
ethereal
stormserge
sunshark bomber
piranha
kroot hounds
xv8 battle suit
Ghost keel
hammer heads
strike team 50/50

all special characters (longstrike is competitive)
Last edited by AN'SHI on Aug 14 2017 02:45, edited 4 times in total.

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relasine
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 94

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#2 » Aug 08 2017 05:37

AN'SHI wrote:non competitive units
<snip>
ghostkeels
<snip>


Okay, that's interesting. Conventional wisdom has it that Ghostkeels are quite solid. Care to expound on this?

AN'SHI
Shas
Posts: 86

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#3 » Aug 08 2017 07:14

relasine wrote:
AN'SHI wrote:non competitive units
<snip>
ghostkeels
<snip>


Okay, that's interesting. Conventional wisdom has it that Ghostkeels are quite solid. Care to expound on this?


Sure now don't get me wrong I love the ghost keel but I do feel it's is not competitive reasoning we all know the first drones can be picked off and by rhrow away units no less (scouts) and it's range barring the cir ain't to good. It's not that hard to take down if you play it right and it's output is so so. On average with the cir you will get 3 hits and 2 damage and let's say you take duel burst cannons average hits are 4 wounds are let's just say 3. With ATS you should be able to kill either 2 or 3 marine not in cover in cover maybe 2. For 181 points I tell my self why not just take a cheaper commander.

It's not a horrible choice but why take it over a commander the ghost keel is not a cheap unit and it's output is ok which make me put it in a non competitive state.

So for a smart player the ghost keel will if lucky get maybe 1 turn of shooting then be easily picked off. Even regular bolters fire or hot shot Las guns cam damage it. And assault cannons would eat it alive.

What makes it not so good is also the amount of re-roll to hit other armies have there are just better choices for the amount of points the ghost keel is.

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Glarblar
Shas'Saal
Posts: 266

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#4 » Aug 08 2017 07:27

Like the Riptide, the amount of points you pay in 'survivability' makes it too costly for the firepower it can give.

A great example is comparing its output with the FB/FC build with the Fusion commander.

What adds insult to injury for this model is that the FC is and heavy weapon AND when its drops down a mere 5/10 wounds it's BS degrades to a 5+, lower than your Shas'la firewarrior...

A great start to making this model competitive would be to take it off the Damage table.

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Bloodknife92
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 589

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#5 » Aug 08 2017 09:36

Ghostkeels have almost twice as many wounds as Commanders, one more Toughness, and 4" movement. And as for the Stealth Drones, they're really only there to protect the Ghostkeel. If your enemy wants to waste rounds of shooting on the Drones, then they're doing half of their job.
For the some 10-30 points difference, I think for the point of variety of units, they're worth it.
The days of goodly English is went
Ziss old dog still has a few tricks!

AN'SHI
Shas
Posts: 86

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#6 » Aug 08 2017 11:09

Bloodknife92 wrote:Ghostkeels have almost twice as many wounds as Commanders, one more Toughness, and 4" movement. And as for the Stealth Drones, they're really only there to protect the Ghostkeel. If your enemy wants to waste rounds of shooting on the Drones, then they're doing half of their job.
For the some 10-30 points difference, I think for the point of variety of units, they're worth it.


With regards to wounds i agree but they hit on 4+ and become worse as they take wounds assuming you give it target lock after 5 wounds it is hitting on a 5+

Those drones are real easy to kill a razor back for example target the drone with its storm bolters or even a regular troop unit of anything will knock them down pretty quick

T6 yes but no manta strike the commander is basically safe until you decide he is ready to do his thing also the no targeting a character unless it's the closest does well to. Taking a commander is just the better choice and can fill a similar role to a ghost keel.

The problem that the tau face unfortunately is the "elite" choices we have are just not up to par imo with the commander they remind me of that song anything you can do i can do better lol.

Maybe I'll move the ghost keel to mid tier

What's sad is there is basically 12 units that will probably not see game play in a competitive setting mind you even the mid tier units would probably not see that much competitive game play sadly.

Which brings up the point of to many tau units are just meh why would I take this or that if I can take a commander for less which makes me sad :(

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Bloodknife92
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 589

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#7 » Aug 08 2017 11:20

AN'SHI wrote:
Bloodknife92 wrote:Ghostkeels have almost twice as many wounds as Commanders, one more Toughness, and 4" movement. And as for the Stealth Drones, they're really only there to protect the Ghostkeel. If your enemy wants to waste rounds of shooting on the Drones, then they're doing half of their job.
For the some 10-30 points difference, I think for the point of variety of units, they're worth it.


With regards to wounds i agree but they hit on 4+ and become worse as they take wounds assuming you give it target lock after 5 wounds it is hitting on a 5+

Those drones are real easy to kill a razor back for example target the drone with its storm bolters or even a regular troop unit of anything will knock them down pretty quick

T6 yes but no manta strike the commander is basically safe until you decide he is ready to do his thing also the no targeting a character unless it's the closest does well to. Taking a commander is just the better choice and can fill a similar role to a ghost keel.

The problem that the tau face unfortunately is the "elite" choices we have are just not up to par imo with the commander they remind me of that song anything you can do i can do better lol.

Maybe I'll move the ghost keel to mid tier

What's sad is there is basically 12 units that will probably not see game play in a competitive setting mind you even the mid tier units would probably not see that much competitive game play sadly.

Which brings up the point of to many tau units are just meh why would I take this or that if I can take a commander for less which makes me sad :(

It saddens me too. I hate being forced to take choices from a handful of units if I even want to think of winning, or even staying on the table.
The days of goodly English is went
Ziss old dog still has a few tricks!

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AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 865

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#8 » Aug 09 2017 09:00

There are many units in the T'au index that shine brighter than others. The game is still evolving somewhat based on player feedback and tournament outcomes. I think the state of the game will be far more balanced and workable by Christmas than it has been in decades.

Our codex will also likely straighten things out for us in the long run. If I had to guess, I'd say that the codex released so far were the "easier" ones to do or the ones that GW had already polished well enough before 8th was released.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

AN'SHI
Shas
Posts: 86

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#9 » Aug 10 2017 02:27

AnonAmbientLight wrote:There are many units in the T'au index that shine brighter than others. The game is still evolving somewhat based on player feedback and tournament outcomes. I think the state of the game will be far more balanced and workable by Christmas than it has been in decades.

Our codex will also likely straighten things out for us in the long run. If I had to guess, I'd say that the codex released so far were the "easier" ones to do or the ones that GW had already polished well enough before 8th was released.


You bring up a very valid point. I guess my main concern is the TAU need a huge over haul not because they are not competitive because there are just to many units that would would never take barring a just for what ever game.

The riptide for example would be pretty good if he was I don't know 200 points less and what I think I will never understand is how our xv8, broadsides, riptides, ghostkeels, stealth suits, and probably all our planes hit on 4+. I would think they should have some fort of targeting array... Mind you this is just me venting :D

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#10 » Aug 10 2017 02:29

Yeah can't argue about that. The 7th T'au Codex was one of the best internally balanced Codices if we ignore the few broken formations. Now the internal balance is more than just off.

AN'SHI
Shas
Posts: 86

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#11 » Aug 10 2017 04:10

Panzer wrote:Yeah can't argue about that. The 7th T'au Codex was one of the best internally balanced Codices if we ignore the few broken formations. Now the internal balance is more than just off.


you know what though in 7th there was way to many broken formations which basically made formation balanced since almost all of them were just plain broken. Mind you I think 7th was a little over board I'm glad 8th came out just my opinion.

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relasine
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 94

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#12 » Aug 10 2017 04:59

After a few games, I gotta say that Markerlights just feel like garbage. It's not worth the effort to try to stack five tokens on a single target. Spreading them out always feels like the smarter move.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2188

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#13 » Aug 10 2017 06:01

relasine wrote:After a few games, I gotta say that Markerlights just feel like garbage. It's not worth the effort to try to stack five tokens on a single target. Spreading them out always feels like the smarter move.


Definitely. Instead, use Markerlights to fire Seeker Missiles and get those re-rolling 1s wherever you can. Never bring too many.

However whether or not you use it, it's good to have the ability to get 5 tokens available, if needed. You might come across a situation where (unfortunately) you just need to fire every gun you've got into a single enemy unit. I mean, maybe you'll do this once every 10 games.

Folklore
Shas
Posts: 22

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#14 » Aug 10 2017 06:17

I think the OP hits it right on the nose. T'au in my mind are all about having the right tool for the job. But in this edition the job is more like demolition project. Why bring your tool box when all you need is 10 sledgehammers (commanders). It feels this way for both our units and our weapons. there is little incentive to use other wargear when there are options that are simply better, in any situation.

As for markerlights, they are just in a sad state at the moment. Almost everything in our army has a laughable BS, so the obvious solution is to turn to markerlights... the only problem is our markerlight platforms can't hit the broadside of a barn, are super squishy and you need to sink significant portions of a list into them just to get the +1BS that most armies have baked in already. In my mind the design team simply wanted to make our army super reliant on synergy with markerlights and then made markerlights super unreliable.

Interesting that the few things that don't need markerlight support are the few things that are competitive...

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#15 » Aug 10 2017 11:08

Folklore wrote:I think the OP hits it right on the nose. T'au in my mind are all about having the right tool for the job. But in this edition the job is more like demolition project. Why bring your tool box when all you need is 10 sledgehammers (commanders). It feels this way for both our units and our weapons. there is little incentive to use other wargear when there are options that are simply better, in any situation.

To be fair it wasn't much different before either.
The "right tool for the job" thing was mostly for Crisis due their wargear options. Aside from them people just took Riptides or Broadsides because you didn't really need anything beside S7 spam except for some very few exceptions.

Commanders are just the new Riptides, that's all. ;)

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Atzilla
Shas'Saal
Posts: 87

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#16 » Aug 11 2017 04:47

Good tier list.

I'd put hammerheads to mediocre tier (esp. if assisted by longstrike)
Strike Teams are competitive though, don't know what you are doing wrong :D

AN'SHI
Shas
Posts: 86

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#17 » Aug 12 2017 06:44

Atzilla wrote:Good tier list.

I'd put hammerheads to mediocre tier (esp. if assisted by longstrike)
Strike Teams are competitive though, don't know what you are doing wrong :D


Hammer heads can't really be mid if they rely on a something to become mid tier ;) that being said they are a pretty expensive unit with little output

The strike team are meh I don't know why id take them over drones. The tau in this edition excel at mid range combat 18" so to me drones seem like the better choice.

The stealth team are one of those units that serve a good purpose and a portion of me wants to run a complete stealth army with commanders of course... stealth team but probably not the ghostkeel sadly

Updated the tier list sadly to the non competitive portion

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#18 » Aug 13 2017 11:31

AN'SHI wrote:
Atzilla wrote:Good tier list.

I'd put hammerheads to mediocre tier (esp. if assisted by longstrike)
Strike Teams are competitive though, don't know what you are doing wrong :D


"Especially" doesn't mean they rely on that to justify that classification. They are mid-tier without Longstrike and upper mid-tier with Longstrike (but still mid-tier).

AN'SHI wrote:The strike team are meh I don't know why id take them over drones. The tau in this edition excel at mid range combat 18" so to me drones seem like the better choice.

They are cheap-ish troops that shoot almost as good as Gun Drones and benefit easily from Cover in Ruins and Forests. At least after the Chapter Approves hit they'll be a top-tier choice.

However yesterday I noticed once more how we are most efficient within 18" range. Played a Cloak&Shadows mission and since most of my good weapons were at 18" or less anyway the mission actually helped me a lot to survive before hitting like a hammer.
Pathfinder with Rail Rifle obliterated a unit of Deathwatch with Terminator and Bike once they got too close (Rapid Fire Range) easily as well. It was quite fun because I used them to camp a backfield objective so they didn't do much most of the game but I baited him into melee with my Coldstar to get him into RF range....afterwards he regretted ignoring them for so long. :D

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