Competitive Tau

Use this area for all discussions of the "gaming" aspect of 40K/Tau.
Pottsey
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Re: Competitive Tau

Post#19 » Aug 14 2017 02:48

Firesight marksman are good inside a drone port with marker drones. That's 5 marker shots at BS 3. Krootox also dish out some nice damage with marker support and the Gunrig is perhaps our bet unit for pure damage as it can out damage Longstirke when it has marker tokens. Last game I did 15 wounds from it in 1 turn into the enemy deployment zone.

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Yojimbob
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Re: Competitive Tau

Post#20 » Aug 14 2017 09:43

Pottsey wrote:Firesight marksman are good inside a drone port with marker drones. That's 5 marker shots at BS 3. Krootox also dish out some nice damage with marker support and the Gunrig is perhaps our bet unit for pure damage as it can out damage Longstirke when it has marker tokens. Last game I did 15 wounds from it in 1 turn into the enemy deployment zone.


So you hit at BS4+ (50%) then you wounded your target on a 6 (8.33%) then you rolled ANOTHER 6 for damage (1.39%). Twice (0.69%). Then you rolled a 1 or 2 for mortal wound damage and then a 3 or a 4 (0.23%). I wouldn't count on that happening again for another 400 games. As in that was a fluke. Longstrike you expect to wound 81% of the time with ONE markerlight and the Gunrig woul dneed FIVE markerlights to wound 51% of the time per shot so it's still a coin flip if you do something with it. It's basically would you rather hit with a markerlight from darkstrider or fireblade or get two pathfinder shots. The arguement can be made for the Gunrig since it's cheap but I'd still rather have Longstrike who can do it while moving and buff other units and dump seeker missles and wound tanks with SMS on 4's.

AN'SHI
Shas
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Re: Competitive Tau

Post#21 » Aug 14 2017 02:48

Panzer wrote:
AN'SHI wrote:
Atzilla wrote:Good tier list.

I'd put hammerheads to mediocre tier (esp. if assisted by longstrike)
Strike Teams are competitive though, don't know what you are doing wrong :D


"Especially" doesn't mean they rely on that to justify that classification. They are mid-tier without Longstrike and upper mid-tier with Longstrike (but still mid-tier).

AN'SHI wrote:The strike team are meh I don't know why id take them over drones. The tau in this edition excel at mid range combat 18" so to me drones seem like the better choice.

They are cheap-ish troops that shoot almost as good as Gun Drones and benefit easily from Cover in Ruins and Forests. At least after the Chapter Approves hit they'll be a top-tier choice.

However yesterday I noticed once more how we are most efficient within 18" range. Played a Cloak&Shadows mission and since most of my good weapons were at 18" or less anyway the mission actually helped me a lot to survive before hitting like a hammer.
Pathfinder with Rail Rifle obliterated a unit of Deathwatch with Terminator and Bike once they got too close (Rapid Fire Range) easily as well. It was quite fun because I used them to camp a backfield objective so they didn't do much most of the game but I baited him into melee with my Coldstar to get him into RF range....afterwards he regretted ignoring them for so long. :D


I moved the hammer head to mid tier to be honest without long strike i don't think id run them.

I also moved the strike team as they are troop and fairly cheap I still think drones are the better choice but they do have some use.

Pottsey
Shas'Saal
Posts: 37

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#22 » Aug 15 2017 03:04

Yojimbob wrote:
Pottsey wrote:Firesight marksman are good inside a drone port with marker drones. That's 5 marker shots at BS 3. Krootox also dish out some nice damage with marker support and the Gunrig is perhaps our bet unit for pure damage as it can out damage Longstirke when it has marker tokens. Last game I did 15 wounds from it in 1 turn into the enemy deployment zone.


So you hit at BS4+ (50%) then you wounded your target on a 6 (8.33%) then you rolled ANOTHER 6 for damage (1.39%). Twice (0.69%). Then you rolled a 1 or 2 for mortal wound damage and then a 3 or a 4 (0.23%). I wouldn't count on that happening again for another 400 games. As in that was a fluke. Longstrike you expect to wound 81% of the time with ONE markerlight and the Gunrig woul dneed FIVE markerlights to wound 51% of the time per shot so it's still a coin flip if you do something with it. It's basically would you rather hit with a markerlight from darkstrider or fireblade or get two pathfinder shots. The arguement can be made for the Gunrig since it's cheap but I'd still rather have Longstrike who can do it while moving and buff other units and dump seeker missles and wound tanks with SMS on 4's.

You shouldn’t look at it per shot as you have 2 shots with the Gunrig against 1 shot from Longstrike. Due to twice as many shots on average you get as many hits as Longstrike only it’s cheaper and has the potential to do twice the damage over what longstrike can do. While its not as fast the Gunrig can move and shoot.

For me a Gunrig with pathfinder markers and pathfinder rails is potentially more effective than Longstrike. It’s that effective I now use 2 Gunrigs in some of my lists.

Saying that I can see how it’s not for everyone but it’s an unit many Tau players overlook. Just like the droneport which is also great for marker support.

EDIT: As for the Krootox why are they listed as uncompetitive? Pts to damage cost they are one of our better units and cheapest way and perhaps best way to spam S7, -1, D3 hits at range. The Rapid fire at 24” is pretty useful against deep strikers.

Pottsey
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Re: Competitive Tau

Post#23 » Aug 15 2017 03:18

For the basic Ethereal I would move that to non-competitive just because it’s a waste of points compared to Aun’Va who is 30pts more but even without the bodyguards has far better survivability, has bodyguards to further increase survivability, cast 2 powers per turn and has re-roll moral tests for all Tau units. As far as I can see he is always more effective than a basic Ethereal and so good for so little points there isn't any reason to take a basic Ethereal.

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Panzer
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Re: Competitive Tau

Post#24 » Aug 15 2017 03:22

I honestly don't see the point in using the Gunrig. Hitting on 5s with two high strength shots is terrible with the current Markerlight table.

Pottsey
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Posts: 37

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#25 » Aug 15 2017 03:55

Panzer wrote:I honestly don't see the point in using the Gunrig. Hitting on 5s with two high strength shots is terrible with the current Markerlight table.

With markers support the Gunrig hitting on 4+ with a 1's reroll will out damage Longstrike on average and you can buy the gunrig + Pathfinders for the same price as LongStrike. The rest of the army well also benefit from those markers.

The Gunrig is also an open top transport so it can help protect another unit. It does have its drawbacks but with support its a very effective unit for the pts cost. That and I can take 2 or more Gunrigs but only 1 Longstrike. 2 Gunrigs with marker support is very effective.

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Panzer
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Re: Competitive Tau

Post#26 » Aug 15 2017 04:13

That's a lot of efford to make it worthwhile not to mention that Markerlights won't last through the whole game normally anyway.
Also you're forgetting that Longstrike gets a +1 to-wound modifier against vehicles and monsters which lets him wound anything on a 2+ instead of the Gunrig's 3+ and also doubles the chances to cause additional mortal wounds against those (on a 5+ instead of a 6+). And all that without any Markerlight support needed.

Pottsey
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Re: Competitive Tau

Post#27 » Aug 15 2017 04:53

Panzer wrote:That's a lot of efford to make it worthwhile not to mention that Markerlights won't last through the whole game normally anyway.
Also you're forgetting that Longstrike gets a +1 to-wound modifier against vehicles and monsters which lets him wound anything on a 2+ instead of the Gunrig's 3+ and also doubles the chances to cause additional mortal wounds against those (on a 5+ instead of a 6+). And all that without any Markerlight support needed.

It’s not double the chance to cause mortal wounds for Longstrike as the Gunrig gets 2 shots that cause mortal wounds against 1 shot from Long strike. Every so often the Gunrig will roll double 6 causing twice as many mortal wounds as what Longstrike can do. The Gunrig can kill targets in 1 turn that Longstrike needs 2 turns to kill.

Take a typical transport like a Rino it takes Longstrike 2 turns to kill it at range. A gunrig can blow it up in 1 turn which is why I take 2 Gunrigs as knocking out transports a turn faster can have a large impact on the game. 2 Gunrigs is 81pts more then Longstrike but you get 4 high powered Railgun shots which on average works out far better in my experience.

As for the markers it’s not that much more work, it also benefits the rest of the army and you can buy a Gunrig + markers for the same cost as Longstrike. Normally I put a squad inside the Gunrig and have yet to lose them. Then have a few other markers scattered about in small squads further forward.

The markers they only have to last until turn 3 and you have done as many shots with the Gunrig in 3 turns as you can get out of Longstrike in a 6 turn game. 1 Gunrig can do double the damage of Longstrike and its worth using at times just for that. The gunrig can do up to 18 wounds at range and that can be a game changer. Although I do agree when you don't have marker support Longstrike work outs better, my main point is that the Gunrig is one of our good units that should be in the list.

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Panzer
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Re: Competitive Tau

Post#28 » Aug 15 2017 05:04

Double the chance per shot. That much should've been obvious. And considering that the Gunrig hits at best on 4+ re-rolling 1s while Longstrike can with less efford hit on 2+ re-rolling 1s I dare say it's still almost double the chance overall.

Sure a Gunrig CAN kill a target twice as fast as Longstrike, but how likely is that really? I mean 10 Kroot CAN deal 10 damage to a Landraider for way less points as well which is more than Longstrike can do with his Railgun but it's not very likely obviously.

I can see you are very convinced of the Gunrig, but you aren't telling us anything new and I just can't see it being that good.

Pottsey
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Re: Competitive Tau

Post#29 » Aug 15 2017 05:50

Panzer wrote:Double the chance per shot. That much should've been obvious. And considering that the Gunrig hits at best on 4+ re-rolling 1s while Longstrike can with less efford hit on 2+ re-rolling 1s I dare say it's still almost double the chance overall.

Sure a Gunrig CAN kill a target twice as fast as Longstrike, but how likely is that really? I mean 10 Kroot CAN deal 10 damage to a Landraider for way less points as well which is more than Longstrike can do with his Railgun but it's not very likely obviously.

I can see you are very convinced of the Gunrig, but you aren't telling us anything new and I just can't see it being that good.

The way I see it is a small chance to kill a target in 1 turn with a Gunrig is better than a 0% chance with Longstrike. With 2 shots you can expect at least 1 shot to hit per turn so you should manage to match Longstrikes damage on most turns with the odd turn of doing double Longstrikes damage. Getting 5 turns matching Longstrike with 1 turn double Longstrike is well worth it to me.

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Panzer
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Re: Competitive Tau

Post#30 » Aug 15 2017 06:12

Pottsey wrote:
Panzer wrote:Double the chance per shot. That much should've been obvious. And considering that the Gunrig hits at best on 4+ re-rolling 1s while Longstrike can with less efford hit on 2+ re-rolling 1s I dare say it's still almost double the chance overall.

Sure a Gunrig CAN kill a target twice as fast as Longstrike, but how likely is that really? I mean 10 Kroot CAN deal 10 damage to a Landraider for way less points as well which is more than Longstrike can do with his Railgun but it's not very likely obviously.

I can see you are very convinced of the Gunrig, but you aren't telling us anything new and I just can't see it being that good.

The way I see it is a small chance to kill a target in 1 turn with a Gunrig is better than a 0% chance with Longstrike. With 2 shots you can expect at least 1 shot to hit per turn so you should manage to match Longstrikes damage on most turns with the odd turn of doing double Longstrikes damage. Getting 5 turns matching Longstrike with 1 turn double Longstrike is well worth it to me.

I think you are really overestimating them.

Gunrig vs Longstrike
Gunrig with 5 ML on target, Longstrike with 1 ML on target
hits: 1.167 vs 0.912
wounds vs T6-9: 0.78 vs 0.76

So the raw expected number of wounds is pretty much the same. The differences are that Longstrike needs only 1 Markerlight hit to achieve that while the Gunrigs need 5. Longstrike is also FAR more reliable to make that one hit with his BS2+ compared to the BS4+ of the Gunrigs + Markerlights. Plus Longstrikes chance to deal Mortal wounds is in fact almost twice as high as the Gunrigs chance.
The odd chance to hit both Gunrig shots doesn't really match the reliability of Longstrike and being able to deal Mortal wounds on 5+ instead of 6+.
Oh and not to forget that he has 8 S5 shots as well (which basically turn into S9 shots vs T8 Monsters/Vehicles).
On top of that he also lets nearby Hammerheads hit on 2+ as well increasing his utility even further so even if you wanted more Railguns after including Longstrike I'd say getting more Hammerheads is the better choice.

Also not to forget that Longstrike basically has BS1+ so he ignores the first -1 to-hit modifier. So he can shoot at flyer with BS2+ still while Gunrigs would hit flyer at BS5+ (if you actually managed to get 5 ML on it which would hit on 5+ as well). And not just flyer, Raven Guard and Alpha Legion have a Ghostkeel modifier practically their whole army and there are other units who have similar effects.

EDIT: typos
Last edited by Panzer on Aug 15 2017 06:45, edited 1 time in total.

Pottsey
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Re: Competitive Tau

Post#31 » Aug 15 2017 06:33

Panzer wrote:
Pottsey wrote:
Panzer wrote:Double the chance per shot. That much should've been obvious. And considering that the Gunrig hits at best on 4+ re-rolling 1s while Longstrike can with less efford hit on 2+ re-rolling 1s I dare say it's still almost double the chance overall.

Sure a Gunrig CAN kill a target twice as fast as Longstrike, but how likely is that really? I mean 10 Kroot CAN deal 10 damage to a Landraider for way less points as well which is more than Longstrike can do with his Railgun but it's not very likely obviously.

I can see you are very convinced of the Gunrig, but you aren't telling us anything new and I just can't see it being that good.

The way I see it is a small chance to kill a target in 1 turn with a Gunrig is better than a 0% chance with Longstrike. With 2 shots you can expect at least 1 shot to hit per turn so you should manage to match Longstrikes damage on most turns with the odd turn of doing double Longstrikes damage. Getting 5 turns matching Longstrike with 1 turn double Longstrike is well worth it to me.

I think you are really overestimating them.

2 Gunrigs vs 1 Longstrike
Gunrigs with 5 ML on target, Longstrike with 1 ML on target
hits: 1.167 vs 0.912
wounds vs T6-9: 0.78 vs 0.76

So the raw expected number of wounds is pretty much the same. The differences are that Longstrike needs only 1 Markerlight hit to achieve that while the Gunrigs need 5. Longstrike is also FAR more reliable to make that one hit with his BS2+ compared to the BS4+ of the Gunrigs + Markerlights. Plus Longstrikes chance to deal Mortal wounds is in fact almost twice as high as the Gunrigs chance.
The odd chance to hit both Gunrig shots doesn't really match the reliability of Longstrike and being able to deal Mortal wounds on 5+ instead of 6+.
Oh and not to forget that he has 8 S5 shots as well (which basically turn into S9 shots vs T8 Monsters/Vehicles).
On top of that he also lets nearby Hammerheads hit on 2+ as well increasing his utility even further so even if you wanted more Railguns after including Longstrike I'd say getting more Hammerheads is the better choice.

Also not to forget that Longstrike basically has BS1+ so he ignores the first -1 to-hit modifier. So he can shoot at flyer with BS2+ still while Gunrigs would hit flyer at BS5+ (if you actually managed to get 5 ML on it which would hit on 5+ as well). And not just flyer, Raven Guard and Alpha Legion have a Ghostkeel modifier practically their whole army and there are other units who have similar effects.


Well I don’t agree as when I looked at the numbers and from experience of using them the Gunrigs spike damage more than makes up for the reliability of Longstrike hits. Gunrigs have killed a number of targets in 1 turn that Longstrike just cannot do and that has had a big impact on my games. When looking at 10+ wound targets the Gunrigs can kill faster. In my last game I killed a major target on turn 1 which is impossible with Longstrike.

Most of the time I prefer 2 gunrigs over 1 Longstrike. Those 4 railgun shots outperform Longstirkes 1 .
The points don’t match up perfectly but you can have 3 Gunrigs for the price of Longstrike + Hammerhead with 4 seekers. Personally I would prefer those 6 railgun shots over 2 tank railgun shots and 4 seekers.

I do agree there are situations where Longstrike + hammerhead works better but with the cheap price, damage output, open top transport ability I believe the Gun rigs belong in the list in the first post.

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Panzer
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Re: Competitive Tau

Post#32 » Aug 15 2017 06:44

Well can't argue against lucky dice I guess lol

Pottsey
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Re: Competitive Tau

Post#33 » Aug 15 2017 06:55

Panzer wrote:Well can't argue against lucky dice I guess lol

Call it luck if you want but the fact is Gunrigs have a wider damage spectrum that is twice as high as longstrike allowing you to kill more 10+ wound targets in 1 turn then Longstrike which is why I rate them so highly. It’s not going happen every turn but when it does happen it can be a game changer. On an average turn my Gunrigs are matching longstrike but once every so often they do double damage which is why I prefer them. EDIT: Plus I can only take 1 longstrike but 2 or 3 Gunrigs.

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Panzer
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Re: Competitive Tau

Post#34 » Aug 15 2017 07:20

Pottsey wrote:
Panzer wrote:Well can't argue against lucky dice I guess lol

Call it luck if you want but the fact is Gunrigs have a wider damage spectrum that is twice as high as longstrike allowing you to kill more 10+ wound targets in 1 turn then Longstrike which is why I rate them so highly. It’s not going happen every turn but when it does happen it can be a game changer. On an average turn my Gunrigs are matching longstrike but once every so often they do double damage which is why I prefer them. EDIT: Plus I can only take 1 longstrike but 2 or 3 Gunrigs.

Nobody denied that they have the potential to do so. I'm just arguing how likely it is to actually have that happen. As I tried to clarify with the Kroot example.
By your logic Kroot are better than Longstrike as well because for the same points as Longstrike with Railgun+SMS you could just get 36 Kroot who could potentially do 36 damage on a Landraider. It's just extremely unlikely to happen.

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Yojimbob
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Re: Competitive Tau

Post#35 » Aug 15 2017 07:50

Panzer wrote:
Pottsey wrote:
Panzer wrote:Double the chance per shot. That much should've been obvious. And considering that the Gunrig hits at best on 4+ re-rolling 1s while Longstrike can with less efford hit on 2+ re-rolling 1s I dare say it's still almost double the chance overall.

Sure a Gunrig CAN kill a target twice as fast as Longstrike, but how likely is that really? I mean 10 Kroot CAN deal 10 damage to a Landraider for way less points as well which is more than Longstrike can do with his Railgun but it's not very likely obviously.

I can see you are very convinced of the Gunrig, but you aren't telling us anything new and I just can't see it being that good.

The way I see it is a small chance to kill a target in 1 turn with a Gunrig is better than a 0% chance with Longstrike. With 2 shots you can expect at least 1 shot to hit per turn so you should manage to match Longstrikes damage on most turns with the odd turn of doing double Longstrikes damage. Getting 5 turns matching Longstrike with 1 turn double Longstrike is well worth it to me.

I think you are really overestimating them.

Gunrig vs Longstrike
Gunrig with 5 ML on target, Longstrike with 1 ML on target
hits: 1.167 vs 0.912
wounds vs T6-9: 0.78 vs 0.76

So the raw expected number of wounds is pretty much the same. The differences are that Longstrike needs only 1 Markerlight hit to achieve that while the Gunrigs need 5. Longstrike is also FAR more reliable to make that one hit with his BS2+ compared to the BS4+ of the Gunrigs + Markerlights. Plus Longstrikes chance to deal Mortal wounds is in fact almost twice as high as the Gunrigs chance.
The odd chance to hit both Gunrig shots doesn't really match the reliability of Longstrike and being able to deal Mortal wounds on 5+ instead of 6+.
Oh and not to forget that he has 8 S5 shots as well (which basically turn into S9 shots vs T8 Monsters/Vehicles).
On top of that he also lets nearby Hammerheads hit on 2+ as well increasing his utility even further so even if you wanted more Railguns after including Longstrike I'd say getting more Hammerheads is the better choice.

Also not to forget that Longstrike basically has BS1+ so he ignores the first -1 to-hit modifier. So he can shoot at flyer with BS2+ still while Gunrigs would hit flyer at BS5+ (if you actually managed to get 5 ML on it which would hit on 5+ as well). And not just flyer, Raven Guard and Alpha Legion have a Ghostkeel modifier practically their whole army and there are other units who have similar effects.

EDIT: typos

Clearly he doesn't like math or odds because he's clearly not playing with them in mind. I think this is all for nothing. Hopefully others will see that the gunrig is a chancy thing to play in it's current form and needs far more support than other of the same choices. Use at your own peril.

Antao
Shas'Saal
Posts: 46

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#36 » Aug 15 2017 08:25

Guard Ork Marine Primaris Meph Pirhana Harpy Dread Russ LR
1.13 1.13 1.13 1.81 2.57 3.16 2.59 2.59 2.59 2.21

Points, 207


Guard Ork Marine Primaris Meph Pirhana Harpy Dread Russ LR
1.36 1.36 1.36 2.17 3.09 3.79 3.11 3.11 3.11 2.66

Points, 219

Rough Maths using the 3++ weapons spreadsheet. Expected wounds.

Top set is Longstrike w/ Gun drones + 2 Pathfinders.
Bottom Set is GunRig w/ 10 Pathfinders.

I used enough pathfinders to get relevant marker-light bonuses and added their points into the overall cost of the "unit".

Longstrike expected wounds is discounting gun drones and tank ace (wasn't built into the spreadsheet). Assuming 1 Markerlight hit on target. (BS2+ Reroll 1s) (so the damage should be a little higher from Tank ace).

Gunrig is assuming 5 marker-light hits on target from accompanying pathfinders (BS4+ Reroll 1s).

Obviously Math Hammer is not really worth all that much, and their are things to account for (Tank Ace, what are the 10 pathfinders worth to you for the same points as longstrike in the gunrig) but I'd say from a rough mock-up, it's worth considering at least. Sadly I've found railguns to be wildly inconsistent either way. So this argument basically can be boiled down to, if possible, just take a QFC instead of either of the above.

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