Competitive Tau

Use this area for all discussions of the "gaming" aspect of 40K/Tau.
Pottsey
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Posts: 44

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#37 » Aug 15 2017 08:35

Yojimbob wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Pottsey wrote:The way I see it is a small chance to kill a target in 1 turn with a Gunrig is better than a 0% chance with Longstrike. With 2 shots you can expect at least 1 shot to hit per turn so you should manage to match Longstrikes damage on most turns with the odd turn of doing double Longstrikes damage. Getting 5 turns matching Longstrike with 1 turn double Longstrike is well worth it to me.

I think you are really overestimating them.

Gunrig vs Longstrike
Gunrig with 5 ML on target, Longstrike with 1 ML on target
hits: 1.167 vs 0.912
wounds vs T6-9: 0.78 vs 0.76

So the raw expected number of wounds is pretty much the same. The differences are that Longstrike needs only 1 Markerlight hit to achieve that while the Gunrigs need 5. Longstrike is also FAR more reliable to make that one hit with his BS2+ compared to the BS4+ of the Gunrigs + Markerlights. Plus Longstrikes chance to deal Mortal wounds is in fact almost twice as high as the Gunrigs chance.
The odd chance to hit both Gunrig shots doesn't really match the reliability of Longstrike and being able to deal Mortal wounds on 5+ instead of 6+.
Oh and not to forget that he has 8 S5 shots as well (which basically turn into S9 shots vs T8 Monsters/Vehicles).
On top of that he also lets nearby Hammerheads hit on 2+ as well increasing his utility even further so even if you wanted more Railguns after including Longstrike I'd say getting more Hammerheads is the better choice.

Also not to forget that Longstrike basically has BS1+ so he ignores the first -1 to-hit modifier. So he can shoot at flyer with BS2+ still while Gunrigs would hit flyer at BS5+ (if you actually managed to get 5 ML on it which would hit on 5+ as well). And not just flyer, Raven Guard and Alpha Legion have a Ghostkeel modifier practically their whole army and there are other units who have similar effects.

EDIT: typos

Clearly he doesn't like math or odds because he's clearly not playing with them in mind. I think this is all for nothing. Hopefully others will see that the gunrig is a chancy thing to play in it's current form and needs far more support than other of the same choices. Use at your own peril.

That’s wrong I am taking into account the maths and odds. On an average turn my Gunrig is doing the same damage as Longstrike then once every so often the Gunrig does twice the damage of Longstrike. I tend to have 2 gunrigs in my list so I get better damage over an average game out of them then longstrike.

For 77pts more than longstike I am getting 4 heavy railgun shots which have better average and better spike damage then Longstike when factoring in targets with marker tokens on. On top of that I have open topped protection for my other units. Its how I keep my Rail Rifles alive longer. With 2 Gunrigs I expect to see 1 shot kills a lot more then Longstrike would. Anyway I agree there are situations where Longstrike is better I am just trying to point out how effective Gunrigs can be and they should be in the list of units to consider using.

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Panzer
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Posts: 3540

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#38 » Aug 15 2017 08:47

Pottsey wrote:On an average turn my Gunrig is doing the same damage as Longstrike then once every so often the Gunrig does twice the damage of Longstrike. I tend to have 2 gunrigs in my list so I get better damage over an average game out of them then longstrike.

For 77pts more than longstike I am getting 4 heavy railgun shots which have better average and better spike damage then Longstike when factoring in targets with marker tokens on. On top of that I have open topped protection for my other units. Its how I keep my Rail Rifles alive longer. With 2 Gunrigs I expect to see 1 shot kills a lot more then Longstrike would. Anyway I agree there are situations where Longstrike is better I am just trying to point out how effective Gunrigs can be and they should be in the list of units to consider using.

You see, once very so often your Gunrig doesn't hit the broadside of a barn as well though. That's the thing with having a ~50% chance to hit. It equals out eventually. Sometimes you shoot the heck out of the enemy but just as often you don't do anything that turn. The spike goes in both directions.
Hence why I said Longstrike is more reliable with his BS1+ and re-rolling 1s from a single ML.

Considering how many to-hit modifier there are in the game doesn't exactly help the Gunrig either.

Gunrig could very well be in the mid-tier list but considering how much support it needs and how unreliable it is compared to Longstrike I wouldn't put it into top-tier.

Pottsey
Shas'Saal
Posts: 44

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#39 » Aug 15 2017 09:18

Panzer wrote:
Pottsey wrote:On an average turn my Gunrig is doing the same damage as Longstrike then once every so often the Gunrig does twice the damage of Longstrike. I tend to have 2 gunrigs in my list so I get better damage over an average game out of them then longstrike.

For 77pts more than longstike I am getting 4 heavy railgun shots which have better average and better spike damage then Longstike when factoring in targets with marker tokens on. On top of that I have open topped protection for my other units. Its how I keep my Rail Rifles alive longer. With 2 Gunrigs I expect to see 1 shot kills a lot more then Longstrike would. Anyway I agree there are situations where Longstrike is better I am just trying to point out how effective Gunrigs can be and they should be in the list of units to consider using.

You see, once very so often your Gunrig doesn't hit the broadside of a barn as well though. That's the thing with having a ~50% chance to hit. It equals out eventually. Sometimes you shoot the heck out of the enemy but just as often you don't do anything that turn. The spike goes in both directions.
Hence why I said Longstrike is more reliable with his BS1+ and re-rolling 1s from a single ML.

Considering how many to-hit modifier there are in the game doesn't exactly help the Gunrig either.

Gunrig could very well be in the mid-tier list but considering how much support it needs and how unreliable it is compared to Longstrike I wouldn't put it into top-tier.

Isnt it 67% chance to hit per shot which is why with 2 shots it doesn’t equal out but averages out better and spikes better and that’s just for 1 gunrig. For only a little more pts you can get 4 shots against Longstrikes 1.

6 gunrig shots is 417 pts. 3 tank shots is 533pts. (long +2 hammers) . For the price of 3 tanks I can take 3 gunrigs and 3 squads of pathfinders which benefit the rest of my army and more then enough spare for if I lose some. 6 shots at 67% chance to hit should out damage longstrike with 2 hammerheads. EDIT: I role the markers 1 at time so once I get 5 I switch to carbines with range extend for 24" range.

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Yojimbob
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Posts: 376

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#40 » Aug 15 2017 09:30

Pottsey wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Pottsey wrote:On an average turn my Gunrig is doing the same damage as Longstrike then once every so often the Gunrig does twice the damage of Longstrike. I tend to have 2 gunrigs in my list so I get better damage over an average game out of them then longstrike.

For 77pts more than longstike I am getting 4 heavy railgun shots which have better average and better spike damage then Longstike when factoring in targets with marker tokens on. On top of that I have open topped protection for my other units. Its how I keep my Rail Rifles alive longer. With 2 Gunrigs I expect to see 1 shot kills a lot more then Longstrike would. Anyway I agree there are situations where Longstrike is better I am just trying to point out how effective Gunrigs can be and they should be in the list of units to consider using.

You see, once very so often your Gunrig doesn't hit the broadside of a barn as well though. That's the thing with having a ~50% chance to hit. It equals out eventually. Sometimes you shoot the heck out of the enemy but just as often you don't do anything that turn. The spike goes in both directions.
Hence why I said Longstrike is more reliable with his BS1+ and re-rolling 1s from a single ML.

Considering how many to-hit modifier there are in the game doesn't exactly help the Gunrig either.

Gunrig could very well be in the mid-tier list but considering how much support it needs and how unreliable it is compared to Longstrike I wouldn't put it into top-tier.

Isnt it 67% chance to hit per shot which is why with 2 shots it doesn’t equal out but averages out better and spikes better and that’s just for 1 gunrig. For only a little more pts you can get 4 shots against Longstrikes 1.

6 gunrig shots is 417 pts. 3 tank shots is 533pts. (long +2 hammers) . For the price of 3 tanks I can take 3 gunrigs and 3 squads of pathfinders which benefit the rest of my army and more then enough spare for if I lose some. 6 shots at 67% chance to hit should out damage longstrike with 2 hammerheads. EDIT: I role the markers 1 at time so once I get 5 I switch to carbines with range extend for 24" range.

This is covered in another thread but I'm fairly certain you cannot declare you are shooting both your markerlight and carbine since anyone who shoots a markerlight cannot fire their carbine and vice versa. If it's not against RAW it's definitely against RAI. Single rolling is bad enough but single rolling in that manner is fairly uncool in my opinion.

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Panzer
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Posts: 3540

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#41 » Aug 15 2017 09:38

Yeah you have to declare which weapons shoot at which targets before you start rolling so if you want to shoot with Carbines that turn you would have to risk not getting enough Markerlights.

Pottsey
Shas'Saal
Posts: 44

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#42 » Aug 15 2017 09:46

Panzer wrote:Yeah you have to declare which weapons shoot at which targets before you start rolling so if you want to shoot with Carbines that turn you would have to risk not getting enough Markerlights.

That's why they are split over 3 squads. A few carbines get wasted but it more flexible like that.

AN'SHI
Shas
Posts: 86

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#43 » Aug 15 2017 03:01

I agree the gun rigs are actually a pretty good unit not sure why their BS doesn't get better if someone is riding it.

Mathematically liong strike is a little better, that being said he is not able to provide the same potential output that having 2 rails guns though with luck involved can do.

The max output from longstrike rail gun is potentially 9 assuming he rolls a 6 to wound and rolls a 6 for damage and a 5/6 for the mortal wound portion.

The max output of a gunrig is is potentially 18 assuming it rolls a 6 to wound on both and rolls a 6 for damage and a 5/6 for the mortal wound portion.

So max output the gun rig takes it though you need to get real and I mean REAL lucky.

That being said I think the gun rid is more of an upper mid tier its 139 pts of 2 shots hitting on 5 (so no super reliable) and can only take 1 unit (not characters) in it. It can take up to 10 different character assuming you have no other unit in the gun rig. I still feel it is a viable choice however.... why not just take a commander :P

Meatstick
Shas'Saal
Posts: 8

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#44 » Aug 16 2017 04:02

I think Pottsey has a valid point about gunrigs though. Being an avid Mech warrior online player who loves structural analysis the gunrig is far superior compared to a hammerhead. It is lower to the ground easy to gain cover but also has a tall weapon platform making it VERY good at peaking over cliffs and units to hit targets..

Let's not forget it is a transport which is very good especially considering your pathfinders can bail out and you can use the gunrig as a massive bubble wrap block in late game when most your opponents armor is dead.

I like the gunrig idea and I think I have been enlightened enough to say I would try it!

Currently I find the hammerhead failing to do what it was meant to do, anti tank. It's far to all rounded unless you have forgeworld variants.

Pottsey
Shas'Saal
Posts: 44

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#45 » Aug 16 2017 09:43

Meatstick wrote:I think Pottsey has a valid point about gunrigs though. Being an avid Mech warrior online player who loves structural analysis the gunrig is far superior compared to a hammerhead. It is lower to the ground easy to gain cover but also has a tall weapon platform making it VERY good at peaking over cliffs and units to hit targets..

Let's not forget it is a transport which is very good especially considering your pathfinders can bail out and you can use the gunrig as a massive bubble wrap block in late game when most your opponents armor is dead.

I like the gunrig idea and I think I have been enlightened enough to say I would try it!

Currently I find the hammerhead failing to do what it was meant to do, anti tank. It's far to all rounded unless you have forgeworld variants.

It’s a little cheesy but as I understand the rules the Pathfinders being embarked can draw line of site from the top tall turret, while the main hull is behind cover.

Antao
Shas'Saal
Posts: 46

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#46 » Aug 16 2017 11:30

Pottsey wrote:It’s a little cheesy but as I understand the rules the Pathfinders being embarked can draw line of site from the top tall turret, while the main hull is behind cover.


While I agree with you it feels wrong, the rules as written seem to support this (although 8th has a number of LOS rules that leave me saying "that doesn't make sense, but them's the rules". )

Pottsey
Shas'Saal
Posts: 44

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#47 » Aug 16 2017 11:38

Yes it does feel wrong. So far there are only two areas I am not keen on in 8th which is the lack of blast markers and the LOS/Cover rules. Which I feel have been over streamlined. Apart from that 8th is going great even as Tau.

Antao
Shas'Saal
Posts: 46

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#48 » Aug 16 2017 11:44

Pottsey wrote:Yes it does feel wrong. So far there are only two areas I am not keen on in 8th which is the lack of blast markers and the LOS/Cover rules. Which I feel have been over streamlined. Apart from that 8th is going great even as Tau.


I agree with you on both points. They didn't do a good job translating large blast weapons to the new edition. Blast weapons and flamers hurt far more previously. (Battle cannons/earth shakers now shoot at me and I don't really care), but the vehicle/monster cover rules really bother me. Oh you can only see 2% of that vehicle? It's not actually in a piece of area terrain? No cover. Such is life though. Either way, back to the main point being discussed the last few posts. Gunrig -Ultra competitive? Not really. Useable? - Certainly.

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Kiran Tau
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Posts: 28

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#49 » Aug 17 2017 05:16

I Really like this discussion so far... but (I don't have the index at hand, only battlescribe) the gunrig has to fire at the closest enemy, which makes it useablity drop a lot...
Shas'el Au'taal Elan'B (Strong Shepherd)

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Panzer
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Posts: 3540

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#50 » Aug 17 2017 05:21

Kiran Tau wrote:I Really like this discussion so far... but (I don't have the index at hand, only battlescribe) the gunrig has to fire at the closest enemy, which makes it useablity drop a lot...

It only has to fire at the closest target if it's unmanned.
Never join rules discussions with just Battlescribe knowledge. ^^

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Kiran Tau
Shas'Saal
Posts: 28

Re: Competitive Tau

Post#51 » Aug 17 2017 07:46

Panzer wrote:
Kiran Tau wrote:I Really like this discussion so far... but (I don't have the index at hand, only battlescribe) the gunrig has to fire at the closest enemy, which makes it useablity drop a lot...

It only has to fire at the closest target if it's unmanned.
Never join rules discussions with just Battlescribe knowledge. ^^


Thank you Panzer!!... i totally missed that part eventhough it is on BS :)
Shas'el Au'taal Elan'B (Strong Shepherd)

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