Fire warriors vs guardsmen are they too cheap?

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Nymphomanius
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Fire warriors vs guardsmen are they too cheap?

Post#1 » Sep 05 2017 08:04

So I play guard and tau (or astra millitarum now) and now at half the cost of a firewarrior guardsmen are ridiculously cheap. Or we are ridiculously expensive.

At 12" away unassisted 10 guardsmen will kill 2.5 firewarrior a turn, who in turn would only kill 2.1 guardsmen a turn for the same cost, yes model per model FW are much better but it would take 5 turns at close range to kill what would take the guardsmen 2 to kill.

My conclusion is does anyone else think firewarriors should be 7 points each? 6 would be too cheap imho.

Point for point guardsmen will score more wounds vs T3,5 and 10+ and perform the same vs T4, + 6-9

Rathstar
Shas'La
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Re: Fire warriors vs guardsmen are they too cheap?

Post#2 » Sep 05 2017 11:56

Guard have one of (if not the) best cheap infantry troops. Crunching some numbers the stats seem even worse to me (and that's just looking at infantry squads with no weapon upgrades let a lone conscripts).

Firepower output against various targets was in the guardsmen favour in all situations apart from MEQ where Fire Warriors and Guardsmen were roughly equal. In taking damage the Guardsmen were again best, losing slightly more models, but losing less points of models against all weapons regardless of AP.

When it comes to buffing the infantry the Guard appear to have better and cheaper options as well; For morale we have Commissairs vs Ethereals and for extra shooting damage there is Officer's First Rank, Second Rank Fire order vs Cadre Fireblade.

It appears that a Guard gunline with Character buffs is just plain better than a Fire Warrior gunline with Character buffs. Not surprising that we see Guard Infantry in their tournament winning lists and not many Fire Warriors in Tau lists that do well in tournaments.

Hopefully some of this will be rectified in the upcoming Guard codex, but until then I agree with you and we Guard will be hard match up for those of us that like to use Fire Warriors. Until they we must use the advantages we have:
1) We can compliment the gunline with effective deepstrike units, eg. crisis suits protected by gun drones
2) We are faster (with battlesuits, drones, and even kroot) so should aim to dominate the mid field and maelstrom points
3) We have range, particularly with our fire warriors, we fire first at 30", they advance and fire at 24", we call mont'ka with Ethereal reroll Assault moves, and enter 15" rapid fire range along with gun drone range - being more points efficient means nothing when most of the enemy infantry is dead :)

You'll be more familiar with Guard than I am, what tactics can suggest we use against the points efficient Guard ?

Rathstar

Nymphomanius
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Re: Fire warriors vs guardsmen are they too cheap?

Post#3 » Sep 05 2017 01:14

Well in response to that you kinda drove my point even further, although there are ways to deal with guard the best units to do so are currently unused.

Sniper drones are so important vs guard because the characters make the army if can stop the orders coming through it halves the firepower of guardsmen, if the Commander has a squad with him to take bullets you can focus some firewarrior shooting on them as no protection using character status then snipe the Commander, but with sniper drones as they currently exist that's easier said than done.

I have recently taken to taking the 1CP hit to take a lone Xv8 with triple flamers to drop behind enemy heavy weapons teams of all varieties for fun, they either have to target a bunch of shooting at him to get rid of him or risk 3D6 str4 hits next turn and vs guard you can even try your hand at the charge then fall back and flamers ahoy next turn ;)

And as everyone knows quad Fusion Commander for those pesky artillery or tanks.

On the same note the manticore puts our skyray to shame, costs almost 40 points less and instead of having 4 missiles that each do 1 mortal wound, has 4 rockets that each do 2D6 Str 10 Ap -2 D3 wounds that's a potential of 144 wounds vs 4!!!!

Why does everything we have cost so much, why is a missile pod 50% more than an autocannon? Why do our plasma guns costs more but are weaker and can't overcharge?

And why oh why does a Broadside with HRR+ plasma guns costs more than a lemun Russian battle tank even more so with twin SMS.

Best advice I can give vs guard? Ignore the infantry as much as you can, 120 conscripts is terrifying I know but if you are able to take out the commissar and Commander first a few burst cannons will send em packing.

Also if you can afford them XV9's I have 3 with DBBC and ATS that absolutely excel and ruining infantrys day

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nic
Kroot'La
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Re: Fire warriors vs guardsmen are they too cheap?

Post#4 » Sep 05 2017 02:23

Nymphomanius wrote:

Sniper drones are so important vs guard because the characters make the army if can stop the orders coming through it halves the firepower of guardsmen, if the Commander has a squad with him to take bullets you can focus some firewarrior shooting on them as no protection using character status then snipe the Commander, but with sniper drones as they currently exist that's easier said than done.



Reading about the dominant lists at Nova (Conscript/Commissar AM and Malefic Lord mortal wound spam) is beginning to make me think that Sniper Drones are a far more viable competitive choice than I previously thought. If the top lists are relying on cheap and rather squishy characters who use the Character keyword to keep them alive then a bunch of long ranged BS 3+ S5 shooting[1] might actually be what you need to counter them.

I still think they are deeply disappointing against more typical mid-table lists but perhaps those are not the ones players should be concerning themselves with if they have any intention to win.

As for Guardsmen, they would be prime units in any index other than what is pretty much the most under-costed one out there. They would be great if other options such as Conscripts and Elysian/Tempestus Squads were not even better. None of our basic infantry can really compete head-to-head but they generally do have some compensating factor such as range that we can leverage with good play.

[1] With Firesight Marksman and a Drone Controller nearby.

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Panzer
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Re: Fire warriors vs guardsmen are they too cheap?

Post#5 » Sep 05 2017 02:53

Well it could maybe help against Conscript spam (though I'm not so sure about that either) but then you'd have spend a lot of points to 'counter' one specific list while having something useless against CSM or C:SM etc.
It's not like we are good enough to afford spending a few hundred points to counter just one list.

And when I say counter, keep in mind that AM also has a lot of artillery and will kill the Sniper Drones rather quickly while we'd need an average of 18 shots at BS3+ to kill a single Lord Commissar.
18 shots at BS3+ means either a unit of 9 Drones within 24" of him (unlikely) or two units of 9. Plus the Marksman and a random Drone Controller of course.
So:
2x9 Sniper Drones = 324p (2 Heavy Support slots)
+
Marksman = 24p (1 Elite slot)
=
348p to kill a 55p Character in one turn when the rolls are average and there are no to-hit modifier. Plus the Drone Controller in some unit (probably a MP Commander I'd say).

That's a REALLY weak tactic. Those 348+ points won't help you against any other army.
You could easily take a unit of Flamer Crisis + Shield Drones or Breacher + Devilfish or two Coldstar Commander for that instead. Or 43 Gun-/Shield-Drones, Strike Teams or Pathfinder even. :D


I agree that something like the Commissar is supposed to be the ideal target for something like Sniper Drones. The reality is a bit different unfortunately.

Conscripts are extremely cheap, yes. Maybe a bit too cheap. But only because the Commissar can make them immune to battleshock tests and we don't really have a way to remove one or more Commissars reliably with our Index currently. At least not while he is hiding inside of his pet blobs.

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nic
Kroot'La
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Re: Fire warriors vs guardsmen are they too cheap?

Post#6 » Sep 05 2017 04:47

Panzer wrote:Well it could maybe help against Conscript spam (though I'm not so sure about that either) but then you'd have spend a lot of points to 'counter' one specific list while having something useless against CSM or C:SM etc.
It's not like we are good enough to afford spending a few hundred points to counter just one list.

And when I say counter, keep in mind that AM also has a lot of artillery and will kill the Sniper Drones rather quickly while we'd need an average of 18 shots at BS3+ to kill a single Lord Commissar.
18 shots at BS3+ means either a unit of 9 Drones within 24" of him (unlikely) or two units of 9. Plus the Marksman and a random Drone Controller of course.
So:
2x9 Sniper Drones = 324p (2 Heavy Support slots)
+
Marksman = 24p (1 Elite slot)
=
348p to kill a 55p Character in one turn when the rolls are average and there are no to-hit modifier. Plus the Drone Controller in some unit (probably a MP Commander I'd say).

That's a REALLY weak tactic. Those 348+ points won't help you against any other army.
You could easily take a unit of Flamer Crisis + Shield Drones or Breacher + Devilfish or two Coldstar Commander for that instead. Or 43 Gun-/Shield-Drones, Strike Teams or Pathfinder even. :D


I agree that something like the Commissar is supposed to be the ideal target for something like Sniper Drones. The reality is a bit different unfortunately.

Conscripts are extremely cheap, yes. Maybe a bit too cheap. But only because the Commissar can make them immune to battleshock tests and we don't really have a way to remove one or more Commissars reliably with our Index currently. At least not while he is hiding inside of his pet blobs.


The regular commissar does die a little easier and was the choice in the Nova winning list - so there is that. Personally I would be using the full 32" rapid-fire threat range of the Drones if at all possible. I would also be less than downhearted if by doing so I forced the artillery to fire at BS -1 or even if I forced the Conscripts out of position in an attempt to close range to deal with the drone threat as that might give me a position to drop something a bit deadlier behind them to get work done.

The issue with all those alternatives for the points is that none of them get past the chaff to kill anything that matters against an opponent competent at positioning their models. Shooting the Conscripts while they are effectively immune to morale is playing their game - which is a hard thing to avoid doing which is why AM are so top tier right now.

AM look under-costed across a variety of units right now, it is always going to be a challenge to beat that. I just begin to think that against the specific lists that Tau have very little chance of winning against Sniper Drones may actually be relevant.

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Panzer
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Re: Fire warriors vs guardsmen are they too cheap?

Post#7 » Sep 06 2017 02:08

Still doesn't change that it's a lot of points for a very subpar unit with a very specific purpose which can be easily countered by the AM player simply taking more Commissars which cost almost nothing anyway.

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Yojimbob
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Re: Fire warriors vs guardsmen are they too cheap?

Post#8 » Sep 06 2017 07:55

^^^

Nymphomanius
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Re: Fire warriors vs guardsmen are they too cheap?

Post#9 » Sep 06 2017 11:39

Though my basic point was not about sniper drones, it's do you think firewarriors should be 7points each as currently are over priced for their effectiveness.

On a side note played my first actual game of 8th ed today I'll put the battle report up later if anyone is interested, I was quite surprised just how good T5 Battlesuits are

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nic
Kroot'La
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Re: Fire warriors vs guardsmen are they too cheap?

Post#10 » Sep 06 2017 01:17

Nymphomanius wrote:Though my basic point was not about sniper drones, it's do you think firewarriors should be 7points each as currently are over priced for their effectiveness.



Honestly; no. Trying to re-set the whole game to the points efficiency of AM would almost certainly be a mistake. AM need fixing.

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Panzer
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Re: Fire warriors vs guardsmen are they too cheap?

Post#11 » Sep 06 2017 01:21

I agree with nic there. The Firewarrior definitely aren't too expensive. The Conscripts themselves also aren't necessarily too cheap imo. It's just that the combination of them + Comissars is too strong while some armies don't have the means to get rid of such support characters properly.
We will see what GW will do about that. The Astra Militarum codex is among the next four after all.

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QimRas
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Re: Fire warriors vs guardsmen are they too cheap?

Post#12 » Sep 06 2017 02:23

I am kinda hoping they fix the problem by making snipers across the board a little more cost effective and role effective.

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Yojimbob
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Re: Fire warriors vs guardsmen are they too cheap?

Post#13 » Sep 06 2017 02:31

I suspect we'll see some tweak to characters in general since they seem to dislike the character spam going on with our army and within armies like CSM and AM. It might come in the form of higher costs for characters or giving some multiple wound capabilities to sniper roles. I think it will likely be higher character costs.

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Panzer
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Re: Fire warriors vs guardsmen are they too cheap?

Post#14 » Sep 06 2017 02:36

A simple rule that prevents taking the same character more than once per detachment would work well tbh.
It would prevent spamming Commander or Comissars or Daemon Princes or whatever but would still allow it by taking multiple Detachments which would in return mean multiple minimum requirements aka less points to fill out your big detachment to get all those sweet CP.
The detachment limit on tournaments would further prevent Character spamming on top of that then.

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