To ATS or not to ATS that is the question.

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Pottsey
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Re: To ATS or not to ATS that is the question.

Post#19 » Sep 19 2017 01:11

thesnailmaster wrote:
Pottsey wrote:I don't agree Tau are no longer bad at CC as S5, T5, 4A at -1AP is not in the realms of bad CC. Against the right target ATS and CC is effective and depending on target 1 extra weapons isn't that much better then ATS. So the CC advantage can be well worth while. A commander or 2 flamers ATS Crsis Bodyguard squad with a few shield drones can have a high damage potential. I have caught out a number of opponents with this who expect them to be bad at CC. You do need to pick the right target but I am finding suits and tanks in CC is a massive advantage for Tau now.

Perhaps I have been playing Farsight Enclaves to long.



It works against things like basic marine squads, but anything that has any sort of kick in CC then the ATS and T'au in combat doesn't work very well.

I found it does when the target does not have many CC attacks like a Dread . Anything that hits hard but has few Attacks can be absorbed by shield drones. Leaving Tau to shoot, CC, Shoot. Its the big Ork style squads that I would avoid.

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Pilchard
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Re: To ATS or not to ATS that is the question.

Post#20 » Sep 19 2017 01:18

ATS is a fantastic support slot, combined with 3 cibs on commanders in competitive play or even to take full effect on a Stormsurge with all its weapons, masses of str 5 shots with -1 can really put the hurt on MEQ.

Even on commanders they are ok in combat when 3-4 of them heroic intervene into a squad which has pushed through your drone screen.

Along with target lock and DC (on stealth suits/coldstar) i think they are our best options until the codex drops.

Its shame we don't get it on vehicles to go on forgeworld hammerhead turrets.

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CDR_Farsight
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Re: To ATS or not to ATS that is the question.

Post#21 » Sep 20 2017 02:39

I put an ATS on my Dual Burst HAZARD suits. I haven't done the math, but my experience tells me that my opponents really hate them.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

Nymphomanius
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Re: To ATS or not to ATS that is the question.

Post#22 » Sep 20 2017 05:28

CDR_Farsight wrote:I put an ATS on my Dual Burst HAZARD suits. I haven't done the math, but my experience tells me that my opponents really hate them.


It's different with the hazards, Riptide, ghostkeels etc as the ATS is an add on it doesn't replace a weapon which is my main question, I have no doubt I would rather an ATS over a multi tracker for example

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CDR_Farsight
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Re: To ATS or not to ATS that is the question.

Post#23 » Sep 21 2017 09:07

Nymphomanius wrote:
CDR_Farsight wrote:I put an ATS on my Dual Burst HAZARD suits. I haven't done the math, but my experience tells me that my opponents really hate them.


It's different with the hazards, Riptide, ghostkeels etc as the ATS is an add on it doesn't replace a weapon which is my main question, I have no doubt I would rather an ATS over a multi tracker for example


If that's the case, you are almost always better without it. There was a spreadsheet on it for Commanders and Crisis suits. I believe the outcome was a resounding no to the ATS when only comparing replacing a weapon slot. On all metrics, the base model with three of the same weapon scored higher than the same model with two of the same weapons and an ATS. I think the ATS broke even or slightly outpaced the 3 weapon suit when firing a weapon with no AP against 2+ saves, but after that, the parity only decreases.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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Panzer
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Re: To ATS or not to ATS that is the question.

Post#24 » Sep 21 2017 09:14

CDR_Farsight wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
CDR_Farsight wrote:I put an ATS on my Dual Burst HAZARD suits. I haven't done the math, but my experience tells me that my opponents really hate them.


It's different with the hazards, Riptide, ghostkeels etc as the ATS is an add on it doesn't replace a weapon which is my main question, I have no doubt I would rather an ATS over a multi tracker for example


If that's the case, you are almost always better without it. There was a spreadsheet on it for Commanders and Crisis suits. I believe the outcome was a resounding no to the ATS when only comparing replacing a weapon slot. On all metrics, the base model with three of the same weapon scored higher than the same model with two of the same weapons and an ATS. I think the ATS broke even or slightly outpaced the 3 weapon suit when firing a weapon with no AP against 2+ saves, but after that, the parity only decreases.

That's right.

The decision making is really easy:
1. Do you have the option of an additional weapon?
-- > If yes, then don't take ATS. If no, go to question number 2.
2. Does your weapon already have good AP?
-- > If yes, then don't take ATS. If no, go to question number 3.
3. Is there a Support System you really really need over ATS? (Target Lock for bigger suits for example)
-- > If yes, take that one. If not ... well spend your points on a different unit.

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CDR_Farsight
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Re: To ATS or not to ATS that is the question.

Post#25 » Sep 21 2017 09:53

It would need either a drastic decrease in point...I'm talking as low as 2pts for Crisis and Commanders to be viable in a PPW scenario...or it would need to be additional AP- on a 6 or +1 BS at even the current points cost.

Option 1 is more viable, but they would have to make 2 ATS selection like they do for other entries...1 for CRISIS and Commanders, and 1 for everything else.

Option 2 would be friggin awesome! Which also means it will never happen....

What is actually more likely is that GW will impose a weapon limit on suits again so that you are forced to take a non-weapon system if you want to fill all 3 slots. This would nerf Commander spam as well, which I know they are actively looking into, since the first question a GW employee on the rules team asked me at NOVA when I told him I play Tau was, "So how many Commanders are you using." Luckily, I'm not an absolute hygenic cleanser, so I was only running 1 at anything 2000pts or less.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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Panzer
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Re: To ATS or not to ATS that is the question.

Post#26 » Sep 21 2017 10:31

The problem is that both, an additional weapon and the ATS, have the purpose of increasing the models damage output. One of them will always be better than the other.

Hence why nobody takes the Multi-tracker. Re-rolling 1s on a special condition while we already have access to re-rolling 1s via single Markerlights on the targets is 1.) worse than an AP buff or an additional weapon and 2.) way too redundant with elements we already have in our army anyway.

Maybe we just have to accept that ATS simply isn't an upgrade supposed to be taken by Crisis and Commander.
I mean I could think of re-working it into an effect that gives them something like a sniper ability (for more points of course) but I don't think that would be a fair change seeing how useful ATS still is for HYMP Broadsides, Dakka Ghostkeels/Riptides and Stormsurges.

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Arka0415
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Re: To ATS or not to ATS that is the question.

Post#27 » Sep 21 2017 06:49

Panzer wrote:Hence why nobody takes the Multi-tracker. Re-rolling 1s on a special condition while we already have access to re-rolling 1s via single Markerlights on the targets is 1.) worse than an AP buff or an additional weapon and 2.) way too redundant with elements we already have in our army anyway.

The Multi-Tracker was once the greatest piece of wargear in the Tau arsenal (allowed a model to fire two weapons), something no other army could do. Now it's junk. The only place I've found a use for it is in a 1998 point list and a Fusion Blaster Stealthsuit has an open System slot. I guess that's not too bad. Or, on a Fusion Collider Ghostkeel where you don't have the points for a Stimulant Injector.

Panzer wrote:Maybe we just have to accept that ATS simply isn't an upgrade supposed to be taken by Crisis and Commander.

I could agree with this. I think in a few cases (like in a low-points game where you want cheap CIBs, or 3xMP+1xATS) it fits but yeah, it's an upgrade meant for the bigger suits like Coldstars, Y'vahras, and Stormsurges.

Nymphomanius
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Re: To ATS or not to ATS that is the question.

Post#28 » Sep 22 2017 05:54

A big rework but one I think would work and get more use out of our systems would be limit the suits to 2 slots for crisis 3 for Commander, then 1 support slot and also bring back hardwired systems that can be taken in addition such as the drone controller and multi tracker.

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Panzer
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Re: To ATS or not to ATS that is the question.

Post#29 » Sep 22 2017 06:46

2 weapon slots + 1 Support slot for Crisis sounds fine but I'd really like to keep the 4 'anything' slots for Commander.
For one because having only three weapons on a Crisis chassis looks pretty ugly and then because four weapons on a Commander looks pretty badass and the decision to not take something defensive like Shield Gen in favor of more offensive output should be an option for him imo.

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thesnailmaster
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Re: To ATS or not to ATS that is the question.

Post#30 » Sep 22 2017 07:12

Personally in a world where elite armies can have the same shooting output as a horde, crisis need to have 3 weapon options to compensate for the 4+ BS, either that needs to change, the markerlight system needs to change or the as stated a selection of the support systems need a more expensive hardwired option so you can justify them as well.

Nymphomanius
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Re: To ATS or not to ATS that is the question.

Post#31 » Sep 22 2017 08:15

thesnailmaster wrote:Personally in a world where elite armies can have the same shooting output as a horde, crisis need to have 3 weapon options to compensate for the 4+ BS, either that needs to change, the markerlight system needs to change or the as stated a selection of the support systems need a more expensive hardwired option so you can justify them as well.


Because what they need to nerf QFC commanders is give them HW target locks and multi tracker :biggrin: :P

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