Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

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Arka0415
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#73 » Oct 20 2017 08:02

Panzer wrote:With infantry, yes. Just one more reason why Gun Drones are superior.

It can often be a good tactic to put Gun Drones in front of your regular Fire Warrior gunline, to soak charges. If you're expecting a rush or playing aggressively that is. When the Gun Drones get charged they overwatch well and still triggr FTGG, then if they survive they can fall back and still fire while the rest of the troops can fire too.

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Arka0415
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#74 » Oct 21 2017 04:39

Haechi wrote:
Panzer wrote:To rub salt into the wound, Craftworld Eldar just got a -1 to hit at >12" Attribute as well and it even applies to their Knights and Flyer. Oh boy I can't wait to hit stuff on 5+ and 6+!


T'au is the new ork!


Ork is the new "skips the shooting phase!"

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Panzer
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#75 » Oct 21 2017 04:51

Arka0415 wrote:
Haechi wrote:
Panzer wrote:To rub salt into the wound, Craftworld Eldar just got a -1 to hit at >12" Attribute as well and it even applies to their Knights and Flyer. Oh boy I can't wait to hit stuff on 5+ and 6+!


T'au is the new ork!


Ork is the new "skips the shooting phase!"

So Ork is the new Khorne Daemons? :D

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mason8ah
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#76 » Oct 21 2017 07:17

Arka0415 wrote:
Haechi wrote:
Panzer wrote:To rub salt into the wound, Craftworld Eldar just got a -1 to hit at >12" Attribute as well and it even applies to their Knights and Flyer. Oh boy I can't wait to hit stuff on 5+ and 6+!


T'au is the new ork!


Ork is the new "skips the shooting phase!"


Surely you'd think those fancy little helmets with sophisticated lenses, for a shooting army, would do something like prevent the tau from ever having to roll to-hit on anything less than a 5+. Otherwise if this gets out of hand we'll start seeing players fielding more and more gun drones for sheer rate of fire and just blindly charging them in cos it's more effective way of hitting the enemy.
mason8ah

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Arka0415
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#77 » Oct 21 2017 08:33

mason8ah wrote:Surely you'd think those fancy little helmets with sophisticated lenses, for a shooting army, would do something like prevent the tau from ever having to roll to-hit on anything less than a 5+. Otherwise if this gets out of hand we'll start seeing players fielding more and more gun drones for sheer rate of fire and just blindly charging them in cos it's more effective way of hitting the enemy.

We had our solution to low accuracy with Markerlights, now in this edition Markerlights have gotten... weird. Hopefully they feel more relevant with our Codex release.

I've been noticing, about myself and lots of us here on ATT, we're saying "when the Codex comes out..." pretty often. Man, there's a lot that hinges on that one book...

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#78 » Oct 21 2017 11:11

Stormsurge can get +2 to hit. It takes work. 5 marker lights and stabilizing anchors. I wish we had -1 to ap ability with markerlights which makes our hits more valuable. The 4 markerlights needed to remove cover should also remove abilities that give negative modifiers to hit rolls, imo. So my biggest annoyance is also the markerlight table. Another annoyance is not being able to put a suit on a transport. Imagine being able to load flame crisis suits on a devil fish

I just noticed.... We are playing our armies bad. We are whining about combat, when we are locking on our punches.... Markerlights power up our suit punching things. Lol
Last edited by Lostroninsoul on Oct 21 2017 04:14, edited 1 time in total.

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nic
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#79 » Oct 21 2017 01:19

Arka0415 wrote:
mason8ah wrote:Surely you'd think those fancy little helmets with sophisticated lenses, for a shooting army, would do something like prevent the tau from ever having to roll to-hit on anything less than a 5+. Otherwise if this gets out of hand we'll start seeing players fielding more and more gun drones for sheer rate of fire and just blindly charging them in cos it's more effective way of hitting the enemy.

We had our solution to low accuracy with Markerlights, now in this edition Markerlights have gotten... weird. Hopefully they feel more relevant with our Codex release.

I've been noticing, about myself and lots of us here on ATT, we're saying "when the Codex comes out..." pretty often. Man, there's a lot that hinges on that one book...


Until the codex drops most of the index is just for funsies. You would never seriously take anything that depended on markerlight hits to be worthwhile because just when you need them most they will miss. An Eldar player could present you with basically a wall of models that you are at -2 to hit, so your guns hit on 6+ and the markerlights to help you out with that hit on 6+ so they are no help. Ad Mech can do something similar, other armies need to at least try a bit before they achieve the -2 or more that basically negates our shooting phase. With the strength of AM anyone with the option available to negate enemy shooting is likely to choose that option.

Only the stuff that hits on 2+ or auto-hits has a chance in those match-ups - and if you are going to a tournament and gambling on avoiding unwinnable match-ups then you are going just for funsies.

armisael
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#80 » Oct 21 2017 10:14

My most annoying is our BS4+. I understand that we have to be BS4+ because of our markerlight system that +to hit 1.

I just feel like we are sub par without markerlight (compared with spacemarine/eldar).

and just par with 5 markerlight

I don’t know how to explain. But if we have no markerlight system. Our BS might be 3+ like space marine and eldar.

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#81 » Oct 21 2017 10:25

I won't mention points or units that are too strong or too weak. I got three annoying weakness: Bad in Melee, No Psychic Phase, and Mediocre Shooting.

I get why we are not good in melee. You can't have an army that excels at shooting to also be good at melee. You gotta have a kryptonite. I get that. This actually isn't really that big of a deal for me. Compared to the other two on this list, this is just a minor annoyance. It would be nice to have more melee oriented fighters. I think a T'au suit that excels in close combat would be awesome. Something like the Iron Man Hulk fighting suit. No guns or anything like that, just high armor and strength.

Not having a psychic phase is pretty difficult, imo. We only play the game, we don't know what the design aspect or balance goals are behind the scenes. As a player though, it feels bad when there's an entire phase that I cannot take part in (should my opponent even have psychic stuff). Psychic powers are also not designed to be game breaking to be clear, but it adds an extra layer and depth to the game that can be greatly beneficial. I hope that we get a more fleshed out "bonus" phase or list of actions for us to do to make up for that fact.

Let me start by giving you a preface for this one. T'au are designed and built around the idea that they have fantastic technology that is sophisticated enough to rival other factions and even the Imperium. Some of you may not agree, but T'au have some of the strongest weapons in the game. Our basic infantry and pretty much everything we have access to has strength 5 weapons and it just goes up from there. There's just one little problem.

T'au have a hard time shooting those fantastic weapons. All of our HQs hit on 2s for the most part. There's only one or two of our vehicles that hit on 3s. Everything else hits on 4s. We have absolutely no middle ground what so ever, and that is, I think, the biggest weakness to T'au. Not the stuff that we don't have access to. Not the stuff that we suck at. We just can't seem to hit things.

Even markerlights often fail to make that work, especially with how they are in 8th. I'm not sure what would be a good change to fix this problem. Maybe they could make it so that all models with the rank of Shas'vre have BS3. That would spread out the "skill curve". Perhaps Sept attributes could fix problems, or stratagems. Markerlights might get a rework to have their effectiveness boosted.

So while I feel like the first two problems won't be addressed because they are there by design, the problem with T'au being bad at shooting (relatively speaking), will hopefully be addressed in the next codex.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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nix0n
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#82 » Oct 22 2017 01:45

While browsing this discussion and seeing how there are so many enemy debuffs to shooting and how our shooting is so "meh" from the get go, would this fix anything?
There would be a T'au specific keyword that doesn't allow any T'au unit to drop their BS worse than 5+ (or 4+ but I'm afraid that would be a bit too powerful...) no matter the modifier's effect. I believe T'au fluff would already easily support this kind of idea.

Or am I wishlisting too much?
Cheers!
Nix

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Arka0415
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#83 » Oct 22 2017 03:00

nix0n wrote:While browsing this discussion and seeing how there are so many enemy debuffs to shooting and how our shooting is so "meh" from the get go, would this fix anything?
There would be a T'au specific keyword that doesn't allow any T'au unit to drop their BS worse than 5+ (or 4+ but I'm afraid that would be a bit too powerful...) no matter the modifier's effect. I believe T'au fluff would already easily support this kind of idea.

8th Edition changed a ton, and Tau (at least in the index) didn't change. There were design reasons behind why Plasma was S6 and why Railguns were S10. Now, those reasons are no longer valid.

If we don't get some unique unit perks that help shooting (like your suggestion nix0n, though it's unlikely) we're not going to be a good faction. That's what I'm afraid of.

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mason8ah
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#84 » Oct 22 2017 06:52

AnonAmbientLight wrote:I won't mention points or units that are too strong or too weak. I got three annoying weakness: Bad in Melee, No Psychic Phase, and Mediocre Shooting.

Maybe they could make it so that all models with the rank of Shas'vre have BS3. That would spread out the "skill curve". Perhaps Sept attributes could fix problems, or stratagems. Markerlights might get a rework to have their effectiveness boosted.


I get no Combat and I'm happy with it too, but as we only have 2 out of the 4 Battle phases (move and shoot) We should be massively excelling in one of those phases or good in both.
So may armies are good in all 4. Marines are a jack of all trades but are good in them all. The new Harlequins I found out excel in movement and combat, have short range but VERY strong ranged weapons and good psychers. Nids can shoot fairly well for creatures, excel in combat, move well, and have good psychers too and a -1 to-hit from malanthropes is good (so FW's and Pathfinders hitting on 5s lol).
I'm happy to have no Combat or Psych phase, but damn well have to obliterate whatever is put in our sights in the shooting phase. Or at least shoot well and have some awesome tactical movement abilities, like bring back JSJ, More vanguard options or some cool 'fish tactics or better movement all round.

And quite why a Fire Warrior who's proved themselves for years on the battlefield and given the best technology in the galaxy can still only have a BS4+ is beyond me :eek:
mason8ah

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#85 » Oct 22 2017 09:35

Haechi wrote:
Lostroninsoul wrote:
I just noticed.... We are playing our armies bad. We are whining about combat, when we are locking on our punches.... Markerlights power up our suit punching things. Lol


Markerlights don't last after the shooting phase.

Good catch. Well there goes my idea of rock em sock em robots...

Klapaucius87
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#86 » Oct 22 2017 06:00

What about have markerlight hit at 2+ or something like that?
Given they are a key part of our synergy the fact they hit 50% of times or less is quite damaging in itself.
Especially with the 3ml bonus you move and than HOPE to get the 3 hit to remove the penalty. Not exactly something to plan around, unless you a squad of pathfinder to back it up.

Wedrujacy
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#87 » Oct 23 2017 03:12

And then for sure we will have only alpha strike as there will be for sure no markelights after 1st turn.

If ML could stack for 2phases at least then it will be possible to use 5th point reasonable.

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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#88 » Oct 23 2017 04:11

Or an interesting thought make the table bigger with more buffs and make the markerlight token last all game?

But personally I think a mix of the old and new would be best.

Something like this
. When a unit is hit by a markerlight, place a counter next to it for the remainder of the phase. The table below describes the benefits T'AU EMPIRE models can have when shooting at a unit that has markerlight counters.
Each time a unit fires at a unit with markerlight tokens you may apply 1 effect for each markerlight token on the target (all effects are cumulative)
* 1 - You can re-roll to hit rolls of 1 for T'AU EMPIRE models attacking this unit.
* 2 - Destroyer and seeker missiles fired at this unit use the firing model's Ballistic Skill (and any modifiers) rather than only hitting on a 6.
* 3 - T'AU EMPIRE models attacking this unit do not suffer the penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons or Advancing and firing Assault weapons.
* 4 - The target unit does not gain any bonus to its saving throws for being in cover.
* 5 - Add 1 to hit rolls for T'AU EMPIRE models attacking this unit. (may stack up to 2 times)
*6 - T'au Empire models that roll a 6+ to hit may fire an additional shot (these shots cannot generate additional shots)
*7 - an enemy unit wounded by this attack must subtract 1 from their morale until the end of the turn (may be applied by up to 3 units)

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