Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

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Supershrew
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#73 » Oct 20 2017 10:20

I mean people go on about drones being amazing but only being able to shoot the nearest target is annoying and the leadership of 6 is brutal .Sure you can have an ethereal babysitting them but that limits the mobility and you can’t have one ethereal babysitting more then 2 squads and have them hit prime targets . In my experience the drones get whittled down pretty easily and then morale takes the rest . Previously I went on about flamer crisis Suits but have found that they tend to get killed immediately . If the stealth suits get taken out before they drop the homing beacon then they are out of range and do nothing . I serious think that all our suits will have to go to 3+ or we have a mechanism to ignore -1 because hitting on 5+ for a shooting army is an absolute joke . When guard veterans have a better ballistic skill then a 400 point storm surge supposedly with the best targeting system in the universe then something is badly amiss. As you can tell I’m somewhat annoyed especially as both chaos and imperium have access to all manner of goodies to fill any gaps and we have the kroot who are useless and die horribly ,being one of the worst troop choices in the game when it come to living past turn 2. I would be happy if the kroot are squatted and we are given either more tau or a decent ally in the codex.

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mason8ah
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#74 » Oct 20 2017 10:22

Arka0415 wrote:Forget everything you know about Tau, because it's a whole different galaxy now.


OK, this thread has become a MarkerLight discussion little bit.
I've started a new thread with interesting thought on what Arka0415 said. It's a whole different galaxy now

Check it out:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26682

Feel free to discuss away. But my reason for starting this topic has been fulfilled. So thank you so much to everyone who's contributed. It's helped me SO much and I'm a much better Tau player now!
mason8ah

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mason8ah
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#75 » Oct 20 2017 10:28

Panzer wrote:
Supershrew wrote:I’m afraid I have defected from tau and have started a death guard army until the codex comes out . With more and more armies having access to -1 to hit Buffs ( raven guard etc) I just don’t think bs 4+ can cut it . It is ridiculous that a riptide at 300 point plus is only hitting on 5+ against loads of armies . Whilst I think you can play tau semi competitively your lists options are too restricted and I got bored of playing commanders and drones. Our big suits need serious rebalancing and without psychic powers, combat or allies we are too one dimensional to either be that competitive or fun. I would argue that we are the faction most in need of a codex right now, given that loads of the index is not playable. My most annoying weakness is that everything we have , other factions have it but better. Our buffs are poor and don’t fit with a mobile army . Markerlights are poor and struggle to live past turn 2 .when marines get rerolls 3+ and we need 5 markerlight hits to get that you know you have problems .

To rub salt into the wound, Craftworld Eldar just got a -1 to hit at >12" Attribute as well and it even applies to their Knights and Flyer. Oh boy I can't wait to hit stuff on 5+ and 6+!


Coming back to my original problem with Harlequins, they have this -1 to-hit too. They're VERY FAST, so they're on you like a rash, and you can only hit them on 5+ in that 1 turn you may actually be able to shoot them in. The rest of the game you'll be clubbing them with butt of a pulse ride.
mason8ah

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Panzer
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#76 » Oct 20 2017 10:29

mason8ah wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Supershrew wrote:I’m afraid I have defected from tau and have started a death guard army until the codex comes out . With more and more armies having access to -1 to hit Buffs ( raven guard etc) I just don’t think bs 4+ can cut it . It is ridiculous that a riptide at 300 point plus is only hitting on 5+ against loads of armies . Whilst I think you can play tau semi competitively your lists options are too restricted and I got bored of playing commanders and drones. Our big suits need serious rebalancing and without psychic powers, combat or allies we are too one dimensional to either be that competitive or fun. I would argue that we are the faction most in need of a codex right now, given that loads of the index is not playable. My most annoying weakness is that everything we have , other factions have it but better. Our buffs are poor and don’t fit with a mobile army . Markerlights are poor and struggle to live past turn 2 .when marines get rerolls 3+ and we need 5 markerlight hits to get that you know you have problems .

To rub salt into the wound, Craftworld Eldar just got a -1 to hit at >12" Attribute as well and it even applies to their Knights and Flyer. Oh boy I can't wait to hit stuff on 5+ and 6+!


Coming back to my original problem with Harlequins, they have this -1 to-hit too. They're VERY FAST, so they're on you like a rash, and you can only hit them on 5+ in that 1 turn you may actually be able to shoot them in. The rest of the game you'll be clubbing them with butt of a pulse ride.

With infantry, yes. Just one more reason why Gun Drones are superior.

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Arka0415
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#77 » Oct 20 2017 08:02

Panzer wrote:With infantry, yes. Just one more reason why Gun Drones are superior.

It can often be a good tactic to put Gun Drones in front of your regular Fire Warrior gunline, to soak charges. If you're expecting a rush or playing aggressively that is. When the Gun Drones get charged they overwatch well and still triggr FTGG, then if they survive they can fall back and still fire while the rest of the troops can fire too.

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Haechi
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#78 » Oct 21 2017 04:31

Panzer wrote:To rub salt into the wound, Craftworld Eldar just got a -1 to hit at >12" Attribute as well and it even applies to their Knights and Flyer. Oh boy I can't wait to hit stuff on 5+ and 6+!


T'au is the new ork!

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#79 » Oct 21 2017 04:39

Haechi wrote:
Panzer wrote:To rub salt into the wound, Craftworld Eldar just got a -1 to hit at >12" Attribute as well and it even applies to their Knights and Flyer. Oh boy I can't wait to hit stuff on 5+ and 6+!


T'au is the new ork!


Ork is the new "skips the shooting phase!"

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Panzer
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#80 » Oct 21 2017 04:51

Arka0415 wrote:
Haechi wrote:
Panzer wrote:To rub salt into the wound, Craftworld Eldar just got a -1 to hit at >12" Attribute as well and it even applies to their Knights and Flyer. Oh boy I can't wait to hit stuff on 5+ and 6+!


T'au is the new ork!


Ork is the new "skips the shooting phase!"

So Ork is the new Khorne Daemons? :D

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mason8ah
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#81 » Oct 21 2017 07:17

Arka0415 wrote:
Haechi wrote:
Panzer wrote:To rub salt into the wound, Craftworld Eldar just got a -1 to hit at >12" Attribute as well and it even applies to their Knights and Flyer. Oh boy I can't wait to hit stuff on 5+ and 6+!


T'au is the new ork!


Ork is the new "skips the shooting phase!"


Surely you'd think those fancy little helmets with sophisticated lenses, for a shooting army, would do something like prevent the tau from ever having to roll to-hit on anything less than a 5+. Otherwise if this gets out of hand we'll start seeing players fielding more and more gun drones for sheer rate of fire and just blindly charging them in cos it's more effective way of hitting the enemy.
mason8ah

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Arka0415
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#82 » Oct 21 2017 08:33

mason8ah wrote:Surely you'd think those fancy little helmets with sophisticated lenses, for a shooting army, would do something like prevent the tau from ever having to roll to-hit on anything less than a 5+. Otherwise if this gets out of hand we'll start seeing players fielding more and more gun drones for sheer rate of fire and just blindly charging them in cos it's more effective way of hitting the enemy.

We had our solution to low accuracy with Markerlights, now in this edition Markerlights have gotten... weird. Hopefully they feel more relevant with our Codex release.

I've been noticing, about myself and lots of us here on ATT, we're saying "when the Codex comes out..." pretty often. Man, there's a lot that hinges on that one book...

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#83 » Oct 21 2017 11:11

Stormsurge can get +2 to hit. It takes work. 5 marker lights and stabilizing anchors. I wish we had -1 to ap ability with markerlights which makes our hits more valuable. The 4 markerlights needed to remove cover should also remove abilities that give negative modifiers to hit rolls, imo. So my biggest annoyance is also the markerlight table. Another annoyance is not being able to put a suit on a transport. Imagine being able to load flame crisis suits on a devil fish

I just noticed.... We are playing our armies bad. We are whining about combat, when we are locking on our punches.... Markerlights power up our suit punching things. Lol
Last edited by Lostroninsoul on Oct 21 2017 04:14, edited 1 time in total.

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nic
Kroot'La
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#84 » Oct 21 2017 01:19

Arka0415 wrote:
mason8ah wrote:Surely you'd think those fancy little helmets with sophisticated lenses, for a shooting army, would do something like prevent the tau from ever having to roll to-hit on anything less than a 5+. Otherwise if this gets out of hand we'll start seeing players fielding more and more gun drones for sheer rate of fire and just blindly charging them in cos it's more effective way of hitting the enemy.

We had our solution to low accuracy with Markerlights, now in this edition Markerlights have gotten... weird. Hopefully they feel more relevant with our Codex release.

I've been noticing, about myself and lots of us here on ATT, we're saying "when the Codex comes out..." pretty often. Man, there's a lot that hinges on that one book...


Until the codex drops most of the index is just for funsies. You would never seriously take anything that depended on markerlight hits to be worthwhile because just when you need them most they will miss. An Eldar player could present you with basically a wall of models that you are at -2 to hit, so your guns hit on 6+ and the markerlights to help you out with that hit on 6+ so they are no help. Ad Mech can do something similar, other armies need to at least try a bit before they achieve the -2 or more that basically negates our shooting phase. With the strength of AM anyone with the option available to negate enemy shooting is likely to choose that option.

Only the stuff that hits on 2+ or auto-hits has a chance in those match-ups - and if you are going to a tournament and gambling on avoiding unwinnable match-ups then you are going just for funsies.

armisael
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#85 » Oct 21 2017 10:14

My most annoying is our BS4+. I understand that we have to be BS4+ because of our markerlight system that +to hit 1.

I just feel like we are sub par without markerlight (compared with spacemarine/eldar).

and just par with 5 markerlight

I don’t know how to explain. But if we have no markerlight system. Our BS might be 3+ like space marine and eldar.

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AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#86 » Oct 21 2017 10:25

I won't mention points or units that are too strong or too weak. I got three annoying weakness: Bad in Melee, No Psychic Phase, and Mediocre Shooting.

I get why we are not good in melee. You can't have an army that excels at shooting to also be good at melee. You gotta have a kryptonite. I get that. This actually isn't really that big of a deal for me. Compared to the other two on this list, this is just a minor annoyance. It would be nice to have more melee oriented fighters. I think a T'au suit that excels in close combat would be awesome. Something like the Iron Man Hulk fighting suit. No guns or anything like that, just high armor and strength.

Not having a psychic phase is pretty difficult, imo. We only play the game, we don't know what the design aspect or balance goals are behind the scenes. As a player though, it feels bad when there's an entire phase that I cannot take part in (should my opponent even have psychic stuff). Psychic powers are also not designed to be game breaking to be clear, but it adds an extra layer and depth to the game that can be greatly beneficial. I hope that we get a more fleshed out "bonus" phase or list of actions for us to do to make up for that fact.

Let me start by giving you a preface for this one. T'au are designed and built around the idea that they have fantastic technology that is sophisticated enough to rival other factions and even the Imperium. Some of you may not agree, but T'au have some of the strongest weapons in the game. Our basic infantry and pretty much everything we have access to has strength 5 weapons and it just goes up from there. There's just one little problem.

T'au have a hard time shooting those fantastic weapons. All of our HQs hit on 2s for the most part. There's only one or two of our vehicles that hit on 3s. Everything else hits on 4s. We have absolutely no middle ground what so ever, and that is, I think, the biggest weakness to T'au. Not the stuff that we don't have access to. Not the stuff that we suck at. We just can't seem to hit things.

Even markerlights often fail to make that work, especially with how they are in 8th. I'm not sure what would be a good change to fix this problem. Maybe they could make it so that all models with the rank of Shas'vre have BS3. That would spread out the "skill curve". Perhaps Sept attributes could fix problems, or stratagems. Markerlights might get a rework to have their effectiveness boosted.

So while I feel like the first two problems won't be addressed because they are there by design, the problem with T'au being bad at shooting (relatively speaking), will hopefully be addressed in the next codex.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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nix0n
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#87 » Oct 22 2017 01:45

While browsing this discussion and seeing how there are so many enemy debuffs to shooting and how our shooting is so "meh" from the get go, would this fix anything?
There would be a T'au specific keyword that doesn't allow any T'au unit to drop their BS worse than 5+ (or 4+ but I'm afraid that would be a bit too powerful...) no matter the modifier's effect. I believe T'au fluff would already easily support this kind of idea.

Or am I wishlisting too much?
Cheers!
Nix

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Arka0415
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#88 » Oct 22 2017 03:00

nix0n wrote:While browsing this discussion and seeing how there are so many enemy debuffs to shooting and how our shooting is so "meh" from the get go, would this fix anything?
There would be a T'au specific keyword that doesn't allow any T'au unit to drop their BS worse than 5+ (or 4+ but I'm afraid that would be a bit too powerful...) no matter the modifier's effect. I believe T'au fluff would already easily support this kind of idea.

8th Edition changed a ton, and Tau (at least in the index) didn't change. There were design reasons behind why Plasma was S6 and why Railguns were S10. Now, those reasons are no longer valid.

If we don't get some unique unit perks that help shooting (like your suggestion nix0n, though it's unlikely) we're not going to be a good faction. That's what I'm afraid of.

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Haechi
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#89 » Oct 22 2017 03:49

Lostroninsoul wrote:
I just noticed.... We are playing our armies bad. We are whining about combat, when we are locking on our punches.... Markerlights power up our suit punching things. Lol


Markerlights don't last after the shooting phase.

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mason8ah
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#90 » Oct 22 2017 06:52

AnonAmbientLight wrote:I won't mention points or units that are too strong or too weak. I got three annoying weakness: Bad in Melee, No Psychic Phase, and Mediocre Shooting.

Maybe they could make it so that all models with the rank of Shas'vre have BS3. That would spread out the "skill curve". Perhaps Sept attributes could fix problems, or stratagems. Markerlights might get a rework to have their effectiveness boosted.


I get no Combat and I'm happy with it too, but as we only have 2 out of the 4 Battle phases (move and shoot) We should be massively excelling in one of those phases or good in both.
So may armies are good in all 4. Marines are a jack of all trades but are good in them all. The new Harlequins I found out excel in movement and combat, have short range but VERY strong ranged weapons and good psychers. Nids can shoot fairly well for creatures, excel in combat, move well, and have good psychers too and a -1 to-hit from malanthropes is good (so FW's and Pathfinders hitting on 5s lol).
I'm happy to have no Combat or Psych phase, but damn well have to obliterate whatever is put in our sights in the shooting phase. Or at least shoot well and have some awesome tactical movement abilities, like bring back JSJ, More vanguard options or some cool 'fish tactics or better movement all round.

And quite why a Fire Warrior who's proved themselves for years on the battlefield and given the best technology in the galaxy can still only have a BS4+ is beyond me :eek:
mason8ah

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