Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

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Panzer
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#37 » Oct 19 2017 09:53

mason8ah wrote:BUT, that feeling when you get 5 marker lights on marines (especially scouts) in cover, strip them of their cover save, hit and wound them on 3s and re-roll the 1s, is soooo good.

It's so good until you realize that Marines usually have BS3+ and re-roll of 1s with much less efford as well. :D

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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#38 » Oct 19 2017 10:25

I'm probably not the first to say it but a return of the targeting array would be an interesting support system that I don't understand why it was dropped in the first place.

For anyone who doesn't know what that is a targeting array was a 10pt support system that gave +1 BS back in 5th edition.

Back then you could only fire max 2 weapons anyway so was assumedly a popular support system, it was for me anyway, especially on missile pod XV8s and broadsides.

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Haechi
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#39 » Oct 19 2017 10:28

Panzer wrote:
mason8ah wrote:BUT, that feeling when you get 5 marker lights on marines (especially scouts) in cover, strip them of their cover save, hit and wound them on 3s and re-roll the 1s, is soooo good.

It's so good until you realize that Marines usually have BS3+ and re-roll of 1s with much less efford as well. :D


And when you realize Markerlight units are a HUGE tax in your army if you're aiming to get 5 even on just one unit per turn.

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Panzer
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#40 » Oct 19 2017 10:29

Nymphomanius wrote:I'm probably not the first to say it but a return of the targeting array would be an interesting support system that I don't understand why it was dropped in the first place.

For anyone who doesn't know what that is a targeting array was a 10pt support system that gave +1 BS back in 5th edition.

Back then you could only fire max 2 weapons anyway so was assumedly a popular support system, it was for me anyway, especially on missile pod XV8s and broadsides.



That would be pretty nice as well yeah, but I'd prefer a re-work of the Markerlight table to be honest.

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mason8ah
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#41 » Oct 19 2017 05:06

Haechi wrote:And when you realize Markerlight units are a HUGE tax in your army if you're aiming to get 5 even on just one unit per turn.

Yea that is a bummer. On this note then, what are your thoughts on the Tidewall Droneport with Marker drones and darkstrider/Fireblade at the drone controller? works out a 155pts. I like the idea, better manoeuvrability, better armour save for drones and better BS with the drone controller. But I haven't tested it yet.
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Arka0415
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#42 » Oct 19 2017 06:44

GND wrote:As for the list. I don't think going so heavy on Fusion Blasters on the XV8s is necessary. Longstrike, the Commander and CIB Crisis provide a good anti tank core at 1500 points in general IMO. And specifically against the 'Quin player, he's got only 3 transports. FBs are bad at killing Troupe members due to your low BS and invul. saves on the clowns. I would go for cheaper weapons like Flamers or some more CIBs. If you save enough points you can give Longstrike SMS instead of Drones. SMS is good on Longstrike, probably the only place where it's worth the points.

Again, I'm not making an anti-Harlequins list, I don't really think it's a fair thing to do. At any rate, Longstrike isn't really an alpha strike unit, and the CIB XV8s aren't ideal at killing heavy tanks. If the enemy has a Land Raider, or Leman Russ spam, or worse yet an Imperial Knight, you're going to want two anti-tank alpha strike units; thus in my list I'm packing the Fusion Commander and Fusion XV8 squad. Those squads together should get us 7-8 Fusion hits if firing together, and we'd like to hope that gives us 4D6 or 5D6 damage at the end of the day. That's just enough to bring down a Land Raider or severely cripple an Imperial Knight.

(Of course, a pair of Fusion Commanders is better and cheaper but not everyone has that many Commanders.)

mason8ah wrote:
Haechi wrote:And when you realize Markerlight units are a HUGE tax in your army if you're aiming to get 5 even on just one unit per turn.

Yea that is a bummer. On this note then, what are your thoughts on the Tidewall Droneport with Marker drones and darkstrider/Fireblade at the drone controller? works out a 155pts. I like the idea, better manoeuvrability, better armour save for drones and better BS with the drone controller. But I haven't tested it yet.

Look at Haechi's post again- they word here is "tax". This is one of the most fun synergies in our book, but it just isn't worth it. Over 10% of the points in a 1500-point army spent to get four BS2+ Marker Drones, and putting a Fireblade (or Darkstrider) in the Droneport wastes their abilities. If you want to buy 155 points worth of Markerlights, which would you prefer- the Droneport combo, or 19 Pathfinders?

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Studioworks
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#43 » Oct 20 2017 02:34

mason8ah wrote:
Haechi wrote:To me the main weakness is the unability to be versatile. Because of the 4+ to hit and because of all the D6 shots or D6 damage weapons, doing one thing reliably is already hard.


Yes, that 4+ BS is very annoying, especially when marines hit on 3s AND are better in combat and better armour saves too.


If we could shot everything on BS 3+ we would be too strong and I think 4+ is perfect. We simply must use markerlights. I don't know your experience but mine tells that everytime I mark a unit with 5 ML I don't destroy it, I ANNIHILATE it. :D We have a good army to reliably kill priority units, we just need to understand what is the priority.

So for now, as far as I see, we have a great army. With a little bit of points corrections, stratagems and relics we will be even more potent. Maybe would be also great to make a new markerlight table, to give us 1+ BS on 4 markers would be perfect.

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Panzer
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#44 » Oct 20 2017 02:38

Studioworks wrote:
mason8ah wrote:
Haechi wrote:To me the main weakness is the unability to be versatile. Because of the 4+ to hit and because of all the D6 shots or D6 damage weapons, doing one thing reliably is already hard.


Yes, that 4+ BS is very annoying, especially when marines hit on 3s AND are better in combat and better armour saves too.


If we could shot everything on BS 3+ we would be too strong and I think 4+ is perfect. We simply must use markerlights.

4+ would be perfect if we had a better Markerlight table. 5 Markerlights is just too much to get us on the same level as other shooty armies.

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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#45 » Oct 20 2017 02:47

Panzer wrote:
Studioworks wrote:
mason8ah wrote:
Yes, that 4+ BS is very annoying, especially when marines hit on 3s AND are better in combat and better armour saves too.


If we could shot everything on BS 3+ we would be too strong and I think 4+ is perfect. We simply must use markerlights.

4+ would be perfect if we had a better Markerlight table. 5 Markerlights is just too much to get us on the same level as other shooty armies.

Yes, I agree. Let's say 4 ML for 1+ BS. It must not be easy to get markers because we will be too strong.

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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#46 » Oct 20 2017 03:45

I'm still promoting my reworked Markerlight table:
1. Re-roll 1s
2. Missiles at users BS, +1 to-hit
3. Ignore Cover
4. +1 to-hit

It basically fused the 2nd and 3rd bonus and made the "ignore movement penalties" into a +1 to-hit because it's basically the same thing just before it was very siuational and very clunky to use because you have to move/advance before shooting Markerlights.
We could even add other stuff for a 5th bonus. Stronger Missiles or whatever.

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Haechi
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#47 » Oct 20 2017 04:50

Studioworks wrote:
mason8ah wrote:
Haechi wrote:To me the main weakness is the unability to be versatile. Because of the 4+ to hit and because of all the D6 shots or D6 damage weapons, doing one thing reliably is already hard.


Yes, that 4+ BS is very annoying, especially when marines hit on 3s AND are better in combat and better armour saves too.


If we could shot everything on BS 3+ we would be too strong and I think 4+ is perfect. We simply must use markerlights. I don't know your experience but mine tells that everytime I mark a unit with 5 ML I don't destroy it, I ANNIHILATE it. :D We have a good army to reliably kill priority units, we just need to understand what is the priority.

So for now, as far as I see, we have a great army. With a little bit of points corrections, stratagems and relics we will be even more potent. Maybe would be also great to make a new markerlight table, to give us 1+ BS on 4 markers would be perfect.


I don't know if we would be too strong with BS3+ We'd be out of fluff though, for sure, but I wish at lease the Shas'vres would get a 3+.
The other problem with the current state of our army, is the volume of fire and the unreliability of it. Take the Stormsurge for example, it's the embodiment of that problem. D3 shots for its big cannon. D3. That's too little volume, but look at the damage afterwards: D6. This is a 100+ points weapon on a 400+ points model, and if you roll poorly, not even on hits and wounds, you can do 1 damage. To me, if this weapon keeps the D3 shots, it needs to do flat 6 damage. And if it keeps the D6 Damage, then it needs to do flat 3 shots. And this is an issue we see all around the army, and when your army hits on 4+, you can't have such little volume of fire.
You know what weapon almost was our best one? The Riptide's Ion accelerator. Finally a flat 3 damage... and goddamn D6 shots. On a platform that hits on 4+, even rolling 4 shots is unacceptable. The Ion accelerator needs a flat 5 or 6 shots. 6 shots isn't even that much. It's 18 damage at most, and that's if you've hit and wounded, and your opponent didn't save, didn't feel no pain, or whatever. Coming from a 350 points model, it's not that crazy.

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mason8ah
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#48 » Oct 20 2017 04:58

Panzer wrote:I'm still promoting my reworked Markerlight table:
1. Re-roll 1s
2. Missiles at users BS, +1 to-hit
3. Ignore Cover
4. +1 to-hit

It basically fused the 2nd and 3rd bonus and made the "ignore movement penalties" into a +1 to-hit because it's basically the same thing just before it was very siuational and very clunky to use because you have to move/advance before shooting Markerlights.
We could even add other stuff for a 5th bonus. Stronger Missiles or whatever.


This I can get on board with. I took 10 pathfinders last game, 5 hits on turn 1. Then they got taken down to 9 pathfinders and I could only get out 4 hits each turn.



Arka0415 wrote:
mason8ah wrote:Yea that is a bummer. On this note then, what are your thoughts on the Tidewall Droneport with Marker drones and darkstrider/Fireblade at the drone controller? works out a 155pts. I like the idea, better manoeuvrability, better armour save for drones and better BS with the drone controller. But I haven't tested it yet.

Look at Haechi's post again- they word here is "tax". This is one of the most fun synergies in our book, but it just isn't worth it. Over 10% of the points in a 1500-point army spent to get four BS2+ Marker Drones, and putting a Fireblade (or Darkstrider) in the Droneport wastes their abilities. If you want to buy 155 points worth of Markerlights, which would you prefer- the Droneport combo, or 19 Pathfinders?


The community seem to be very split on the droneport. The 'Mathhammer' people say it's not worth it, but everyone who's taken one to the field says they've been great. I strongly think 40k is more than maths, obviously you gotta enjoy it 1st and maths doesn't always translate to table. I think Darkstrider is utilised very well in the Droneport (not cadre fireblade, he's best with drones) because he can give his structural analyser to ion rifles/nearby units.

Ultimately, like pathfinders, the droneport and drones will give the enemy a difficult decision. - "do i waste firepower attacking something that doesn't actually damage me. either answer benefits us, if they do, our damage units aren't being shot, if they don't we get to keep Markerlight benefits.
And pathfinders IN the droneport are gonna be a lot more survivable too as they can't be shot at.

But i've got one from a local cheaper re-seller, so I'm gonna see how it fares!
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Studioworks
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#49 » Oct 20 2017 05:11

Panzer wrote:I'm still promoting my reworked Markerlight table:
1. Re-roll 1s
2. Missiles at users BS, +1 to-hit
3. Ignore Cover
4. +1 to-hit

It basically fused the 2nd and 3rd bonus and made the "ignore movement penalties" into a +1 to-hit because it's basically the same thing just before it was very siuational and very clunky to use because you have to move/advance before shooting Markerlights.
We could even add other stuff for a 5th bonus. Stronger Missiles or whatever.


Let's just take your table in consideration. With 4 markers we can shoot a team of 3 Crisis with 9 Fusions on BS 2+. Too strong. 10 Gun Drones with Drone controller could fire 40 shots S5 on BS 2+ and reroll 1's. This is way too crazy. W could practically shoot every single weapon (and they are strong) in our army on BS 2+. Seems too much imo.

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Panzer
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#50 » Oct 20 2017 05:35

Studioworks wrote:
Panzer wrote:I'm still promoting my reworked Markerlight table:
1. Re-roll 1s
2. Missiles at users BS, +1 to-hit
3. Ignore Cover
4. +1 to-hit

It basically fused the 2nd and 3rd bonus and made the "ignore movement penalties" into a +1 to-hit because it's basically the same thing just before it was very siuational and very clunky to use because you have to move/advance before shooting Markerlights.
We could even add other stuff for a 5th bonus. Stronger Missiles or whatever.


Let's just take your table in consideration. With 4 markers we can shoot a team of 3 Crisis with 9 Fusions on BS 2+. Too strong. 10 Gun Drones with Drone controller could fire 40 shots S5 on BS 2+ and reroll 1's. This is way too crazy. W could practically shoot every single weapon (and they are strong) in our army on BS 2+. Seems too much imo.

I still disagree.
Strong? Yes. Too strong? No. Markerlights are very vulnerable and so far our suits are very expensive.

On the other side of the fence we have:
- Assault Cannon Razorbacks who are 1. Dedicated Transports, 2. have 12 S6 AP-1 shots at BS3+ for just 100p
- Characters with re-roll to hit auras (both kind, 1s and failed ones) and are WAY harder to remove than Markerlights (and don't need to hit their BS4+ shots in the first place), without having to stay stationary and without it being a once-per-game bonus like with our HQs
- Lascannon wielding infantry and tanks cheaper than our comparable stuff, in case of Slaanesh CSM they can even shoot twice
- Slaanesh Terminators who drop in and shoot 20 Plasma shots hitting on 3+, re-rolling 1s with a nearby Lord
- +1 to-wound stratagems
- +1 to-hit psychic powers
- -1 to-hit psychic powers
- 5+ FnP psychic powers
- a ton of other shenanigans

You're talking about the best case where we have all our Markerlights left and managed to get our max bonus. It's literally the best we could possibly pull off in your scenario. If the enemy goes first or deployed out of LoS or in reserves for a beta strike he will aim to remove our Markerlights for sure so we won't get all the bonuses while the other armies buffs are usually on characters and stratagems who aren't as easily countered.
Most rounds you would probably only hit with 1-3 Markerlights and not 4.

Also, our weapons aren't stronger than others. Our Plasma is weaker even. We just happen to be able to put more of those on a single model. Space Marines usually play Devastators or Company/Vanguards Vets where they can give every model a plasma, melta or lascannon as well.
Only our basic weapons are stronger which we usually opt to not take too unless we play a gunline or drone spam list (and the drone spam is a very new concept even).

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Haechi
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#51 » Oct 20 2017 05:57

I also think your reworked table is too strong. +1 to hit should occur only once in it.

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Panzer
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#52 » Oct 20 2017 06:03

Man I wonder how we could ever have been defeated back in 7th when being able to hit on 2+ was the norm for us but still too weak for competetive play unless we used those broken formations.
Seriously, nobody cared about regular T'au units hitting on 2+ back then because while the alpha strike was strong, after removing the Markerlights the regular units weren't THAT good anymore. :D

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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#53 » Oct 20 2017 06:13

Panzer wrote:Man I wonder how we could ever have been defeated back in 7th when being able to hit on 2+ was the norm for us but still too weak for competetive play unless we used those broken formations.
Seriously, nobody cared about regular T'au units hitting on 2+ back then because while the alpha strike was strong, after removing the Markerlights the regular units weren't THAT good anymore. :D


This, I miss 6th ed my 1 unit of 6 Xv8 with twin missile pod and the precise shots equipment (I think that's what ATS used to do but honestly cant remember)
Only needed 4 markerlight to not only fire 12 autocannon hitting on 2's but also ignore cover and noone complained then really.

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Panzer
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#54 » Oct 20 2017 06:21

On a sidenote, when I began playing T'au, I tried to keep Markerlights to a minimum for whatever reason. It was okay. Playing T'au was still way more fun than playing Blood Angels (and stronger anyway).
However when I finally put in a proper amount of Markerlights so I could hit on 2+ with at least one unit....man it wasn't just stronger, it felt so much better to play with the army. That's where I learned to love the level accuracy we could reach and it became one of the main reasons why I loved playing T'au. And I wasn't even using the Mark'O or Drone-Net or the FW stuff. Just plain old Pathfinder (why yes I do own 30 Pathfinder with a good amount of Rail Rifles by now! :D ). Arguably the worst Markerlight source available in 7th.

It's kinda hard to describe but having high accuracy just feels satisfying for an army that can't do much else than shooting. Of course Pathfinder became the prime target of my opponents, but not once one of them complained about me hitting on 2+ being too strong because they could easily counter it. Stuff like Wulfen or Thunderwolve Cavalry were much more of an issue in my group. ^^

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