Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

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mason8ah
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#55 » Oct 20 2017 08:23

Panzer wrote:
mason8ah wrote:
With all other armies using all 4 phases and the likes of marines 3+BS or 2+ re-rolling 1s with a character near, which is SO much more efficient than having to use markerlights.
PLUS add in the fact that we don't have any snipers so can't take out characters where they can take Pathfinders out easily. No sniper drones are even worth considering, 5+ BS or AT BEST 4+ is NOT a sniper, they cannot benefit from markerlights cos if the markerlights can target them, so can much more effective weaponry, and the 1 markerlight the marksman has at 4+BS doesn't do much even if it hits. (There is the forgeworld sniper commander though I really want to field against Guard. But forgeworld can't really count as it's not 'official'.)
Marines have awesome snipers, scouts 2+BS 2+ cover save. A shooty army like Tau with no snipers is disgraceful in my opnion.

So I'm in favour of the markerlight table above, OR making pathfinders snipers (or at least rail rifles) so Sniper drones can use the markerlights to get a 3+BS ignores cover and maybe some seeker missiles on it (ok maybe the seekers are a bit OP)

A bunch of mistakes there:
- Sniper Drones get up to BS3+ (Marksman + Drone Controller)
- Marksman have BS3+ and aren't sniper so they wouldn't be able to shoot at characters anyway
- Marine Scouts have BS3+

Doesn't change the fact that Sniper aren't worth it though. Even the Marine ones are barely worth it.


I must be missing something. Sniper drones are BS 5+, The Firesight Marksman is BS 3+ with a drone uplink "you can add 1 to hit rolls for sniper drones in the shooting phase when they attack a unit visible to a friendly Firesight Marksman."
That would make them a 4+.
(that's what it says on the BattleScribe app anyway)
EDIT - Are you saying stack it with a crisis suit next to it with a drone controller? I wouldn't think that would be a good use of a suit. Maybe a static Missile pod suit. Or a broadside, but they're not worth their points at all.
Last edited by mason8ah on Oct 20 2017 08:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Harkus959
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#56 » Oct 20 2017 08:25

mason8ah wrote:I must be missing something. Sniper drones are BS 5+, The Firesight Marksman is BS 3+ with a drone uplink "you can add 1 to hit rolls for sniper drones in the shooting phase when they attack a unit visible to a friendly Firesight Marksman."
That would make them a 4+.
(that's what it says on the BattleScribe app anyway)


I think he meant with Firesight Marksman, and a Drone Controller (also a +1 to hit) sniper drones become BS 3+ but this requires a piece of equipment, rather than being part of the standard profile/deployment.
He does specifiy "up to" BS 3+, so I think the point he was trying to make is that you can get BS 3+ snipers for T'au (the same accuracy as SM snipers) without having to use markerlights at all.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#57 » Oct 20 2017 08:32

Harkus959 wrote:
mason8ah wrote:I must be missing something. Sniper drones are BS 5+, The Firesight Marksman is BS 3+ with a drone uplink "you can add 1 to hit rolls for sniper drones in the shooting phase when they attack a unit visible to a friendly Firesight Marksman."
That would make them a 4+.
(that's what it says on the BattleScribe app anyway)


I think he meant with Firesight Marksman, and a Drone Controller (also a +1 to hit) sniper drones become BS 3+ but this requires a piece of equipment, rather than being part of the standard profile/deployment.
He does specifiy "up to" BS 3+, so I think the point he was trying to make is that you can get BS 3+ snipers for T'au (the same accuracy as SM snipers) without having to use markerlights at all.


Actually no you're still Bs 5+ with +2 to hit, it doesn't seem to make a difference but I think that's why sniper drones don't get the 6+ mortal wound other snipers get because If you did have a Stealth suit or something nearby and marksman then they would hit on 3+ and cause extra MW on 4+

So if we do get something that triggers an extra effect on 6+ might make sniper drones more usable

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Harkus959
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#58 » Oct 20 2017 08:35

mason8ah wrote:EDIT - Are you saying stack it with a crisis suit next to it with a drone controller? I wouldn't think that would be a good use of a suit. Maybe a static Missile pod suit. Or a broadside, but they're not worth their points at all.


It's worth noting that the sniper drones don't have to be near the marksman to gain the bonus, they just have to be shooting at something he has LoS for. So, if you have a suit in your army that already has a drone controller (for gun drone buffs presumably) feel free to have your sniper drones tag along with that suit. As long as they're shooting at a target visible to the marksman, they'll get the +1 from the drone uplink, and the +1 from the drone controller and they still have saviour protocols so they can even pitch in to protect the suit if need be.

PLUS longshot pulse rifles are still rapid fire, so following the suit around is much more likely to let you pump out twice as many shots at enemy characters, at (effectively) BS3+.

That point you make about the bonus being to your "to hit" rolls and not your BS is a good one Nymphomanius and something I hadn't considered before. Doesn't really make a difference to your accuracy for the most part, but it will affect those specific situations where you need a roll a 6+, etc.

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Panzer
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#59 » Oct 20 2017 08:47

Nymphomanius wrote:
Harkus959 wrote:
mason8ah wrote:I must be missing something. Sniper drones are BS 5+, The Firesight Marksman is BS 3+ with a drone uplink "you can add 1 to hit rolls for sniper drones in the shooting phase when they attack a unit visible to a friendly Firesight Marksman."
That would make them a 4+.
(that's what it says on the BattleScribe app anyway)


I think he meant with Firesight Marksman, and a Drone Controller (also a +1 to hit) sniper drones become BS 3+ but this requires a piece of equipment, rather than being part of the standard profile/deployment.
He does specifiy "up to" BS 3+, so I think the point he was trying to make is that you can get BS 3+ snipers for T'au (the same accuracy as SM snipers) without having to use markerlights at all.


Actually no you're still Bs 5+ with +2 to hit, it doesn't seem to make a difference but I think that's why sniper drones don't get the 6+ mortal wound other snipers get because If you did have a Stealth suit or something nearby and marksman then they would hit on 3+ and cause extra MW on 4+

So if we do get something that triggers an extra effect on 6+ might make sniper drones more usable

You're right but for the normal hitting it's the same. You hit on 3+ with a Marksman and a Drone Controller nearby.
Also that's a rather weak reason for not getting Mortal wounds on 6+. If they wanted to avoid the Marksman and Drone Controller to let us deal Mortal wounds on 4+, they could have written it like "deals mortal wounds on 8+" or "7+" even. Or something else. So many ways to adjust things. However I do think Mortal wounds on 4+ would fix Sniper weapons somewhat. :P

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Draaen
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#60 » Oct 20 2017 08:49

Panzer wrote:I'm still promoting my reworked Markerlight table:
1. Re-roll 1s
2. Missiles at users BS, +1 to-hit
3. Ignore Cover
4. +1 to-hit

It basically fused the 2nd and 3rd bonus and made the "ignore movement penalties" into a +1 to-hit because it's basically the same thing just before it was very siuational and very clunky to use because you have to move/advance before shooting Markerlights.
We could even add other stuff for a 5th bonus. Stronger Missiles or whatever.


Like a lot of other people I believe it would be too easy to achieve the +2 BS. I actually think the current table is not good but is actually pretty close if it could be tweaked a bit. Consider what bonuses we get.

1 Markerlight - Generic great buff
2 Markerlight - Situational buff but one that needs to be low to make a one use piece of wargear function
3 Markerlight - Situational buff that is good when it occurs
4 Markerlight - Situational buff that is very good when it occurs
5 Markerlight - Great capstone buff and a major incentive to go all the way.

The problem isn't 1 and 5 it's 2,3 and 4 are so mediocre and situational. What if it was something like this?

1 Markerlight - Generic good buff
2 Markerlight - Situational buffs that need to be reliable to enable a playstyle
3 Markerlight - Generic good buff
4 Markerlight - Situational buff that is very good when it occurs
5 Markerlight - Great capstone buff and a major incentive to go all the way.

In my mind it would go something like this

1 Markerlight - Re-roll 1's to hit
2 Markerlight - Fire Missiles at users BS, Ignore penalties for moving with heavy weapons and advancing with assault
3 Markerlight - Re-roll 1's to wound (Could represent head shots or finding the chink in the armor)
4 Markerlight - Ignore Cover
5 Markerlight - +1 to Hit

I like this design because it makes every markerlight relevant. It also means you could realistically plan to have your heavy weapons move and shoot or assault weapons advance and shoot without the penalty. Two hits are easy enough to get so you would be able to reliably expect to be able to get it off. It's like +1 to hit when you use the abilities and helps us out in our movement phase. 3 was the hardest to find another generic buff that was different from the others and made sense and honestly I'm not super sold on it. But re-rolling 1's to wound would be something people would want to stretch for especially for their big guns. It could even be an additional -1 AP on a wound roll of 6 or something. Then the rest of the table is fine. I think a larger table is good and preferable so long as everything stays relevant.
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Panzer
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#61 » Oct 20 2017 08:53

Draaen wrote:
Panzer wrote:I'm still promoting my reworked Markerlight table:
1. Re-roll 1s
2. Missiles at users BS, +1 to-hit
3. Ignore Cover
4. +1 to-hit

It basically fused the 2nd and 3rd bonus and made the "ignore movement penalties" into a +1 to-hit because it's basically the same thing just before it was very siuational and very clunky to use because you have to move/advance before shooting Markerlights.
We could even add other stuff for a 5th bonus. Stronger Missiles or whatever.


Like a lot of other people I believe it would be too easy to achieve the +2 BS. I actually think the current table is not good but is actually pretty close if it could be tweaked a bit. Consider what bonuses we get.

1 Markerlight - Generic great buff
2 Markerlight - Situational buff but one that needs to be low to make a one use piece of wargear function
3 Markerlight - Situational buff that is good when it occurs
4 Markerlight - Situational buff that is very good when it occurs
5 Markerlight - Great capstone buff and a major incentive to go all the way.

The problem isn't 1 and 5 it's 2,3 and 4 are so mediocre and situational. What if it was something like this?

1 Markerlight - Generic good buff
2 Markerlight - Situational buffs that need to be reliable to enable a playstyle
3 Markerlight - Generic good buff
4 Markerlight - Situational buff that is very good when it occurs
5 Markerlight - Great capstone buff and a major incentive to go all the way.

In my mind it would go something like this

1 Markerlight - Re-roll 1's to hit
2 Markerlight - Fire Missiles at users BS, Ignore penalties for moving with heavy weapons and advancing with assault
3 Markerlight - Re-roll 1's to wound (Could represent head shots or finding the chink in the armor)
4 Markerlight - Ignore Cover
5 Markerlight - +1 to Hit

I like this design because it makes every markerlight relevant. It also means you could realistically plan to have your heavy weapons move and shoot or assault weapons advance and shoot without the penalty. Two hits are easy enough to get so you would be able to reliably expect to be able to get it off. It's like +1 to hit when you use the abilities and helps us out in our movement phase. 3 was the hardest to find another generic buff that was different from the others and made sense and honestly I'm not super sold on it. But re-rolling 1's to wound would be something people would want to stretch for especially for their big guns. It could even be an additional -1 AP on a wound roll of 6 or something. Then the rest of the table is fine. I think a larger table is good and preferable so long as everything stays relevant.

Your table wouldn't fix the main point of a Markerlight table rework though. The point was to get more reliably a +1 to-hit. On yours it's still the 5th bonus. The +1 to-hit shouldn't be the great capstone, it should be the main point of shooting Markerlights at all. To make T'au work with BS4+ it has to be somewhere on the middle of the table. 2nd or 3rd bonus.
Also I'm still not convinced that my table would be too strong. Like, at all.

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Harkus959
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#62 » Oct 20 2017 09:02

Panzer wrote:Also that's a rather weak reason for not getting Mortal wounds on 6+. If they wanted to avoid the Marksman and Drone Controller to let us deal Mortal wounds on 4+, they could have written it like "deals mortal wounds on 8+" or "7+" even. Or something else. So many ways to adjust things. However I do think Mortal wounds on 4+ would fix Sniper weapons somewhat. :P


The simplest would probably be to say "inflicts an additional mortal wound on an unmodifed to-hit roll of 6". Although, sniper weapons in other armies can inflict the mortal wounds from modified rules (or at least, there's nothing explicitly stating that they can't, and the fact that it's a roll of 6+ rather than a roll of 6 shows that they're definitely allowing for modifiers as it's impossible to roll higher than 6 on a D6) so technically it shouldn't be any different for the T'au. I just don't think other armies have as many ways of gaining to-hit bonuses.

Still, if the mortal wound represents hitting a weak spot/critical location/vital organ/etc, it shoudn't matter how we achieve that 6+, if we make our guns accurate enough to hit those weak points, we should still get the bonus for hitting those weak points.

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Draaen
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#63 » Oct 20 2017 09:11

Panzer wrote:
Draaen wrote:
Panzer wrote:I'm still promoting my reworked Markerlight table:
1. Re-roll 1s
2. Missiles at users BS, +1 to-hit
3. Ignore Cover
4. +1 to-hit

It basically fused the 2nd and 3rd bonus and made the "ignore movement penalties" into a +1 to-hit because it's basically the same thing just before it was very siuational and very clunky to use because you have to move/advance before shooting Markerlights.
We could even add other stuff for a 5th bonus. Stronger Missiles or whatever.


Like a lot of other people I believe it would be too easy to achieve the +2 BS. I actually think the current table is not good but is actually pretty close if it could be tweaked a bit. Consider what bonuses we get.

1 Markerlight - Generic great buff
2 Markerlight - Situational buff but one that needs to be low to make a one use piece of wargear function
3 Markerlight - Situational buff that is good when it occurs
4 Markerlight - Situational buff that is very good when it occurs
5 Markerlight - Great capstone buff and a major incentive to go all the way.

The problem isn't 1 and 5 it's 2,3 and 4 are so mediocre and situational. What if it was something like this?

1 Markerlight - Generic good buff
2 Markerlight - Situational buffs that need to be reliable to enable a playstyle
3 Markerlight - Generic good buff
4 Markerlight - Situational buff that is very good when it occurs
5 Markerlight - Great capstone buff and a major incentive to go all the way.

In my mind it would go something like this

1 Markerlight - Re-roll 1's to hit
2 Markerlight - Fire Missiles at users BS, Ignore penalties for moving with heavy weapons and advancing with assault
3 Markerlight - Re-roll 1's to wound (Could represent head shots or finding the chink in the armor)
4 Markerlight - Ignore Cover
5 Markerlight - +1 to Hit

I like this design because it makes every markerlight relevant. It also means you could realistically plan to have your heavy weapons move and shoot or assault weapons advance and shoot without the penalty. Two hits are easy enough to get so you would be able to reliably expect to be able to get it off. It's like +1 to hit when you use the abilities and helps us out in our movement phase. 3 was the hardest to find another generic buff that was different from the others and made sense and honestly I'm not super sold on it. But re-rolling 1's to wound would be something people would want to stretch for especially for their big guns. It could even be an additional -1 AP on a wound roll of 6 or something. Then the rest of the table is fine. I think a larger table is good and preferable so long as everything stays relevant.

Your table wouldn't fix the main point of a Markerlight table rework though. The point was to get more reliably a +1 to-hit. On yours it's still the 5th bonus. The +1 to-hit shouldn't be the great capstone, it should be the main point of shooting Markerlights at all. To make T'au work with BS4+ it has to be somewhere on the middle of the table. 2nd or 3rd bonus.
Also I'm still not convinced that my table would be too strong. Like, at all.


Okay potentially I presented the wrong generic option for number 3. You say you want +1 to hit you want to hit but what I think you mean is you want to hit more. Instead of +1 at 3 why not Re-roll all misses? That's a good table of buffs and a natural progression to the Re-roll 1's. Or move +1 to hit to 3 and re-roll all misses to 5? That's a strong table.

My point is the problem with the current table is that we don't get anything really good except at 1 and 5 and 2 is far too limited and 3 while good is not enough to reliably plan around it. Merge the current 2 and 3 and make the new 3 attractive and the table looks pretty good to me.

If all 5 markerlight bonuses were good and relevant why would you not want 5 potential buffs vs 4?
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Panzer
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#64 » Oct 20 2017 09:14

Please don't try to interpret what I'm saying. I said exactly what I meant.

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Draaen
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#65 » Oct 20 2017 09:33

Panzer wrote:Please don't try to interpret what I'm saying. I said exactly what I meant.


Sorry didn't mean to offend.
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Panzer
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#66 » Oct 20 2017 09:34

No offense taken. ;)

Supershrew
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#67 » Oct 20 2017 09:52

I’m afraid I have defected from tau and have started a death guard army until the codex comes out . With more and more armies having access to -1 to hit Buffs ( raven guard etc) I just don’t think bs 4+ can cut it . It is ridiculous that a riptide at 300 point plus is only hitting on 5+ against loads of armies . Whilst I think you can play tau semi competitively your lists options are too restricted and I got bored of playing commanders and drones. Our big suits need serious rebalancing and without psychic powers, combat or allies we are too one dimensional to either be that competitive or fun. I would argue that we are the faction most in need of a codex right now, given that loads of the index is not playable. My most annoying weakness is that everything we have , other factions have it but better. Our buffs are poor and don’t fit with a mobile army . Markerlights are poor and struggle to live past turn 2 .when marines get rerolls 3+ and we need 5 markerlight hits to get that you know you have problems .

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Panzer
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#68 » Oct 20 2017 09:56

Supershrew wrote:I’m afraid I have defected from tau and have started a death guard army until the codex comes out . With more and more armies having access to -1 to hit Buffs ( raven guard etc) I just don’t think bs 4+ can cut it . It is ridiculous that a riptide at 300 point plus is only hitting on 5+ against loads of armies . Whilst I think you can play tau semi competitively your lists options are too restricted and I got bored of playing commanders and drones. Our big suits need serious rebalancing and without psychic powers, combat or allies we are too one dimensional to either be that competitive or fun. I would argue that we are the faction most in need of a codex right now, given that loads of the index is not playable. My most annoying weakness is that everything we have , other factions have it but better. Our buffs are poor and don’t fit with a mobile army . Markerlights are poor and struggle to live past turn 2 .when marines get rerolls 3+ and we need 5 markerlight hits to get that you know you have problems .

To rub salt into the wound, Craftworld Eldar just got a -1 to hit at >12" Attribute as well and it even applies to their Knights and Flyer. Oh boy I can't wait to hit stuff on 5+ and 6+!

Supershrew
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#69 » Oct 20 2017 10:20

I mean people go on about drones being amazing but only being able to shoot the nearest target is annoying and the leadership of 6 is brutal .Sure you can have an ethereal babysitting them but that limits the mobility and you can’t have one ethereal babysitting more then 2 squads and have them hit prime targets . In my experience the drones get whittled down pretty easily and then morale takes the rest . Previously I went on about flamer crisis Suits but have found that they tend to get killed immediately . If the stealth suits get taken out before they drop the homing beacon then they are out of range and do nothing . I serious think that all our suits will have to go to 3+ or we have a mechanism to ignore -1 because hitting on 5+ for a shooting army is an absolute joke . When guard veterans have a better ballistic skill then a 400 point storm surge supposedly with the best targeting system in the universe then something is badly amiss. As you can tell I’m somewhat annoyed especially as both chaos and imperium have access to all manner of goodies to fill any gaps and we have the kroot who are useless and die horribly ,being one of the worst troop choices in the game when it come to living past turn 2. I would be happy if the kroot are squatted and we are given either more tau or a decent ally in the codex.

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mason8ah
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#70 » Oct 20 2017 10:22

Arka0415 wrote:Forget everything you know about Tau, because it's a whole different galaxy now.


OK, this thread has become a MarkerLight discussion little bit.
I've started a new thread with interesting thought on what Arka0415 said. It's a whole different galaxy now

Check it out:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26682

Feel free to discuss away. But my reason for starting this topic has been fulfilled. So thank you so much to everyone who's contributed. It's helped me SO much and I'm a much better Tau player now!
mason8ah

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mason8ah
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#71 » Oct 20 2017 10:28

Panzer wrote:
Supershrew wrote:I’m afraid I have defected from tau and have started a death guard army until the codex comes out . With more and more armies having access to -1 to hit Buffs ( raven guard etc) I just don’t think bs 4+ can cut it . It is ridiculous that a riptide at 300 point plus is only hitting on 5+ against loads of armies . Whilst I think you can play tau semi competitively your lists options are too restricted and I got bored of playing commanders and drones. Our big suits need serious rebalancing and without psychic powers, combat or allies we are too one dimensional to either be that competitive or fun. I would argue that we are the faction most in need of a codex right now, given that loads of the index is not playable. My most annoying weakness is that everything we have , other factions have it but better. Our buffs are poor and don’t fit with a mobile army . Markerlights are poor and struggle to live past turn 2 .when marines get rerolls 3+ and we need 5 markerlight hits to get that you know you have problems .

To rub salt into the wound, Craftworld Eldar just got a -1 to hit at >12" Attribute as well and it even applies to their Knights and Flyer. Oh boy I can't wait to hit stuff on 5+ and 6+!


Coming back to my original problem with Harlequins, they have this -1 to-hit too. They're VERY FAST, so they're on you like a rash, and you can only hit them on 5+ in that 1 turn you may actually be able to shoot them in. The rest of the game you'll be clubbing them with butt of a pulse ride.
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Panzer
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Re: Tau's most annoying weakness. Thoughts?

Post#72 » Oct 20 2017 10:29

mason8ah wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Supershrew wrote:I’m afraid I have defected from tau and have started a death guard army until the codex comes out . With more and more armies having access to -1 to hit Buffs ( raven guard etc) I just don’t think bs 4+ can cut it . It is ridiculous that a riptide at 300 point plus is only hitting on 5+ against loads of armies . Whilst I think you can play tau semi competitively your lists options are too restricted and I got bored of playing commanders and drones. Our big suits need serious rebalancing and without psychic powers, combat or allies we are too one dimensional to either be that competitive or fun. I would argue that we are the faction most in need of a codex right now, given that loads of the index is not playable. My most annoying weakness is that everything we have , other factions have it but better. Our buffs are poor and don’t fit with a mobile army . Markerlights are poor and struggle to live past turn 2 .when marines get rerolls 3+ and we need 5 markerlight hits to get that you know you have problems .

To rub salt into the wound, Craftworld Eldar just got a -1 to hit at >12" Attribute as well and it even applies to their Knights and Flyer. Oh boy I can't wait to hit stuff on 5+ and 6+!


Coming back to my original problem with Harlequins, they have this -1 to-hit too. They're VERY FAST, so they're on you like a rash, and you can only hit them on 5+ in that 1 turn you may actually be able to shoot them in. The rest of the game you'll be clubbing them with butt of a pulse ride.

With infantry, yes. Just one more reason why Gun Drones are superior.

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