Shield drones. I'm totally confused.

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mason8ah
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Shield drones. I'm totally confused.

Post#1 » Oct 26 2017 01:12

Hello Tau'va!

I've searched previous topics and I can't seem to get my head around them. Can someone please explain them to me in plain English layman's terms (no abbreviations please, I don't know what they mean yet, e.g. RAW etc.)

So here's what I think I know.

1. All drones that are taken with battlesuits are treated as a separate unit when they enter the battlefield.

2. Shield drones worth taking on a commander. as they're treated as a separate unit, if they go in front of him, the commander, being a character, can't be targeted until the shield drones with their 4+ invun in front of him are gone.

3. They are not worth taking on crisis suits taken as an elite choice because they are treated as a separate unit, so the enemy can just target the suits and never target the drones just bypassing them entirely.

4. They can however use saviour protocols when with elites, so they get their 5+ feel no pain. But then their 4+ invun save is totally wasted.

5. There's really no point in taking shield drones with elite choices as you might as well take gun drones for more S5 dakka shots and allocate wounds to them instead even though they have no feel no pain.

6. 5+ feel no pain for shield drones that deal no damage isn't worth the 8pts for just a 2/6 chance of being able to allocate a wound to it next time.

Am I right there? If so why are they even an option for Elites? I swear in 7th (which i briefly played) they worked better.
Or have I missed something and I'm wrong?

Any help greatly appreciated as I get very confused any time someone targets suits with shield drones.

Thanks!
mason8ah

Nothing fancy.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Shield drones. I'm totally confused.

Post#2 » Oct 26 2017 01:21

The purpose of allocating wounds from crisis teams is you can choose what to allocate, a wound from a bolter or almost any D1 weapons just take it on the suits but a Lascannon round? 1/3 chance to ignore that tyvm.

Yes gun drones are better but basically 1 heavy bolters volley kills 1 gun drone (0.66*0.66*0.66)*3=86% chance to kill so that your opponent can more easily wait for the heavy weapons to kill your suits

Vs shield drones (0.66*0.66*0.5*0.66)*3=43% chance to kill so would need to pump twice as many heavy bolters into shield drones to kill them, especially useful if you're choosing to use missile pod suits as gun drones will more often than not be out of range

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Panzer
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Re: Shield drones. I'm totally confused.

Post#3 » Oct 26 2017 01:21

mason8ah wrote:Hello Tau'va!

I've searched previous topics and I can't seem to get my head around them. Can someone please explain them to me in plain English layman's terms (no abbreviations please, I don't know what they mean yet, e.g. RAW etc.)

So here's what I think I know.

1. All drones that are taken with battlesuits are treated as a separate unit when they enter the battlefield.

2. Shield drones worth taking on a commander. as they're treated as a separate unit, if they go in front of him, the commander, being a character, can't be targeted until the shield drones with their 4+ invun in front of him are gone.

3. They are not worth taking on crisis suits taken as an elite choice because they are treated as a separate unit, so the enemy can just target the suits and never target the drones just bypassing them entirely.

4. They can however use saviour protocols when with elites, so they get their 5+ feel no pain. But then their 4+ invun save is totally wasted.

5. There's really no point in taking shield drones with elite choices as you might as well take gun drones for more S5 dakka shots and allocate wounds to them instead even though they have no feel no pain.

6. 5+ feel no pain for shield drones that deal no damage isn't worth the 8pts for just a 2/6 chance of being able to allocate a wound to it next time.

Am I right there? If so why are they even an option for Elites? I swear in 7th (which i briefly played) they worked better.
Or have I missed something and I'm wrong?

Any help greatly appreciated as I get very confused any time someone targets suits with shield drones.

Thanks!

1. Right

2. Right

3. Debateable. I'll take them on my Flamer Crisis all the time.

4. They can always use Saviour Protocols if a Battlesuit or Infantry gets wounded. That's right you can't take any armor or invulnerable saves against Mortal wounds (which is what you take when using Saviour Protocol), but Feel no Pain like abilities can be used.

5. Again, debateable. It's a tradeoff between more durability and more damage output.

6. It's very worth it against the right weapons. Being able to tank two or more Lascannon shots with the same drone is infinitely much better than having to sacrifice a Drone for each of those shots.

No clue where you get the idea from that Shield Drones aren't worth it for regular units.

Watcher on the wall
Shas'Saal
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Re: Shield drones. I'm totally confused.

Post#4 » Oct 26 2017 01:31

I'll take them on my Flamer Crisis all the time.


Any particular reason they are better with Flamer Crisis than with other loadouts?

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mason8ah
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Re: Shield drones. I'm totally confused.

Post#5 » Oct 26 2017 01:45

Panzer wrote:3. Debateable. I'll take them on my Flamer Crisis all the time.

4. They can always use Saviour Protocols if a Battlesuit or Infantry gets wounded. That's right you can't take any armor or invulnerable saves against Mortal wounds (which is what you take when using Saviour Protocol), but Feel no Pain like abilities can be used.

5. Again, debateable. It's a tradeoff between more durability and more damage output.

6. It's very worth it against the right weapons. Being able to tank two or more Lascannon shots with the same drone is infinitely much better than having to sacrifice a Drone for each of those shots.

No clue where you get the idea from that Shield Drones aren't worth it for regular units.


First off thank you for your replies, I've definitely seen some use for them now.

So for your crisis flamer teams, would you rather 3 flamers each and 6 shield drones, or 2 flamers + shield generator and 6 (or a mix) of gun drones?

Nymphomanius wrote:The purpose of allocating wounds from crisis teams is you can choose what to allocate, a wound from a bolter or almost any D1 weapons just take it on the suits but a Lascannon round? 1/3 chance to ignore that tyvm.

Yes gun drones are better but basically 1 heavy bolters volley kills 1 gun drone (0.66*0.66*0.66)*3=86% chance to kill so that your opponent can more easily wait for the heavy weapons to kill your suits

Vs shield drones (0.66*0.66*0.5*0.66)*3=43% chance to kill so would need to pump twice as many heavy bolters into shield drones to kill them, especially useful if you're choosing to use missile pod suits as gun drones will more often than not be out of range


The mathhammer here is way beyond me, so I have no idea what those numbers mean, but I'll take them as correct! I see now that 'IF' a drone passes a feel no pain for something like a lascannon or other high strength & AP weapon then they can take another one. If it does not pass its feel no pain, it might as well have been a gun drone, but at least it the shield drone had a 5+ chance not to die.
So for lasgun fire, you wouldn't use saviour protocols to move a wound to a shield drone unless it's going to kill your suit right?

thank you to you both :)
mason8ah

Nothing fancy.

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Panzer
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Re: Shield drones. I'm totally confused.

Post#6 » Oct 26 2017 02:03

Watcher on the wall wrote:
I'll take them on my Flamer Crisis all the time.


Any particular reason they are better with Flamer Crisis than with other loadouts?

I never said they are better on Flamer Crisis than on other. I just like the unit that has to get and stay close to the enemy to be more durable, that's all. ;)

mason8ah wrote:
Panzer wrote:3. Debateable. I'll take them on my Flamer Crisis all the time.

4. They can always use Saviour Protocols if a Battlesuit or Infantry gets wounded. That's right you can't take any armor or invulnerable saves against Mortal wounds (which is what you take when using Saviour Protocol), but Feel no Pain like abilities can be used.

5. Again, debateable. It's a tradeoff between more durability and more damage output.

6. It's very worth it against the right weapons. Being able to tank two or more Lascannon shots with the same drone is infinitely much better than having to sacrifice a Drone for each of those shots.

No clue where you get the idea from that Shield Drones aren't worth it for regular units.


First off thank you for your replies, I've definitely seen some use for them now.

So for your crisis flamer teams, would you rather 3 flamers each and 6 shield drones, or 2 flamers + shield generator and 6 (or a mix) of gun drones?

I'd definitely prefer taking 3 Flamer + Shield Drones.
Shield Drones are obviously more durable in any way but the main thing I don't like about Shield Gen on Crisis + Gun Drones is that you'll get in situations where you aren't sure what to do. Take the Lascannon shot on the Crisis for the 4++ but risk taking 1d6 damage (aka usually losing a Suit) or sacrificing a Drone (which would reduce that units damage output). It's too much of a gamble for me and most of the time you lose that gamble.

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nix0n
Shas'La
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Re: Shield drones. I'm totally confused.

Post#7 » Oct 26 2017 02:26

Wait... now I am confused.
I am really sorry to intrude but now after reading your conversation I am not quite sure if I understood it correctly.

No matter what drone you take, when it takes a wound for your friendly infantry/battlesuit unit it always cancels that wound on a 5+?
I don't understand, unless someone targets the shield drone separately it has 4+ ivuln. But why would someone do that if the drones always stay close to other units you would easily get rid of them by forcing Tau player inflicting mortal wounds on them on a 5+
It appears shield drones get no benefit at the savior protocol throws :?
Cheers!
Nix

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mason8ah
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Re: Shield drones. I'm totally confused.

Post#8 » Oct 26 2017 02:30

nix0n wrote:Wait... now I am confused.
I am really sorry to intrude but now after reading your conversation I am not quite sure if I understood it correctly.

No matter what drone you take, when it takes a wound for your friendly infantry/battlesuit unit it always cancels that wound on a 5+?
I don't understand, unless someone targets the shield drone separately it has 4+ ivuln. But why would someone do that if the drones always stay close to other units you would easily get rid of them by forcing Tau player inflicting mortal wounds on them on a 5+
It appears shield drones get no benefit at the savior protocol throws :?


As far as I understand it, only shield drones get a 5+ feel no pain. Gun drones do not. So unless the shield drones are with a commander. Their 4+ invuln doesn't get used unless the enemy specifically targets the shield drone. But you can alocate wounds to shield drones from high damage weapons like lascannons that deal D6 wounds, on a 5+ it ignores it totally and suits and drone are take no damage.
mason8ah

Nothing fancy.

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Panzer
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Re: Shield drones. I'm totally confused.

Post#9 » Oct 26 2017 02:30

nix0n wrote:Wait... now I am confused.
I am really sorry to intrude but now after reading your conversation I am not quite sure if I understood it correctly.

No matter what drone you take, when it takes a wound for your friendly infantry/battlesuit unit it always cancels that wound on a 5+?
I don't understand, unless someone targets the shield drone separately it has 4+ ivuln. But why would someone do that if the drones always stay close to other units you would easily get rid of them by forcing Tau player inflicting mortal wounds on them on a 5+
It appears shield drones get no benefit at the savior protocol throws :?

LOL no. Only the Shield Drone has the 5+ FnP. Other Drones simply take the Mortal wound and die when using Saviour Protocols.

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nix0n
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Shield drones. I'm totally confused.

Post#10 » Oct 26 2017 02:38

Oh gosh!
How did I not get it the first time reading this?

Thank you very much for helping me out :D
Cheers!
Nix

Nymphomanius
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Re: Shield drones. I'm totally confused.

Post#11 » Oct 26 2017 02:52

mason8ah wrote:So for lasgun fire, you wouldn't use saviour protocols to move a wound to a shield drone unless it's going to kill your suit right?

thank you to you both :)


Correct because you have a 1/3 chance to save a shield drone wound regardless of Str or Ap etc

But ap0 guns like bolters or lasgun you get a 3+ save on your suits 2+ if you happen to find suitable cover which goes from 1/3 to 2/3 saved.

Though my post was talking more about the odds of a drone surviving direct fire to make way for heavy weapons.

To keep a heavy bolters example I'll break it down for you

I assumed space marine firing but for this I'll use guardsmen incase you play against them more often it doesn't matter much anyway as only initial accuracy is affected.

Hit on a 4+ so 50%
Wounds on 3+ so 66% (now 33% of total shots)

Vs a gun drone only get a 5+ save so 66% of wounds kill (just under 22% of total shots will kill a gun drone or 1/5 so if your opponent fires 30 shots he will kill all 6 gun drones leaving your suits unprotected)

Vs shield drone get full 4+ inv always so 50% get through (already chopped the total down to just over 16% of shots)
Shield drones then get their 5+ FNP roll which lets 66% through (which leaves us at basically 11% chance to kill a shield drone or 1/9 so to kill 6 shield drones would need 54 heavy bolter shots instead)

So vs ap1 weapons shield drones are almost twice as effective as gun drones.

I hope that breakdown helps a bit :D

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Panzer
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Re: Shield drones. I'm totally confused.

Post#12 » Oct 26 2017 02:55

Nymphomanius wrote:
mason8ah wrote:So for lasgun fire, you wouldn't use saviour protocols to move a wound to a shield drone unless it's going to kill your suit right?

thank you to you both :)


Correct because you have a 1/3 chance to save a shield drone wound regardless of Str or Ap etc

But ap0 guns like bolters or lasgun you get a 3+ save on your suits 2+ if you happen to find suitable cover which goes from 1/3 to 2/3 saved.

A sidenote: getting Cover with Crisis is not that easy, since they aren't Infantry. Stealth Suits are our only infantry Battlesuits (which makes them even more awesome).

Nymphomanius
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Re: Shield drones. I'm totally confused.

Post#13 » Oct 26 2017 03:05

Panzer wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
mason8ah wrote:So for lasgun fire, you wouldn't use saviour protocols to move a wound to a shield drone unless it's going to kill your suit right?

thank you to you both :)


Correct because you have a 1/3 chance to save a shield drone wound regardless of Str or Ap etc

But ap0 guns like bolters or lasgun you get a 3+ save on your suits 2+ if you happen to find suitable cover which goes from 1/3 to 2/3 saved.

A sidenote: getting Cover with Crisis is not that easy, since they aren't Infantry. Stealth Suits are our only infantry Battlesuits (which makes them even more awesome).


To be fair that's why I wrote if you happen to find suitable cover because it's rare that we get it.
I'm hoping they will get battlesuit infantry in the codex as terminators and even ogryns count as infantry

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Haechi
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Re: Shield drones. I'm totally confused.

Post#14 » Oct 26 2017 04:05

In my experience Shield Drones are amazing and always drive my opponents crazy. No army has unlimited amount of fire, and as long as you have enough Shield drones, they usually can't both overcome the drones and what they're protecting in one turn. I've withstood entire shooting phases losing nothing but Shield Drones.

Look at it this way: in 8th edition, whoever goes first often has a huge advantage. Having 12-20 Shield Drones in multiple small units spread around all your big suits is like buying yourself a pass on the 1st turn, and ensuring your survival. It's a nightmare for your opponents, and the more big guns they have, the more you'll laugh.

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Panzer
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Re: Shield drones. I'm totally confused.

Post#15 » Oct 26 2017 04:11

It's also fun to mix one or two Shield Drones in your Gun Drone squad to drive an opponent that tries to get rid of the Gun Drones insane since if he shoots at that unit you can use the Shield Drones 4++ and the 5+++. :D

Nymphomanius
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Re: Shield drones. I'm totally confused.

Post#16 » Oct 26 2017 04:32

Panzer wrote:It's also fun to mix one or two Shield Drones in your Gun Drone squad to drive an opponent that tries to get rid of the Gun Drones insane since if he shoots at that unit you can use the Shield Drones 4++ and the 5+++. :D

Or put an ethereal nearby for a 4++/5+++/6++++ :D

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Panzer
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Re: Shield drones. I'm totally confused.

Post#17 » Oct 26 2017 04:42

Nah, I won't pay points for a 6+ save of any kind. Just not worth it.

szeszej
Shas
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Re: Shield drones. I'm totally confused.

Post#18 » Oct 26 2017 05:00

Just a quick question, can you redirect mortal wounds to drones using savior protocols?

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