Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Use this area for all discussions of the "gaming" aspect of 40K/Tau.
User avatar
Juicy Fruit
Shas
Posts: 30

Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#55 » Nov 03 2017 04:57

My suggestion is based on the pathfinders hitting with their markerlights on a 2+ regardless of hit modifiers. I'd even ditch the "if 5 or more target the same thing" bit and keep it a flat 2+ hit as long as they don't move.

Markerlights provide a benefit and should have a tax. The current tax is too high for what they provide. Makes sense pathfinders would be the best at using them.
Primum conatus pessimi

User avatar
AenarIT
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 55

Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#56 » Nov 07 2017 05:09

My two cents:

- Markerlights are immune to penalties To Hit. Using the base BS of the model works to differentiate between Drones and Pathfinders (and other units), so I would not make them hit on a fixed value like 3+.
- Seeker Missiles always use the base BS. They could cost a little bit more (8-10 points). D-missiles could work this way as well.

And rework of the ML table that could be something like this:
1 : Reroll 1s, Seeker Missiles (and maybe D-missiles too) are immune to penalties To Hit
2 : No Penalties for moving and firing [...]
3 : Ignore Cover benefits
4 : +1 BS
5 : Ignore penalties To Hit

I honestly think that the iconic shooting faction needs a way (either through the ML table or through a stratagem) to ignore the penalties To Hit that too many different units currently have.

User avatar
Studioworks
Shas'Saal
Posts: 135

Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#57 » Nov 07 2017 06:37

I read this forum and people here all the time writes about units that have -1 to hit. It seems that it turns out that every single unit in the game have this -1 and that we are all screwed up because of this. It seems that this is really a big thing right now. To be honest I didn't play against any single unit with this modifier and really can't see why all of you are making this fuss around it. Maybe because I play only against Ultramarines, Tyranids, Admech, Guard and Grey Knights? Where are all these -1 units?

Nymphomanius
Shas'Saal
Posts: 368
Contact:

Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#58 » Nov 07 2017 07:42

Studioworks wrote:I read this forum and people here all the time writes about units that have -1 to hit. It seems that it turns out that every single unit in the game have this -1 and that we are all screwed up because of this. It seems that this is really a big thing right now. To be honest I didn't play against any single unit with this modifier and really can't see why all of you are making this fuss around it. Maybe because I play only against Ultramarines, Tyranids, Admech, Guard and Grey Knights? Where are all these -1 units?


Alpha Legion, raven guard, stygies VII (Admech), eldar altaioc, guard Psyker can give it, death guard, venomthropes. I'm sure there's loads more I can't believe you haven't encountered any?

Nymphomanius
Shas'Saal
Posts: 368
Contact:

Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#59 » Nov 07 2017 07:50

AenarIT wrote:My two cents:

- Markerlights are immune to penalties To Hit. Using the base BS of the model works to differentiate between Drones and Pathfinders (and other units), so I would not make them hit on a fixed value like 3+.
This is good I like this
- Seeker Missiles always use the base BS. They could cost a little bit more (8-10 points). D-missiles could work this way as well.
I think instead of that adding them more to markerlight table would be better
And rework of the ML table that could be something like this:
1 : Reroll 1s, Seeker Missiles (and maybe D-missiles too) are immune to penalties To Hit
2 : No Penalties for moving and firing [...]
3 : Ignore Cover benefits
4 : +1 BS
5 : Ignore penalties To Hit

I honestly think that the iconic shooting faction needs a way (either through the ML table or through a stratagem) to ignore the penalties To Hit that too many different units currently have.


Here's my idea for what revised markerlight table should be. (with ML always using base BS to hit)

1. Reroll 1's (it's simple and it works)
2. Ignore penalties for moving and firing, Seeker + destroyer hit on unmodified 4+
3. +1 to hit, and ignore cover bonuses
4. Ignore modifiers to hit, Seeker + destroyer hit on unmodified 3+
5. +1 to hit
6. Hits of 7+ generate an additional shot, the extra shots cannot create additional shots, Seeker + destroyer hit on unmodified 2+.

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2188

Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#60 » Nov 07 2017 07:56

Studioworks wrote:I read this forum and people here all the time writes about units that have -1 to hit. It seems that it turns out that every single unit in the game have this -1 and that we are all screwed up because of this. It seems that this is really a big thing right now. To be honest I didn't play against any single unit with this modifier and really can't see why all of you are making this fuss around it. Maybe because I play only against Ultramarines, Tyranids, Admech, Guard and Grey Knights? Where are all these -1 units?

Check out some tournament reports, you'll find Raven Guard are doing quite well.

PeeJ
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 99

Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#61 » Nov 07 2017 09:29

Arka0415 wrote:Check out some tournament reports, you'll find Raven Guard are doing quite well.


Nymphomanius wrote:Alpha Legion, raven guard, stygies VII (Admech), eldar altaioc, guard Psyker can give it, death guard, venomthropes. I'm sure there's loads more I can't believe you haven't encountered any?


Take your dirty facts out of here, they don't fit with his narrative. I think we are approaching critical mass of agreement and getting to that stage in internet discussions where it becomes 'cool' to be a dissenting voice regardless of evidence sadly.

As for the "Markerlights always hitting on a 3+" change. I agree with both camps that this would a) solve a lot of problems, but also B) devalue pathfinders over drones.

The easy fix there? Give Pathfinders the special rule. Something like:

"Scout Party: Pathfinders are masters of scouting ahead and prioritising key threats, painting them for the main force.

Pathfinders always hit on a 3+ when firing Markerlights regardless of any modifiers."

This could be the best of both worlds. Makes Pathfinders the better choice for a main Markerlight base but doesn't give them the higher BS/ignore modifiers with their regular/special weapons. Markerdrones are still useful as they have the added ablative wound functionality and allow you to have a decentralised, mobile Markerlight pool.

User avatar
Ghostly Daemon
Shas'Saal
Posts: 58
Contact:

Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#62 » Nov 07 2017 09:40

PeeJ wrote:The easy fix there? Give Pathfinders the special rule. Something like:

"Scout Party: Pathfinders are masters of scouting ahead and prioritising key threats, painting them for the main force.

Pathfinders always hit on a 3+ when firing Markerlights regardless of any modifiers."

This could be the best of both worlds. Makes Pathfinders the better choice for a main Markerlight base but doesn't give them the higher BS/ignore modifiers with their regular/special weapons. Markerdrones are still useful as they have the added ablative wound functionality and allow you to have a decentralised, mobile Markerlight pool.


This. This is absolutely perfect. My original train of thought was to just give Markers the benefit of ignoring negative hit modifiers, but I think you've hit the nail on the head right there.
:fear: :fear: :fear: :fear: :fear: :evil:

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#63 » Nov 07 2017 09:52

Nymphomanius wrote:
Studioworks wrote:I read this forum and people here all the time writes about units that have -1 to hit. It seems that it turns out that every single unit in the game have this -1 and that we are all screwed up because of this. It seems that this is really a big thing right now. To be honest I didn't play against any single unit with this modifier and really can't see why all of you are making this fuss around it. Maybe because I play only against Ultramarines, Tyranids, Admech, Guard and Grey Knights? Where are all these -1 units?


Alpha Legion, raven guard, stygies VII (Admech), eldar altaioc, guard Psyker can give it, death guard, venomthropes. I'm sure there's loads more I can't believe you haven't encountered any?

Not to mention flyer with hard-to-hit rule (basically all units of the Flyer FOC slot with few exceptions), different nightfighting rules and moving with heavy weapons (like Markerlights).

User avatar
Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 437

Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#64 » Nov 07 2017 10:16

PeeJ wrote:Pathfinders always hit on a 3+ when firing Markerlights regardless of any modifiers."


They will need to add a special caveat to this simply because of the heavy weapons. I bet it will read something like "Markerlights fired from this unit hit on a 4+ in the shooting phase regardless of modifiers if they have not moved for any reason this turn."

PeeJ
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 99

Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#65 » Nov 07 2017 10:37

Yojimbob wrote:
PeeJ wrote:Pathfinders always hit on a 3+ when firing Markerlights regardless of any modifiers."


They will need to add a special caveat to this simply because of the heavy weapons. I bet it will read something like "Markerlights fired from this unit hit on a 4+ in the shooting phase regardless of modifiers if they have not moved for any reason this turn."


True, although I'm still hoping for a 'always 3+' as opposed to the 'always 4+'. Which would be balanced if the table doesn't change. On average it currently takes a team of 10 pathfinders to reliably get 5 lights on a single unit allowing us to shoot at that one unit with the same kind of BS that almost every other army gets as standard. The tax there is a bit too high I think.

If the table changes, then it could possibly need to be 'always 4+'.

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#66 » Nov 07 2017 10:45

This thread is really drifting into heavy wishlisting area now. Maybe we should get back on track and discuss about realistical things. All those changes to Markerlights (no negative modifier, hitting on a X+, etc.) would of course be nice to have but not really high priority changes we need for our codex to work right now.

User avatar
Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 437

Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#67 » Nov 07 2017 10:56

PeeJ wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:
PeeJ wrote:Pathfinders always hit on a 3+ when firing Markerlights regardless of any modifiers."


They will need to add a special caveat to this simply because of the heavy weapons. I bet it will read something like "Markerlights fired from this unit hit on a 4+ in the shooting phase regardless of modifiers if they have not moved for any reason this turn."


True, although I'm still hoping for a 'always 3+' as opposed to the 'always 4+'. Which would be balanced if the table doesn't change. On average it currently takes a team of 10 pathfinders to reliably get 5 lights on a single unit allowing us to shoot at that one unit with the same kind of BS that almost every other army gets as standard. The tax there is a bit too high I think.

If the table changes, then it could possibly need to be 'always 4+'.


You undevalue the fact that str5 is extremely good and our entire army has it standard and with good volume. Having us shoot on 3+ standard or easily is just bad for the game. There's a reason why they made it hard for us to get the extra +1 BS. Yes I understand the frustration of our long range tank hunting at the moment but I feel rail will get a small str tweak to help out our low volume of rail shots but other than that we'll basically be the same. Don't expect a ton of changes to the fundamentals of our army but more of the return of vehicle upgrades, our blacksun filters, and stratagems with a points tweak on most of our models and weapons. That will be plenty to get us to be in line with the heavy hitting codexes.

PeeJ
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 99

Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#68 » Nov 07 2017 11:10

Yojimbob wrote:You undevalue the fact that str5 is extremely good and our entire army has it standard and with good volume. Having us shoot on 3+ standard or easily is just bad for the game. There's a reason why they made it hard for us to get the extra +1 BS. Yes I understand the frustration of our long range tank hunting at the moment but I feel rail will get a small str tweak to help out our low volume of rail shots but other than that we'll basically be the same. Don't expect a ton of changes to the fundamentals of our army but more of the return of vehicle upgrades, our blacksun filters, and stratagems with a points tweak on most of our models and weapons. That will be plenty to get us to be in line with the heavy hitting codexes.


I'm not undervaluing that at all, I think you may be overvaluing it given the fact that of the 3 'damage dealing' phases, we realistically get 1 of those to make a mark. "On Par" doesn't cut it when comparing to other armies which can do damage in all 3.

With that in mind, having an oversaturation of Str5 weapons on an army where over-costed elites shoot at a 4+ base which is very easily and frequently modified to 5+ in a competitive environment is nowhere near good enough compensation IMHO.

But having said that, most of this is just wild speculation as we are looking at items in isolation.

Whatever changes we theory-craft around marker-lights, as balanced or well thought out as we try to make them sound now, may just turn out being ridiculous when you put them next to the other changes that could be made.

For example even saying Pathfinder Markers "always hit on a 4+ when not moving" would be very OP if the Markerlight table moved +1BS to slot 2, and/or if our suits drop considerably in price, and/or if our suits got 3+ BS.

It's interesting to discuss, but unless we somehow looked at the big picture and tried to predict all the major changes to be made across the codex, we will probably be way off for the most part.

User avatar
Studioworks
Shas'Saal
Posts: 135

Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#69 » Nov 07 2017 11:59

Panzer wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
Studioworks wrote:I read this forum and people here all the time writes about units that have -1 to hit. It seems that it turns out that every single unit in the game have this -1 and that we are all screwed up because of this. It seems that this is really a big thing right now. To be honest I didn't play against any single unit with this modifier and really can't see why all of you are making this fuss around it. Maybe because I play only against Ultramarines, Tyranids, Admech, Guard and Grey Knights? Where are all these -1 units?


Alpha Legion, raven guard, stygies VII (Admech), eldar altaioc, guard Psyker can give it, death guard, venomthropes. I'm sure there's loads more I can't believe you haven't encountered any?

Not to mention flyer with hard-to-hit rule (basically all units of the Flyer FOC slot with few exceptions), different nightfighting rules and moving with heavy weapons (like Markerlights).

OK, still not such a big deal like people here are writing. I must admit that I don't play tournaments so there is no spamming in my community, maybe there is the most important difference between my vision of the game and others.

@Nymphomanius. Now that you mentioned it I encountered the -1 to hit against the Guard, but didn't see so much problems. I simply didn't shoot at the unit that had -1.

Nymphomanius
Shas'Saal
Posts: 368
Contact:

Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#70 » Nov 07 2017 12:33

Studioworks wrote:
@Nymphomanius. Now that you mentioned it I encountered the -1 to hit against the Guard, but didn't see so much problems. I simply didn't shoot at the unit that had -1.


Then it did it's job of protecting that unit even better than anticipated :D

On a more topical note something we really do miss was JSJ I really think we should have it back for 2 reasons
A. Once part of our core mechanics, taking it away from us would be like taking away orders from IG or drugs from dark eldar
B. It would be a good counter to >12" -1 to hit, jump into 12" range, fire away, jump to safety, that's how we play

Also I don't want it to return as a stratagem 1 JSJ a turn works for eldar because jetbikes are 1 unit in a diverse army, Battlesuits literally make up almost our entire elite section and our HQ's

More fittingly would be like taking Autarch abilities away from aspect warriors.

Please GW give us back JSJ, a stronger rail gun for the Hammerhead, and a revised markerlight mechanics

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#71 » Nov 07 2017 12:42

Nymphomanius wrote:
Studioworks wrote:
@Nymphomanius. Now that you mentioned it I encountered the -1 to hit against the Guard, but didn't see so much problems. I simply didn't shoot at the unit that had -1.


Then it did it's job of protecting that unit even better than anticipated :D

On a more topical note something we really do miss was JSJ I really think we should have it back for 2 reasons
A. Once part of our core mechanics, taking it away from us would be like taking away orders from IG or drugs from dark eldar
B. It would be a good counter to >12" -1 to hit, jump into 12" range, fire away, jump to safety, that's how we play

Also I don't want it to return as a stratagem 1 JSJ a turn works for eldar because jetbikes are 1 unit in a diverse army, Battlesuits literally make up almost our entire elite section and our HQ's

More fittingly would be like taking Autarch abilities away from aspect warriors.

Please GW give us back JSJ, a stronger rail gun for the Hammerhead, and a revised markerlight mechanics

I can almost guarantee that we'll get JSJ back. As Stratagem, just like Craftworld Eldar.
No way they are going to give every single battlesuit unit a new special rule they didn't have in the Index. If they wanted the army to work like that then we would already have it. JSJ is not one of our core mechanics anymore (it always only was for battlesuits anyway). Saviour Protocol and FLY keyword is now.

Nymphomanius
Shas'Saal
Posts: 368
Contact:

Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#72 » Nov 07 2017 12:57

Panzer wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
Studioworks wrote:
@Nymphomanius. Now that you mentioned it I encountered the -1 to hit against the Guard, but didn't see so much problems. I simply didn't shoot at the unit that had -1.


Then it did it's job of protecting that unit even better than anticipated :D

On a more topical note something we really do miss was JSJ I really think we should have it back for 2 reasons
A. Once part of our core mechanics, taking it away from us would be like taking away orders from IG or drugs from dark eldar
B. It would be a good counter to >12" -1 to hit, jump into 12" range, fire away, jump to safety, that's how we play

Also I don't want it to return as a stratagem 1 JSJ a turn works for eldar because jetbikes are 1 unit in a diverse army, Battlesuits literally make up almost our entire elite section and our HQ's

More fittingly would be like taking Autarch abilities away from aspect warriors.

Please GW give us back JSJ, a stronger rail gun for the Hammerhead, and a revised markerlight mechanics

I can almost guarantee that we'll get JSJ back. As Stratagem, just like Craftworld Eldar.
No way they are going to give every single battlesuit unit a new special rule they didn't have in the Index. If they wanted the army to work like that then we would already have it. JSJ is not one of our core mechanics anymore (it always only was for battlesuits anyway). Saviour Protocol and FLY keyword is now.


Yeah but I always used to play battlesuit heavy lists like 5-6 units of em.

Though might get lucky and get something along the lines of
Tactical repositioning 1CP
At the end of the shooting phase select up to 3 units that shot with the battlesuit keyword.
Each unit may make a move as if it was the movement phase, they may not advance as part of this move and may not declare a charge this turn.

I'd be happy with that :smile:

Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron