Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Use this area for all discussions of the "gaming" aspect of 40K/Tau.
Nymphomanius
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#127 » Dec 15 2017 07:40

Bloodknife92 wrote:
Orion7 wrote:I'd like to see something like the old electro warfare suite as something that we can do in the psychic phase. Essentially using technology to hack enemy units and cause shenanigans rather than magical warp powers.

Or I mean, they could always just give us the fluff friendly psychic-bear-in-a-bubble alien that sometimes appears in stories

Funny you say that. In 7th, Ghostkeels had pretty much that! They could, once per game, force an enemy unit that was shooting at them, to suffer the Gets Hot! Special Rule.


I think you're confusing that with a relic that caused an enemy unit to have get hot guns EVERY turn within 12" the keels 1use only ability made whatever shot at him need 6's for that turn

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thezanji
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#128 » Dec 15 2017 08:14

Nymphomanius wrote:
Bloodknife92 wrote:
Orion7 wrote:I'd like to see something like the old electro warfare suite as something that we can do in the psychic phase. Essentially using technology to hack enemy units and cause shenanigans rather than magical warp powers.

Or I mean, they could always just give us the fluff friendly psychic-bear-in-a-bubble alien that sometimes appears in stories

Funny you say that. In 7th, Ghostkeels had pretty much that! They could, once per game, force an enemy unit that was shooting at them, to suffer the Gets Hot! Special Rule.


I think you're confusing that with a relic that caused an enemy unit to have get hot guns EVERY turn within 12" the keels 1use only ability made whatever shot at him need 6's for that turn


they were the holo photon counter measures, they it was a reactive ability, when the ghostkeels were selected as a shooting target, the ghostkeel can force that unit to shoot only snapshots, making them inmune against template weapons.

I miss it...

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CDR_Farsight
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#129 » Dec 15 2017 09:48

Arka0415 wrote:
Beerson wrote:Crisis suits and broadsides with BS3+ is something that I thing should really be in codex as they are elites/"snipers" and from fluff view they are piloted by elite warriors and have lots of electronics to help the pilot shoot, especially the static, stable broadsides with their precise railguns (if IRL railgun physics apply)

I'd love that change but I just can't see it happening. Every Tau update, and every time people say "It'd be nice to have BS3+ battlesuits this time!" (back then it was BS4, but anyway) and it never happens. I think BS4+ is just one of the design features we need to live with, like our lack of close-combat options.


We could have Crisis Bodyguards as BS 3+ at least. I don't think that's too much to ask.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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Yojimbob
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#130 » Dec 15 2017 09:49

As far as everyone's "I wish crisis suits were BS3+", we won't be getting that. Period. Our most likely scenario for better crisis shooting will be something akin to the old retribution cadre formation where you get to pick several units and those units can deepstrike and gain +1 to hit the round they came in if all of them came in together. That would be cool to see again plus it will give options for things to deepstrike that currently don't have that ability. This would give us crisis that hit on 2's rerolling again if you put 5 lights on their target. I could also see a type of riptide wing strat where they get to doubletap their weapons like before. If this is the case, I could easily see a lot of units not getting their prices changed because of stratagem balance.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#131 » Dec 15 2017 10:38

Yojimbob wrote:As far as everyone's "I wish crisis suits were BS3+", we won't be getting that. Period. Our most likely scenario for better crisis shooting will be something akin to the old retribution cadre formation where you get to pick several units and those units can deepstrike and gain +1 to hit the round they came in if all of them came in together. That would be cool to see again plus it will give options for things to deepstrike that currently don't have that ability. This would give us crisis that hit on 2's rerolling again if you put 5 lights on their target. I could also see a type of riptide wing strat where they get to doubletap their weapons like before. If this is the case, I could easily see a lot of units not getting their prices changed because of stratagem balance.


Nah I think with Riptides we will get the "pick a Riptide and 2 chums within 6" all shoot at same target and get +1 to wound / X amount of MW / reroll hits(+/or) wounds"

A combined fire and or retaliation stratagem is likely I think based on previous Codexes.

I'm more concerned with the relics/ warlord traits I've recently seen the new blood angel codex and I'm not impressed with 90% of it but the other 10% is really good. But I don't want that because now I reckon a majority of blood angel lists will use the same relic + trait which is boring and a waste of giving them a dozen to choose from

konradkurze202
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#132 » Dec 15 2017 08:35

Honestly I don't think BS 3+ is that far fetched. In 7th we could get units hitting on 2s with just 2 marker hits. In 8th even with base 3+ for our elite options it would still take 5 markers to reach that same level.

I think either one of two things will happen.
1) Suits go to BS 3+ base, and the marker light table stays relatively (but not necessarily completely) the same (re-roll 1s as the first, +1 to BS as the final reward).
2) The marker table will change and a single marker will give +1 BS (and hopefully another +bs bonus further down as well) and the re-roll 1s effect will move further down the table.

#2 still means we need a marker hit to be the same level as every other shooty army without buffs. We would then need (assuming the only change to the ML table was to switch 1 ML and 5 MLs) 4 more MLs to get 3+ reroll 1s, which every other shooty army can get with just a single captain/autarch. Markerlights aren't really giving us anything right now that every other gunline army can't get, often for cheaper and more impactful than we can. A Captain in the middle of a bunch of Devastators means heavy weapons hitting on 3's re-roll 1s, and that is on any target they want to shoot at, rather than highlighting a single enemy target that we get. Ironically the flexibility that Tau are renowned for is now held by our enemies, while we are rigid.

Given the drastic changes to how markerlights work a base BS of 3+ seems far from unreasonable. Markerlights are supposed to make us the premier shooting army, not just bring us barely up to par.

Muaddib195
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#133 » Dec 15 2017 09:19

Draco023 had an interesting idea in the Upcoming T'au Codex thread about allowing Firesight marksman and sniper drones to react to enemy psykers that attempt to manifest a power. I think he intended it as a regular ability, but I think it fits better as a strategem, similar to the militarum tempestus special strategem

1CP: Use this strategem immediately when an enemy Psyker attempts to manifest a psychic power within LOS of both a FIRESIGHT MARKSMAN and a unit of SNIPER DRONES; the SNIPER DRONES may immediately fire at the Pskyer as if it were was their shooting phase, with a -1 penalty to hit. If the SNIPER DRONES inflict 1 or more unsaved wounds, the psychic power automatically fails.

This would simultaneously provide us with something to do in the enemy psychic phase, and also give sniper drones an additional role to play.

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Draco023
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#134 » Dec 17 2017 01:29

Muaddib195 wrote:Draco023 had an interesting idea in the Upcoming T'au Codex thread about allowing Firesight marksman and sniper drones to react to enemy psykers that attempt to manifest a power. I think he intended it as a regular ability, but I think it fits better as a strategem, similar to the militarum tempestus special strategem

1CP: Use this strategem immediately when an enemy Psyker attempts to manifest a psychic power within LOS of both a FIRESIGHT MARKSMAN and a unit of SNIPER DRONES; the SNIPER DRONES may immediately fire at the Pskyer as if it were was their shooting phase, with a -1 penalty to hit. If the SNIPER DRONES inflict 1 or more unsaved wounds, the psychic power automatically fails.

This would simultaneously provide us with something to do in the enemy psychic phase, and also give sniper drones an additional role to play.



Glad you liked the idea! I agree it works well as a strategem if the points aren't adjusted. The only down side of it being a strategem is we could only use it once on one power per turn. It's better than the nothing we have now, but still only a fraction of the denial power other armies have. Maybe 2 cp to allow that unit to attempt to deny any powers it sees, but it's just suppressing fire that causes no wounds?

PeeJ
Shas'La
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#135 » Dec 19 2017 07:37

konradkurze202 wrote:Honestly I don't think BS 3+ is that far fetched. In 7th we could get units hitting on 2s with just 2 marker hits. In 8th even with base 3+ for our elite options it would still take 5 markers to reach that same level.

I think either one of two things will happen.
1) Suits go to BS 3+ base, and the marker light table stays relatively (but not necessarily completely) the same (re-roll 1s as the first, +1 to BS as the final reward).
2) The marker table will change and a single marker will give +1 BS (and hopefully another +bs bonus further down as well) and the re-roll 1s effect will move further down the table.


There is a third possible option that you have missed, A bit of wargear that can be added to suits to give them a straight +1 BS. I'd say this is more likely than a straight 3+ BS for elites (which, frankly, fluff wise would make sense, but game balance wise could be a hard sell).

Although I'm not sure how that would compare statistically when weighed up against 3 straight weapons over 2 weapons +1BS. One of the Mathhammer folks would have to theory-craft that i'm afraid.

I may be mis-remembering, but I'm sure we had a battle-suit system that used to do that. I don't have my old codicies at work to look through though.

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Arka0415
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#136 » Dec 19 2017 08:57

PeeJ wrote:There is a third possible option that you have missed, A bit of wargear that can be added to suits to give them a straight +1 BS. I'd say this is more likely than a straight 3+ BS for elites (which, frankly, fluff wise would make sense, but game balance wise could be a hard sell).

Although I'm not sure how that would compare statistically when weighed up against 3 straight weapons over 2 weapons +1BS. One of the Mathhammer folks would have to theory-craft that i'm afraid.

I may be mis-remembering, but I'm sure we had a battle-suit system that used to do that. I don't have my old codicies at work to look through though.

You bet, it was the old Targeting Array. Great piece of wargear. However, the Targeting Array would need to be very cheap for it to be better than a third weapon. Let's look at some Burst Cannons:

XV8 w/ 3x Burst Cannons (72 points): 12 shots > 6 hits
XV8 w/ 2x Burst Cannons + Targeting Array (62+x points): 8 shots > 5.34 hits

So, for the 2x Burst Cannon + Targeting Array to be equal from an efficiency standpoint, x (the cost of the Targeting Array) would need to be 2.08 points. Would Games Workshop give us a +1 BS boost for 2 points? Who knows.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#137 » Dec 19 2017 09:03

Arka0415 wrote:
PeeJ wrote:There is a third possible option that you have missed, A bit of wargear that can be added to suits to give them a straight +1 BS. I'd say this is more likely than a straight 3+ BS for elites (which, frankly, fluff wise would make sense, but game balance wise could be a hard sell).

Although I'm not sure how that would compare statistically when weighed up against 3 straight weapons over 2 weapons +1BS. One of the Mathhammer folks would have to theory-craft that i'm afraid.

I may be mis-remembering, but I'm sure we had a battle-suit system that used to do that. I don't have my old codicies at work to look through though.

You bet, it was the old Targeting Array. Great piece of wargear. However, the Targeting Array would need to be very cheap for it to be better than a third weapon. Let's look at some Burst Cannons:

XV8 w/ 3x Burst Cannons (72 points): 12 shots > 6 hits
XV8 w/ 2x Burst Cannons + Targeting Array (62+x points): 8 shots > 5.34 hits

So, for the 2x Burst Cannon + Targeting Array to be equal from an efficiency standpoint, x (the cost of the Targeting Array) would need to be 2.08 points. Would Games Workshop give us a +1 BS boost for 2 points? Who knows.


I wouldn't use it on crisis suits though, the Riptide, ghostkeel, broadsides and Stormsurge however...

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Arka0415
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#138 » Dec 19 2017 09:34

Nymphomanius wrote:I wouldn't use it on crisis suits though, the Riptide, ghostkeel, broadsides and Stormsurge however...

I certainly agree. For those other units I bet it'd get a split cost, but if it comes back it'd be very valuable indeed.

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GI-Redshirt
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#139 » Dec 19 2017 05:40

Arka0415 wrote:
PeeJ wrote:There is a third possible option that you have missed, A bit of wargear that can be added to suits to give them a straight +1 BS. I'd say this is more likely than a straight 3+ BS for elites (which, frankly, fluff wise would make sense, but game balance wise could be a hard sell).

Although I'm not sure how that would compare statistically when weighed up against 3 straight weapons over 2 weapons +1BS. One of the Mathhammer folks would have to theory-craft that i'm afraid.

I may be mis-remembering, but I'm sure we had a battle-suit system that used to do that. I don't have my old codicies at work to look through though.

You bet, it was the old Targeting Array. Great piece of wargear. However, the Targeting Array would need to be very cheap for it to be better than a third weapon. Let's look at some Burst Cannons:

XV8 w/ 3x Burst Cannons (72 points): 12 shots > 6 hits
XV8 w/ 2x Burst Cannons + Targeting Array (62+x points): 8 shots > 5.34 hits

So, for the 2x Burst Cannon + Targeting Array to be equal from an efficiency standpoint, x (the cost of the Targeting Array) would need to be 2.08 points. Would Games Workshop give us a +1 BS boost for 2 points? Who knows.


Personally, I would not want to see a return of the Targeting Array or anything like it. Simply because it would pretty much be an auto include on all of our battlesuits save for Crisis Suits (and even on Crisis depending on cost and weapons). +1 to hit or +1 BS would simply be too good, it would probably beat out every other support system. In effect, you would be removing a Support System slot from Riptides, Stormsurges, Ghostkeels, and probably Stealth Suits and Broadsides as nothing else would compare to giving them +1 BS. And depending on the cost of the system and Crisis weapons, it might still be better on Crisis armed with FBs or MPs.

I'd rather see stat lines be adjusted to either BS 3+ for all battlesuits/for just Shas'Vres than be given a support system to get there that I'll likely always pay for on all my battlesuits because it would be stupid not to.

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Arka0415
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#140 » Dec 19 2017 07:25

GI-Redshirt wrote:Personally, I would not want to see a return of the Targeting Array or anything like it. Simply because it would pretty much be an auto include on all of our battlesuits save for Crisis Suits (and even on Crisis depending on cost and weapons). +1 to hit or +1 BS would simply be too good, it would probably beat out every other support system. In effect, you would be removing a Support System slot from Riptides, Stormsurges, Ghostkeels, and probably Stealth Suits and Broadsides as nothing else would compare to giving them +1 BS. And depending on the cost of the system and Crisis weapons, it might still be better on Crisis armed with FBs or MPs.

The Targeting Array would make suits more reliable, but ultimately would make them less powerful pound-for-pound if the Targeting Array replaced an additional weapon. On Riptides, Broadsides, Ghostkeels, and Stormsurges it would practically be a must-take upgrade, but on suits that can take additional weapons (such as XV8s) I'm not entirely sure it would be useful.

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GI-Redshirt
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#141 » Dec 19 2017 07:34

Arka0415 wrote:
GI-Redshirt wrote:Personally, I would not want to see a return of the Targeting Array or anything like it. Simply because it would pretty much be an auto include on all of our battlesuits save for Crisis Suits (and even on Crisis depending on cost and weapons). +1 to hit or +1 BS would simply be too good, it would probably beat out every other support system. In effect, you would be removing a Support System slot from Riptides, Stormsurges, Ghostkeels, and probably Stealth Suits and Broadsides as nothing else would compare to giving them +1 BS. And depending on the cost of the system and Crisis weapons, it might still be better on Crisis armed with FBs or MPs.

The Targeting Array would make suits more reliable, but ultimately would make them less powerful pound-for-pound if the Targeting Array replaced an additional weapon. On Riptides, Broadsides, Ghostkeels, and Stormsurges it would practically be a must-take upgrade, but on suits that can take additional weapons (such as XV8s) I'm not entirely sure it would be useful.


It would ultimately depend on the price of the Targeting Array. If it were priced similarly to other Support Systems at around 8 points or so, I would say it would be worth taking in place of some of the more expensive weapons, like MPs or FBs. Using MPs as an example, an 8 point Targeting Array in place of a 3rd MP on a 3 man Crisis Team would save you 48 points, IE a maxed out set of Gun Drones for the 3 man unit.

But my concern isn't really with Crisis, but more with the other suits. As you said, on Riptides, Ghostkeels, Broadsides, Stormsurges, and maybe even Stealth Suits it would be an auto-include. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of auto include upgrades. I don't really enjoy having a choice made for me before I even begin list building. But that's just me.

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Arka0415
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#142 » Dec 19 2017 08:50

GI-Redshirt wrote:It would ultimately depend on the price of the Targeting Array. If it were priced similarly to other Support Systems at around 8 points or so, I would say it would be worth taking in place of some of the more expensive weapons, like MPs or FBs. Using MPs as an example, an 8 point Targeting Array in place of a 3rd MP on a 3 man Crisis Team would save you 48 points, IE a maxed out set of Gun Drones for the 3 man unit.

I agree it would be a better option for the more expensive weapons- in terms of statistical efficiency it might be about equal, but the points savings would be very valuable. Though, I will point out that the performance of 2x Missile Pods + 1x 8-point Targeting Array is exactly the same as 2x Missile Pods + 1x ATS against standard T7/Sv3+ vehicles.

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GI-Redshirt
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#143 » Dec 19 2017 09:11

Arka0415 wrote:
GI-Redshirt wrote:It would ultimately depend on the price of the Targeting Array. If it were priced similarly to other Support Systems at around 8 points or so, I would say it would be worth taking in place of some of the more expensive weapons, like MPs or FBs. Using MPs as an example, an 8 point Targeting Array in place of a 3rd MP on a 3 man Crisis Team would save you 48 points, IE a maxed out set of Gun Drones for the 3 man unit.

I agree it would be a better option for the more expensive weapons- in terms of statistical efficiency it might be about equal, but the points savings would be very valuable. Though, I will point out that the performance of 2x Missile Pods + 1x 8-point Targeting Array is exactly the same as 2x Missile Pods + 1x ATS against standard T7/Sv3+ vehicles.


Fair enough. I'll freely admit I haven't done the math on how efficient or how good it would be, I'm merely going off of initial impressions on the proposed ideas.

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Beerson
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Re: Let's Contact GW! (Round 3)

Post#144 » Dec 19 2017 10:44

Arka0415 wrote:You bet, it was the old Targeting Array. Great piece of wargear. However, the Targeting Array would need to be very cheap for it to be better than a third weapon. Let's look at some Burst Cannons:

XV8 w/ 3x Burst Cannons (72 points): 12 shots > 6 hits
XV8 w/ 2x Burst Cannons + Targeting Array (62+x points): 8 shots > 5.34 hits

So, for the 2x Burst Cannon + Targeting Array to be equal from an efficiency standpoint, x (the cost of the Targeting Array) would need to be 2.08 points. Would Games Workshop give us a +1 BS boost for 2 points? Who knows.


That only works if they don't fix the BC price or rework them completely, at which point I will stop buying any tau related stuff from gw or fw, you know, voting with my wallet
If they fix the price third BC will be always better, if they rework them, who knows...

If they did this I would want to see extra support system slot on xv8 like in the old days if I remember it correctly
Still not a fan of autoincludes, I really want to see battle suits at BS3+ even if bodyguards/paid upgrade to shas'vre (whole team)

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