Burst cannon vs gun drones

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leo1925
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#19 » Nov 09 2017 05:32

CDR_Farsight wrote:The elder guy was hitting me with 6D6 S6 AP-3 shots each turn ignoring LoS and range, hitting on BS 3+ AND rerolling all failed hits and wounds coming from only about 450 points of his army...talk about a friggin crisis team killer.


I am guessing that he was playing with support batteries and farseer but if I am correct then he was doing some things wrong. Firstly support batteries only ignore LoS and not range (OK their 48" range is more than enough but still, not ignoring range). Secondly after deployment each battery counts as a separate unit so in order to buff them with guide he would need to buff each one separately. Thirdly the doom power which gives re-roll wound rolls must target the enemy unit (which means that it's hard to have a farseer close enough to both the batteries and the enemy unit. Fourthly the shadow weavers (the weapon of the support platforms) have AP -3 only to shots that get a 6+ wound roll.

Seems to me that your opponent got a few things wrong and played the support batteries A LOT more powerful than they are.

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Haechi
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#20 » Nov 09 2017 05:33

Problem with 24" Burst Cannon for Crisis is that Gun Drones can't efficiently support them anymore.

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Panzer
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#21 » Nov 09 2017 05:39

Haechi wrote:Problem with 24" Burst Cannon for Crisis is that Gun Drones can't efficiently support them anymore.

It would also mean that they would now compete with Strike Teams for mid-range S5 shooting. No, I don't think increasing the range would do anything.

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CDR_Farsight
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#22 » Nov 09 2017 08:11

He was using the fire prism formation with the 1 CP stratagem that impacts all fire prisms....it does all of those things...and it still allows them to fire twice if they didn’t move. Nasty

As for the CRISIS BC range extension, I’m not trying to replace fire warriors. I’m just trying to give CRISIS a midfield presence option and give some sort of differentiation between BC and gun drones to justify the cost. You can still deliver drones effectively....possibly even more effectively. Instead of having to drop a huge number of models inside 18 inches (which invariably means some of the models are much much closer than 18” to fit them all in range), you could just drop the drones touching 18” from the intended target then put the suits 2” back from them.

Also, since most rapid fire are 24 or 30 inches, it will force them to move if they want to get max shots on the crisis and if they choose to target the drones, then the drones get to take saves. Everyone knows by now that you can kill more drones by shooting the suits they are protecting, so the choice becomes do i shoot 2 shots at the drones who now get saves, or do i shoot less shots or less accurate shots at the suits to get them to transfer them as mortal wounds to the drones?

Right now, unless you are shooting with an AP-3 D 1 weapon (not many of those around), it is ALWAYS more efficient to target the suits directly and force them to pass wounds.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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Arka0415
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#23 » Nov 09 2017 09:40

CDR_Farsight wrote:As for the CRISIS BC range extension, I’m not trying to replace fire warriors. I’m just trying to give CRISIS a midfield presence option and give some sort of differentiation between BC and gun drones to justify the cost.

Midfield XV8s huh... how about Plasma Rifles with Rapid Fire 2? :D Anyway though, I admit I don't see competitive players picking up XV8s with S5 weapons in any scenario. We always say "we can get S5 firepower elsewhere." XV8s are the chassis that can fit weapons we can't get anywhere else, like Plasma Rifles (if they get better) and CIBs.

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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#24 » Nov 10 2017 04:10

CDR_Farsight wrote:Everyone knows by now that you can kill more drones by shooting the suits they are protecting, so the choice becomes do i shoot 2 shots at the drones who now get saves, or do i shoot less shots or less accurate shots at the suits to get them to transfer them as mortal wounds to the drones?

Right now, unless you are shooting with an AP-3 D 1 weapon (not many of those around), it is ALWAYS more efficient to target the suits directly and force them to pass wounds.


What school of mathematics did you go to? Any low Str 0Ap 1d weapons are always more efficient at targeting the drones.

Let's take 10 Marines with standard bolter rapid fire range.
66% chance to hit so 13.2 hits
50%chance to wound the drones (6.6)
33% chance to wound a suit (4.35)
At this point yes using saviour Protocol would kill 4 drones vs 3 but the crisis suits would take the hits on their 3+Sv and leave 1.4 wounds through.
Whereas targeting the drones directly they will suffer 3.3 wounds.
With a chance to kill if 16.5% per bolter round in just 37 shots you will kill all 6 drones leaving the crisis suits vulnerable to your high Str high Ap weapons.

On topic I think ap-1 would really help the burst cannon and on our vehicles make the secondary weapons optional or give us some long range weapons like missile pod.

32 Str 5 ap-2 alpha strike XV8s would destroy light infantry especially with markerlight support to remove any cover save (#hormogauntmincemeat) :D

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Panzer
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#25 » Nov 10 2017 05:01

Nymphomanius wrote:
CDR_Farsight wrote:Everyone knows by now that you can kill more drones by shooting the suits they are protecting, so the choice becomes do i shoot 2 shots at the drones who now get saves, or do i shoot less shots or less accurate shots at the suits to get them to transfer them as mortal wounds to the drones?

Right now, unless you are shooting with an AP-3 D 1 weapon (not many of those around), it is ALWAYS more efficient to target the suits directly and force them to pass wounds.


What school of mathematics did you go to? Any low Str Ap0 D1 weapons are always more efficient at targeting the drones.

Let's take 10 Marines with standard bolter rapid fire range.
66% chance to hit so 13.2 hits
50%chance to wound the drones (6.6)
33% chance to wound a suit (4.35)
At this point yes using saviour Protocol would kill 4 drones vs 3 but the crisis suits would take the hits on their 3+Sv and leave 1.4 wounds through.
Whereas targeting the drones directly they will suffer 3.3 wounds.
With a chance to kill if 16.5% per bolter round in just 37 shots you will kill all 6 drones leaving the crisis suits vulnerable to your high Str high Ap weapons.

It's not a math case but a logic case here. It's not about how many wounds go through but where they go to. Sure we'll take less wounds when just taking them on the Suits....however then he's slowly whittling down the Suits we wanted to protect with the Drones. If he can do that with just Bolter then they already did their job well enough.
If we take it on the Drones the Crisis will be vulnerable to heavy shooting sooner.
Either way it's a win-win to shoot at the Crisis instead of shooting at the Drones for the opponent.

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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#26 » Nov 10 2017 05:35

Panzer wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
CDR_Farsight wrote:Everyone knows by now that you can kill more drones by shooting the suits they are protecting, so the choice becomes do i shoot 2 shots at the drones who now get saves, or do i shoot less shots or less accurate shots at the suits to get them to transfer them as mortal wounds to the drones?

Right now, unless you are shooting with an AP-3 D 1 weapon (not many of those around), it is ALWAYS more efficient to target the suits directly and force them to pass wounds.


What school of mathematics did you go to? Any low Str Ap0 D1 weapons are always more efficient at targeting the drones.

Let's take 10 Marines with standard bolter rapid fire range.
66% chance to hit so 13.2 hits
50%chance to wound the drones (6.6)
33% chance to wound a suit (4.35)
At this point yes using saviour Protocol would kill 4 drones vs 3 but the crisis suits would take the hits on their 3+Sv and leave 1.4 wounds through.
Whereas targeting the drones directly they will suffer 3.3 wounds.
With a chance to kill if 16.5% per bolter round in just 37 shots you will kill all 6 drones leaving the crisis suits vulnerable to your high Str high Ap weapons.

It's not a math case but a logic case here. It's not about how many wounds go through but where they go to. Sure we'll take less wounds when just taking them on the Suits....however then he's slowly whittling down the Suits we wanted to protect with the Drones. If he can do that with just Bolter then they already did their job well enough.
If we take it on the Drones the Crisis will be vulnerable to heavy shooting sooner.
Either way it's a win-win to shoot at the Crisis instead of shooting at the Drones for the opponent.


I disagree I'd rather take the 3+ saves on my suits than lose 4-5 drones off the bat if he gets 6 through on your suits are you telling me you'd kill off all the drones and leave the suits vulnerable to Lascannon fire? A quad Las predator will kill 3 crisis fairly easily without any drones

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Panzer
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#27 » Nov 10 2017 05:39

Nymphomanius wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
What school of mathematics did you go to? Any low Str Ap0 D1 weapons are always more efficient at targeting the drones.

Let's take 10 Marines with standard bolter rapid fire range.
66% chance to hit so 13.2 hits
50%chance to wound the drones (6.6)
33% chance to wound a suit (4.35)
At this point yes using saviour Protocol would kill 4 drones vs 3 but the crisis suits would take the hits on their 3+Sv and leave 1.4 wounds through.
Whereas targeting the drones directly they will suffer 3.3 wounds.
With a chance to kill if 16.5% per bolter round in just 37 shots you will kill all 6 drones leaving the crisis suits vulnerable to your high Str high Ap weapons.

It's not a math case but a logic case here. It's not about how many wounds go through but where they go to. Sure we'll take less wounds when just taking them on the Suits....however then he's slowly whittling down the Suits we wanted to protect with the Drones. If he can do that with just Bolter then they already did their job well enough.
If we take it on the Drones the Crisis will be vulnerable to heavy shooting sooner.
Either way it's a win-win to shoot at the Crisis instead of shooting at the Drones for the opponent.


I disagree I'd rather take the 3+ saves on my suits than lose 4-5 drones off the bat if he gets 6 through on your suits are you telling me you'd kill off all the drones and leave the suits vulnerable to Lascannon fire? A quad Las predator will kill 3 crisis fairly easily without any drones

Of course you rather take it on the Crisis. It doesn't change the fact that it was better for the opponent to shoot his Bolter at the Crisis than at the Drones.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#28 » Nov 10 2017 05:51

Panzer wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
Panzer wrote:It's not a math case but a logic case here. It's not about how many wounds go through but where they go to. Sure we'll take less wounds when just taking them on the Suits....however then he's slowly whittling down the Suits we wanted to protect with the Drones. If he can do that with just Bolter then they already did their job well enough.
If we take it on the Drones the Crisis will be vulnerable to heavy shooting sooner.
Either way it's a win-win to shoot at the Crisis instead of shooting at the Drones for the opponent.


I disagree I'd rather take the 3+ saves on my suits than lose 4-5 drones off the bat if he gets 6 through on your suits are you telling me you'd kill off all the drones and leave the suits vulnerable to Lascannon fire? A quad Las predator will kill 3 crisis fairly easily without any drones

Of course you rather take it on the Crisis. It doesn't change the fact that it was better for the opponent to shoot his Bolter at the Crisis than at the Drones.


I think we may have to agree to disagree here I'd rather definitely kill all the drones than potentially damage the suits, then use heavy weapons to kill the suits, AM for example if it was me I'd be using heavy bolters to pick the drones off and a lemun Russ to kill the suits

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Panzer
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#29 » Nov 10 2017 06:10

Nymphomanius wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
I disagree I'd rather take the 3+ saves on my suits than lose 4-5 drones off the bat if he gets 6 through on your suits are you telling me you'd kill off all the drones and leave the suits vulnerable to Lascannon fire? A quad Las predator will kill 3 crisis fairly easily without any drones

Of course you rather take it on the Crisis. It doesn't change the fact that it was better for the opponent to shoot his Bolter at the Crisis than at the Drones.


I think we may have to agree to disagree here I'd rather definitely kill all the drones than potentially damage the suits, then use heavy weapons to kill the suits, AM for example if it was me I'd be using heavy bolters to pick the drones off and a lemun Russ to kill the suits

Apparently.

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Arka0415
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#30 » Nov 10 2017 06:46

Nymphomanius wrote:Let's take 10 Marines with standard bolter rapid fire range.
66% chance to hit so 13.2 hits
50%chance to wound the drones (6.6)
33% chance to wound a suit (4.35)
At this point yes using saviour Protocol would kill 4 drones vs 3 but the crisis suits would take the hits on their 3+Sv and leave 1.4 wounds through.
Whereas targeting the drones directly they will suffer 3.3 wounds.
With a chance to kill if 16.5% per bolter round in just 37 shots you will kill all 6 drones leaving the crisis suits vulnerable to your high Str high Ap weapons.

The most important thing to remember is, there shouldn't be big squads of Tactical Marines near your XV8s. You just dropped down from Manta Strike with XV8s, Gun Drones, and probably Fusion Commanders, maybe there are Stealtsuits nearby too. Those Tacticals should be dead already, or at least seriously diminished.


Nymphomanius wrote:I disagree I'd rather take the 3+ saves on my suits than lose 4-5 drones off the bat if he gets 6 through on your suits are you telling me you'd kill off all the drones and leave the suits vulnerable to Lascannon fire? A quad Las predator will kill 3 crisis fairly easily without any drones

Nymphomanius wrote:I think we may have to agree to disagree here I'd rather definitely kill all the drones than potentially damage the suits, then use heavy weapons to kill the suits, AM for example if it was me I'd be using heavy bolters to pick the drones off and a lemun Russ to kill the suits

I'm losing the train of thought here. Are we shooting at drones, or having our drones be shot at? At any rate, as the defending player, there are two scenarios. Either (a) the opponent elects to shoot the suits, or (b) they elect to shoot the drones. We can't control this obviously. Anyway, always assume your opponent is making what they think to be the right choice; if your opponent shoots the drones or the suits either way they're revealing a bit about what they're thinking.

You need to bring your battlefield awareness to this question. Let's look at a few questions:

1. How much disposable firepower does your opponent have? Is this early in the shooting phase, or have most of their other units already shot?

2. How many heavy weapons like Lascannons and Missile Launchers are nearby? How many weapons are there that could threaten your XV8s?

3. Are there assault units in position to threaten your XV8s? Do you need your drones for protection?

Once these questions have been considered, we can easily analyze a few scenarios.

Scenario 1:
It's early in the shooting phase and your opponent has quickly moved some Chaos Space Marines near your XV8s. They are all armed with bolters, but there are also some Lascannon teams nearby. Your opponent targets the Gun Drones with the Bolters.
There's not much to do here. It's clear your opponent is trying to kill the Drones to make the XV8s vulnerable to Lascannon fire; you can't pass wounds from drones to XV8s to just whether the fire and hope the drones hold.

Scenario 2:
It's early in the shooting phase and your opponent has quickly moved some Imperial Guardsmen near your XV8s. They have access to several Heavy Weapons Teams within range. Your opponent targets the XV8s with the Lasguns.
Your opponent is trying to take advantage of the Savior Protocols rule and get free wounds on the Gun Drones, as they wound both targets on 5+. Like the last situation, be aware that if you lose the Gun Drones your XV8s will likely be severely damaged by the Heavy Weapons Teams. Be cautious and take saves on the XV8s- you can probably risk a couple of wounds and it's not worth exposing yourself to Lascannon fire.

Scenario 3:
Your Eldar opponent doesn't have many anti-tank guns left and your XV8s are still at full strength. A group of Dire Avengers targets your XV8s.
If they have nothing to kill the XV8s with, then they're probably just going for lucky wounds. Be aware of the "rending" effect of shuriken weaponry and feel free to liberally kill drones to keep your XV8s alive. Don't let your opponent luck out and damage or kill an XV8 when there aren't heavy guns available. Next turn you can kill the Dire Avengers and the rest of the Eldar anti-tank guns, ending the threat for good.





Remember that the best way to solve this issue is never to be in this situation at all! Keep your XV8s safe by assaulting tanks, blindsiding your opponent with clever Manta Strikes, or (best yet) obliterating everything that could harm your XV8s in the first place! :D

Nymphomanius
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#31 » Nov 10 2017 08:56

Arka0415 wrote:
Scenario 2:
It's early in the shooting phase and your opponent has quickly moved some Imperial Guardsmen near your XV8s. They have access to several Heavy Weapons Teams within range. Your opponent targets the XV8s with the Lasguns.
Your opponent is trying to take advantage of the Savior Protocols rule and get free wounds on the Gun Drones, as they wound both targets on 5+. Like the last situation, be aware that if you lose the Gun Drones your XV8s will likely be severely damaged by the Heavy Weapons Teams. Be cautious and take saves on the XV8s- you can probably risk a couple of wounds and it's not worth exposing yourself to Lascannon fire.



This is the scenario I mean and my argument is why would he shoot the suits if he wanted to wound the drones? If you shoot the Drones you'll kill more than if he weathers the shooting on the suits.

If you are thinking "I'm better off taking a few armour saves on my suits so I don't lose all my drones" then your opponent should just shoot the drones and cause 33% more wounds.

The only point I was trying to make was someone said "its always better to shoot the battlesuit than the drones" as a general rule maybe but as an ultimatum that's simply not true.

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Panzer
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#32 » Nov 10 2017 09:15

Yeah and I was talking about scenario 3 myself.

Guardsmen Lasgun spam without Heavy weapons available to shoot at Crisis (because dead, in melee, out of range or already dealing with something else)? Shoot away at the Crisis. You either damage the Crisis or kill twice as many Drones than you would if you'd be shooting at them directly due bypassing their armor save.
And that's not just for small arms.
Assault Cannon Razorbacks anyone? It's either 3.56 dead Drones when shooting directly at them....or 2.67 wounds after saves on Crisis/5.33 mortal wounds on Drones.
Now where there's actually a difference on the to-wound roll?
Okay with 2x4 Gun Drones without buffs. 3.56 dead Drones when shooting directly at them....or 1,78 wounds after saves on Crisis/3.56 mortal wounds on Drones.

Shooting at Drones with anti-infantry weapons only really matters if you have some multi-damage weapons to follow up to shoot at the Crisis.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#33 » Nov 10 2017 09:54

Panzer wrote:Yeah and I was talking about scenario 3 myself.


Shooting at Drones with anti-infantry weapons only really matters if you have some multi-damage weapons to follow up to shoot at the Crisis.


That was the point I was trying to make :D

It's not 100% only ever shoot at crisis suits lol

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Arka0415
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#34 » Nov 10 2017 10:40

I guess, in my view, since we don't control our opponent's target selection, the issue is about deciding whether to pass the wounds to the Drones or not.

As the firing player, remember one important thing though- if you shoot at the XV8s, your opponent could switch it on you. If you shoot at the drones, they can't.

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CDR_Farsight
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#35 » Nov 21 2017 02:57

The whole point is that GW has completely taken the target selection choice out of the hands of a smart opponent.

In the end, we can agree that the goal of the opponent is probably to kill your higher firepower XV8 suits, right? (unless you equipped them with burst cannons...in which case you deserve what is coming to you) On that premise, then it is almost always more efficient to target the suits over the drones if you have single damage low strength and low ap weapons (especially S3 weapons like massed lasgun fire).

If the Tau player decides to take the wounds on the XV8 suit - Win for the opponent since that's what they want to kill anyways freeing up the lascannons to take out things with higher toughness and more than 3 wounds like vehicles and and larger suits.
If the Tau player decides to pass it off as a mortal wound - Win for the opponent because it completely bypasses saves and significantly increases the efficiency of standard weapons (going from 3.3 to 4.4 dead drones in the same number of shots), killing more drones than direct targeting and freeing up the lascannons to target the suits even sooner.

Now depending on rules interpretation, we do have a strategy to mitigate this that I expanded on in a different thread about what I call "pocket wounds" or wounds that you can take that don't degrade your army; however, some events and stores don't allow you to pass off successful wounds to the drones after you have started taking saves on the suits
I.E.- take saves on the suits until you reach two wounds then pass the rest off to drones.

So if you aren't allowed to shift wounds after you've started taking saves, then even taking saves against 3 wounds presents a danger to your suits.

Using the pocket wound strategy, it can become more efficient to target the drones directly if the ratio of Gun to Shield is high. The model shifts back to targeting suits once you reach a certain saturation of shield drones.

Nymphomanius wrote: What school of mathematics did you go to?


And I went to a very highly regarded school of mathematics, work in the space industry, and am pursuing a third masters at JHU Whiting School of Engineering. Let's try to keep the personal insults to a minimum.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

Nymphomanius
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#36 » Nov 21 2017 05:57

CDR_Farsight wrote:Now depending on rules interpretation, we do have a strategy to mitigate this that I expanded on in a different thread about what I call "pocket wounds" or wounds that you can take that don't degrade your army; however, some events and stores don't allow you to pass off successful wounds to the drones after you have started taking saves on the suits
I.E.- take saves on the suits until you reach two wounds then pass the rest off to drones.

Surely they can't do that!

If so could you not demand that your opponent fires each gun individually as the rules state it should be played? Because unless it's a multi shot weapon that scores multiple hits and wounds you're only going to be faced with 1 wound at a time.

P.S. The school of mathematics line maybe a little overstated the point I was trying to make was the statement of it is always better to shoot the battlesuit than the drones. Which I am aware we have no control over that element but as that discussion did show that there are circumstances when it is tactically viable to shoot the Drones directly first.

Also that trail of thought is useful if we ever find ourselves in a T'au vs T'au game with stealth suits for example targeting a squad with 4 burst cannons and 2 fusion blaster vs 3 XV8 + 6 gun drones you are more likely to kill 6 drones by shooting them directly than trying to get through the suits first.

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