Burst cannon vs gun drones

Use this area for all discussions of the "gaming" aspect of 40K/Tau.
User avatar
GND
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 125

Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#37 » Nov 22 2017 05:07

CDR_Farsight wrote:Now depending on rules interpretation, we do have a strategy to mitigate this that I expanded on in a different thread about what I call "pocket wounds" or wounds that you can take that don't degrade your army; however, some events and stores don't allow you to pass off successful wounds to the drones after you have started taking saves on the suits
I.E.- take saves on the suits until you reach two wounds then pass the rest off to drones.


You can absolutely do that as it it explicitly stated in the rule book. "You opponent can allocate the wounds one at a time, making saving throws and suffering damage as appropriate." And since Savior Protocols trigger on each attack that successfully wounds, you make the decision one at a time. I see no other possible interpretation that would even imply I am supposed to make a single decision whether to allocate a pool of wounds either all on the Drones or all on the suits.

And that's what makes shooting small arms on the suits ineffective. You are not killing any drones until I'm failing two 3+ saves. With a possible CP re-roll.

It takes on average 36 BS4+ Lasgun shots to put two wounds on a Crisis suit. Afterwards it takes 6 additional shots to kill a single drone (provided there no Shield Drones, or that the Tau player doesn't decides it's ok to lose a single suit and keeps rolling his saves as normal).

The same 36 shots kills 3 Drones when fired directly at them. If you have, like REALLY large quantities of lasguns in rapid fire range with FRFSRF (disregarding the obvious questions of why are the suits so close to a killing zone like that and why aren't the guardsmen dead), then sure, shoot them directly at the suits, but otherwise it's better to kill the drones and then shoot heavy weapons.

AleksandrGRC
Shas'Saal
Posts: 75

Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#38 » Nov 22 2017 10:53

Im thinking of giving my pocket wounds crisis stim injectors, But just that one suit.

User avatar
CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 124

Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#39 » Nov 27 2017 10:40

GND wrote:You can absolutely do that as it it explicitly stated in the rule book. "You opponent can allocate the wounds one at a time, making saving throws and suffering damage as appropriate." And since Savior Protocols trigger on each attack that successfully wounds, you make the decision one at a time. I see no other possible interpretation that would even imply I am supposed to make a single decision whether to allocate a pool of wounds either all on the Drones or all on the suits.


Where rules interpretation comes in is the fact that you have to declare it after a successful wound is rolled. That is at the end of the rolling to wound phase. Once you start rolling dice for saves, you are in the next phase and can no longer go back to the end of the previous phase. I agree with you that I personally do not interpret it this way; however, in my local meta (which is the NOVA meta) it is becoming a common argument when I try to activate savior protocols.

1. Roll to hit
2. Roll to wound (this is where successful wounds take place and where savior protocols should be activated based on RAW)
3. Allocate wounds
4. Make saving throws
5. Determine damage
6. Make FNP-like rolls

Just to be clear, I agree with you that the outlined interpretation I give above is total BS and I do not agree with it. I'm just telling you what rules lawyers are trying to tell me.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

Nymphomanius
Shas'Saal
Posts: 368
Contact:

Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#40 » Nov 27 2017 01:32

CDR_Farsight wrote:
GND wrote:You can absolutely do that as it it explicitly stated in the rule book. "You opponent can allocate the wounds one at a time, making saving throws and suffering damage as appropriate." And since Savior Protocols trigger on each attack that successfully wounds, you make the decision one at a time. I see no other possible interpretation that would even imply I am supposed to make a single decision whether to allocate a pool of wounds either all on the Drones or all on the suits.


Where rules interpretation comes in is the fact that you have to declare it after a successful wound is rolled. That is at the end of the rolling to wound phase. Once you start rolling dice for saves, you are in the next phase and can no longer go back to the end of the previous phase. I agree with you that I personally do not interpret it this way; however, in my local meta (which is the NOVA meta) it is becoming a common argument when I try to activate savior protocols.

1. Roll to hit
2. Roll to wound (this is where successful wounds take place and where savior protocols should be activated based on RAW)
3. Allocate wounds
4. Make saving throws
5. Determine damage
6. Make FNP-like rolls

Just to be clear, I agree with you that the outlined interpretation I give above is total BS and I do not agree with it. I'm just telling you what rules lawyers are trying to tell me.


The rules lawyers are both right and ridiculously wrong.
That phase structure is correct but shots are resolved 1 at a time, if your opponent is that much of a pain then insist every shot is rolled for individually. Job done, after a few shooting phases they should concede that forcing you to allocate wounds straight away is insanely trivial and just let the game continue at a reasonable pace.

User avatar
StealthKnightSteg
Shas'Saal
Posts: 195
Contact:

Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#41 » Nov 28 2017 03:32

Nymphomanius wrote:
CDR_Farsight wrote:
GND wrote:You can absolutely do that as it it explicitly stated in the rule book. "You opponent can allocate the wounds one at a time, making saving throws and suffering damage as appropriate." And since Savior Protocols trigger on each attack that successfully wounds, you make the decision one at a time. I see no other possible interpretation that would even imply I am supposed to make a single decision whether to allocate a pool of wounds either all on the Drones or all on the suits.


Where rules interpretation comes in is the fact that you have to declare it after a successful wound is rolled. That is at the end of the rolling to wound phase. Once you start rolling dice for saves, you are in the next phase and can no longer go back to the end of the previous phase. I agree with you that I personally do not interpret it this way; however, in my local meta (which is the NOVA meta) it is becoming a common argument when I try to activate savior protocols.

1. Roll to hit
2. Roll to wound (this is where successful wounds take place and where savior protocols should be activated based on RAW)
3. Allocate wounds
4. Make saving throws
5. Determine damage
6. Make FNP-like rolls

Just to be clear, I agree with you that the outlined interpretation I give above is total BS and I do not agree with it. I'm just telling you what rules lawyers are trying to tell me.


The rules lawyers are both right and ridiculously wrong.
That phase structure is correct but shots are resolved 1 at a time, if your opponent is that much of a pain then insist every shot is rolled for individually. Job done, after a few shooting phases they should concede that forcing you to allocate wounds straight away is insanely trivial and just let the game continue at a reasonable pace.


Haha very much this! Had the exact same discussion for it and also said that he should roll individually then.. he conceded the point even before rolling indivdually.

Nymphomanius
Shas'Saal
Posts: 368
Contact:

Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#42 » Nov 28 2017 04:53

StealthKnightSteg wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
CDR_Farsight wrote:
Where rules interpretation comes in is the fact that you have to declare it after a successful wound is rolled. That is at the end of the rolling to wound phase. Once you start rolling dice for saves, you are in the next phase and can no longer go back to the end of the previous phase. I agree with you that I personally do not interpret it this way; however, in my local meta (which is the NOVA meta) it is becoming a common argument when I try to activate savior protocols.

1. Roll to hit
2. Roll to wound (this is where successful wounds take place and where savior protocols should be activated based on RAW)
3. Allocate wounds
4. Make saving throws
5. Determine damage
6. Make FNP-like rolls

Just to be clear, I agree with you that the outlined interpretation I give above is total BS and I do not agree with it. I'm just telling you what rules lawyers are trying to tell me.


The rules lawyers are both right and ridiculously wrong.
That phase structure is correct but shots are resolved 1 at a time, if your opponent is that much of a pain then insist every shot is rolled for individually. Job done, after a few shooting phases they should concede that forcing you to allocate wounds straight away is insanely trivial and just let the game continue at a reasonable pace.


Haha very much this! Had the exact same discussion for it and also said that he should roll individually then.. he conceded the point even before rolling indivdually.


Well played sir, well played :fear:

User avatar
CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 124

Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#43 » Nov 29 2017 11:21

Nymphomanius wrote:
StealthKnightSteg wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:
The rules lawyers are both right and ridiculously wrong.
That phase structure is correct but shots are resolved 1 at a time, if your opponent is that much of a pain then insist every shot is rolled for individually. Job done, after a few shooting phases they should concede that forcing you to allocate wounds straight away is insanely trivial and just let the game continue at a reasonable pace.


Haha very much this! Had the exact same discussion for it and also said that he should roll individually then.. he conceded the point even before rolling indivdually.


Well played sir, well played :fear:



I'll have to give it a try...although most of the people I play are on the ITC circuit, so they are WAAC.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

Nymphomanius
Shas'Saal
Posts: 368
Contact:

Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#44 » Nov 29 2017 12:21

CDR_Farsight wrote:I'll have to give it a try...although most of the people I play are on the ITC circuit, so they are WAAC.


I may be thick but I have no idea what that means or why it makes a difference

User avatar
CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 124

Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#45 » Nov 29 2017 12:30

Nymphomanius wrote:
CDR_Farsight wrote:I'll have to give it a try...although most of the people I play are on the ITC circuit, so they are WAAC.


I may be thick but I have no idea what that means or why it makes a difference



Serious tournament players on the points leaderboards, and WAAC stands for Win At All Costs...even above making/maintaining a friendship. The types of guys who withdraw completely from a multi-day tournament if they lose a single game in an early round.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Blinx, DancinHobo and 4 guests