Burst cannon vs gun drones

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Egrimm
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Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#1 » Nov 01 2017 07:40

hi, fellow commanders!
Somebody could explain to me what is the point to pick burst cannons over gun drones on a hammerhead?
Both are 18" S5 AP0 D1, but the drones can leave the hammerhead when they want and unlike the burst cannons, benefit from the cadre fireblade's volley. And the burst cannon are 20 points vs 16 of a couple of gun drones! Am I missing something??
Thanks!

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Panzer
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#2 » Nov 01 2017 07:45

There is no point in picking Burst Cannons for any unit except for Stealth Suits to keep them cheap unfortunately. Or as secondary/tertiary weapon for Ghostkeels with CIR+ATS and Ghostkeels with ATS.
They are worse than Gun Drones and worse than Firewarrior as well.

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Arka0415
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#3 » Nov 01 2017 07:54

Egrimm wrote:Somebody could explain to me what is the point to pick burst cannons over gun drones on a hammerhead?

There is a benefit, but it's really minor and isn't worth 4 points. When the Hammerhead dies the Burst Cannons die too, whereas the Gun Drones pop out and can be immediately targeted- this gives up two kills instead of one. For kill points missions or Maelstrom missions with cards that require kills, a Hammerhead with Gun Drones is basically worth to points. Not a huge concern but something to think about.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#4 » Nov 01 2017 08:03

None at all but hopefully the codex will fix that because atm burst cannons are way too expensive they should be 6-7 pts each imho when a heavy bolter is 8 and has double the range and ap-1
And definitely don't take SMS a complete points sink

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Arka0415
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#5 » Nov 01 2017 10:09

Nymphomanius wrote:None at all but hopefully the codex will fix that because atm burst cannons are way too expensive they should be 6-7 pts each imho when a heavy bolter is 8 and has double the range and ap-1
And definitely don't take SMS a complete points sink

Totally. 6 or 7 points would be great on Burst Cannons. Wouldn't make Devilfish much cheaper, but Stealthsuits, Hammerheads, and Ghostkeels wouldn't mind.

AleksandrGRC
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#6 » Nov 09 2017 04:03

What if in the rebalance of points
Burst cannons where just free or nearly so.
6-7 points. Still make them a take when you need those last ten points or something. Free would make them perhaps to good but with maybe not with other points reduction but would make cheep suits viable.

Like it will happen
But is there any really negative reprocussions for either tau or their opponents with this? Stealth suits?
I say this coming from the perspective that most of us want points reduction not entirely but kinda across the board already anyways.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#7 » Nov 09 2017 04:29

AleksandrGRC wrote:What if in the rebalance of points
Burst cannons where just free or nearly so.
6-7 points. Still make them a take when you need those last ten points or something. Free would make them perhaps to good but with maybe not with other points reduction but would make cheep suits viable.

Like it will happen
But is there any really negative reprocussions for either tau or their opponents with this? Stealth suits?
I say this coming from the perspective that most of us want points reduction not entirely but kinda across the board already anyways.


I'm guessing English isn't your first language? Not judging just took me a while to read that and I think I know what you're saying.

Burst cannons will not be free, at 10pts they are overcosted but you're saying would it really impact the game if they were free?

Hell yeah it would you'd probably see a few people even using 3BC crisis suits as (without a fireblade) you'd get the same number of shots as 6 firewarriors but 6 pts cheaper!

I know our codex needs some reshuffling but "free" weapons are generally either
A. Basic troops default weapons (lasgun, Pulse rifle etc...)
B. A powerful unique weapon that can only be taken by 1 unit and it's cost is reflected in the cost of the unit (manticore, vindicator demolisher cannon etc..)

Yes we do want points reductions on a majority of our units, some more than others, I personally think stealth suits are fine as they are but XV88's need some serious love.

But yes as we are burst cannons are overpriced and a pulse carbine effectively costs 0.5pts and a gun drone gets 2...

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Panzer
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#8 » Nov 09 2017 05:00

I'd rather see a BC buff instead of a cost reduction to be honest. AP-1 by default would already make a huge difference (can you imagine Stealth Suits with AP-2 Burst Cannons? Even with BS4+ they would finally be able to have some impact on the board aside from delivering Flamer Crisis).
The problem is to balance the Burst Cannon between Flamer, AFP and CIB since they all pretty much do the same (anti-chaff) with the CIB being more flexible and the Flamer being more reliable (and AFP being just useless currently lol) and outside of Crisis Suits it competes with Pulse Weaponry as well.
Imo we just have way too many redundant weapon choices to balance them just with slight point adjustments. Some just need a re-work to give them a real purpose.

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Arka0415
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#9 » Nov 09 2017 06:44

Panzer wrote:Imo we just have way too many redundant weapon choices to balance them just with slight point adjustments. Some just need a re-work to give them a real purpose.

Yeah, that would be nice to see. We have a lot of redundant weaponry (four shots at S5 anyone?) because design features from previous editions are still in our index. Rapid-Fire 24" is no longer useful without JSJ, Pulse weapons having S5 isn't as interesting as it's harder to wound, S10 is no longer the maximum strength characteristic.

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Haechi
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#10 » Nov 09 2017 07:25

Burst cannons should keep their stats and cost, but be Assault 6 or 8.

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Panzer
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#11 » Nov 09 2017 07:45

Haechi wrote:Burst cannons should keep their stats and cost, but be Assault 6 or 8.

Number of shots is a stat as well. :D
But yeah higher rate of fire is certainly an option. 4 Shots never felt fitting for something that looks almost like the Space Marine Assault Cannon. They'd need to increase the rate of fire for the High output Burst Cannon then as well though. :P

Nymphomanius
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#12 » Nov 09 2017 07:50

Haechi wrote:Burst cannons should keep their stats and cost, but be Assault 6 or 8.


No because them an xv9 would be churning out 32str5 shots a turn.

Assault 4 str5 ap-1 would be better.

AFP should be 2D3 Str 4 Ap-1 ignore bonuses for cover (including penalties to hit) as the AFP was designed for clearing light entrenched infantry.

I don't know how you could rework the plasma gun as -1 Str but not overheat was the tradeoff we were happy with but now other armies don't overheat as standard and as it's the overcharged profile that's so deadly a 50-60% price drop is the only thing I can see to balance it out without giving it either D2 standard or an option to overcharge and we already have plenty of ion weapons for that...

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QimRas
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#13 » Nov 09 2017 08:18

I think there is a tactical purpose or role on the various platforms it is available.

As Arka mentioned, on the Hammerhead the switch from Gun Drones to Burst Cannons is primarily based around kill points. In a kill point game, the drones are a liability. In an objective game, they are potentially an asset. So they are situational based on that.

On Crisis suits, they are stuck between the Flamer and CIB, but still potentially hold a role. That is to get inside the suddenly ubiquitous 12" Hard to Hit bubble via manta strike and deliver significant anti-infantry firepower. The flamer potentially hits more often and wounds at a similar rate, but requires outside assistance to arrive and strike in the same turn. CIBs have less potential hits, but more likely to wound. This gives them a tactical niche as unassisted Anti-Infantry against Hard to Hit targets.

Points efficiency is a whole thing I am not going to touch. I'll let the mathhammer folks sort that out. But from a pure tactical level, that is where they would be useful using their current stats.

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Haechi
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#14 » Nov 09 2017 09:39

Nymphomanius wrote:
Haechi wrote:Burst cannons should keep their stats and cost, but be Assault 6 or 8.


No because them an xv9 would be churning out 32str5 shots a turn.

Assault 4 str5 ap-1 would be better.



Honestly I don't care about FW stuff. It's already completely out of balance, so yeah, whatever.
And if we keep our BS4+ all across the board, then I'd rather have more shots than AP.

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Panzer
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#15 » Nov 09 2017 09:50

Yeah FW stuff has NO place when we talk about Codex crunch. Whatever FW does with their units is up to them. It never really fits into the Codex anyway. GW and FW work almost completely independent of eachother.

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CDR_Farsight
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#16 » Nov 09 2017 12:18

When comparing somewhat equal points costs you can get 3 CIB suits with 9 CIBs for about the same price as 4 Flamer or BC Crisis suits with all weapons or 2 Burst with ATS. The broad wound comparison is below

At 4+ saves, Flamers actually out damage everything at all toughnesses with the exception of CIBs in overcharge at T7 or above. It's a marginal benefit for Overcharged CIBs at T7 and T9+ with a significant advantage for T8 going to overcharged CIBs.

At 2+ save, the Burst ATS outperforms the standard burst loadout at T3/T4 but the flamers still reign.

Keep in mind that weapons with any AP value scale faster than non-AP weapons when changing save values, so things that perform marginally at mid level saves get better faster as you go down the save chart (I.E. - going from a 3+ to a 2+) so CIBs will start to be more efficient than flamers at around T4 at 2+ saves or T5 at 3+ or better.

When you factor in Drones, obviously the teams of 4 crisis suits will put out 25% more damage than the team with 3 along with a durability boost both in suit and drone wounds.

Also keep in mind that to use flamers to their max efficiency, there is a 110 point minimum tax to get the homing beacon. For that price, you can add an additional Crisis with 3 CIBs and Drones or 2 CIBs with a DC and Drones to boost the 8 Drones. With that calculated, the CIBs are actually outperforming the flamers at all save values (other than no save at all or invuls) at T5 or higher with the slight advantage to the flamers at lower toughnesses and 4+ or worse save.

That is why I tend to take one flamer team and two CIB teams (I go very suit heavy because Farsight...duh). The flamers usually wipe their intended target/targets (the low toughness bad save infantry) pretty easily and the CIBs can focus on the targets that they are most efficient at tackling.

Example: My last game against ADMECH, my flamers dropped in and took out 2 ranger squads, and my two CIB teams came in and put a serious hurting on a 5 man dunestrider team and a 4 man shooty dunstrider team (I know they are called something different, but I cant remember it right now. I only left a combined 3 walkers for his counterattack.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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Panzer
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#17 » Nov 09 2017 12:51

Plus the flamer have some other traits to them. Namely completely ignoring to-hit modifier and shooting in overwatch as good as in the shooting phase (which makes a 3 Suit unit basically immune to MSU MEQ charges as long as you still have the full squad) and being able to advance&shoot without losing damage output.

The Burst Cannon really is in a tough spot and I'm honestly not sure where its place between CIB and Flamer is supposed to be. Imo the whole situation would be much clearer without CIBs being available for Suits. Then Plasma could take their place as anti-TEQ weapon back and Burst Cannons could get buffed to claim their 18" anti-GEQ/MEQ weapon place again.
Independently of me not liking Ion weaponry being almost always the better choice....maybe it's really better for the internal balance when Crisis lose access to CIBs.

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CDR_Farsight
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Re: Burst cannon vs gun drones

Post#18 » Nov 09 2017 01:37

I actually think a great place to take Burst Cannons would be to increase their range to 24". At 18" most crisis teams find themselves having to wipe everything in front of them, or be subject to charges, especially in this edition where re-rolls and modifiers make charging easier.

I would even go so far as to redefine what should be considered close, mid, and long range in 8th due to new movement characteristics. I would consider anything less than 18" close, 18"-30" mid, and 30"+ long.

The missile pod is currently the only option to keep your suits marginally safe, and where suits really get hammered is volume of shots and/or close combat attacks which it somehow seems that most armies can now out shoot us at all ranges as far as volume and strength goes (still scratching my head here). A 24" BC even at 4 S5 shots gives us an option that currently does not exist in our codex...the ability to put out a decent volume of fire and the ability to position to avoid most charges.

One thing I have noticed quite a lot though is how many armies have seriously good -AP modifiers across a much larger percentage of their army for very low cost with great volume of cc attacks or volume of fire 3+ BS or 4+ BS with an easy way to get to 3+ or to double shots at 4+ (sometimes even at 3+). I don't think I have been allowed more than a handful of 3+ or 4+ armor saves in any of my last 3 games vs Space Wolves, Eldar, and ADMECH. It was quite annoying, and looking back, there was no way I could have afforded to sacrifice any of my firepower for invul saves as that would have made it nearly impossible to kill much of anything and would have a seriously detrimental impact on use of savior protocols. The elder guy was hitting me with 6D6 S6 AP-3 shots each turn ignoring LoS and range, hitting on BS 3+ AND rerolling all failed hits and wounds coming from only about 450 points of his army...talk about a friggin crisis team killer.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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