Chapter Approved Leaks Discussion

Use this area for all discussions of the "gaming" aspect of 40K/Tau.
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QimRas
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Re: Chapter Approved Leaks Discussion

Post#55 » Nov 25 2017 09:41

*sigh*
The Ta'unar change (as well as the other Titan class models who got similar changes) is likely necessary, and really does not effect the Ta'unar all that much.

First of all, all Titan class models were originally produced to operate in Apocalypse scale games, not the standard scale. And if you look at the Table of Contents for Chapter Approved that has been leaked you may notice that Apocalypse is classed as an Open Play game mode. Who cares, right? Yeah, well, it matters. Because -points are not used- for Open Play games. The missions all reference against Power Level. And because the Ta'unar (as well as other Titan class models effected) are not being issued new Datasheets, that means their Power Level is unchanged. So this change literally has zero effect on the Ta'unar in the game mode its intended to be played in.

How does it change? It only changes it for matched play, which is intended for tournaments. So all this does is soft lock the Ta'unar and other titan class models from showing up at tournaments. Which is a good thing in my opinion.

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DominayTrix
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Re: Chapter Approved Leaks Discussion

Post#56 » Nov 25 2017 09:43

shasocastris wrote:As a reply to both of you, enough. This forum is not the place to gripe about individuals in various gaming circuits. Nor is it the place to have a go at each other. This thread and the forum as a whole is a place to discuss the various aspects of our Tau armies.

If you want to keep having a go at each other, do it on your own time. Further flaming and/or baiting of each other will result in moderator action.

-shasocastris

While I agree people should not witch hunt individuals and should not flame each other, we got royally screwed by the playtesters and GW. I say both because we do not have any real idea how much influence the playtesters had in general let alone a single one. We don't know if the playtesters screamed buff Tau or wanted us to get squated. However, we should not be quiet about how badly we got shafted if we don't want this to keep happening...

We got fed "your army is fine" followed by "just wait til chapter approved." This is after things like shield drones taking 2 FAQs to work properly and the Tigershark AX-1 not even being able to fire its main guns without an FAQ. The Cadre fireblade has "T'aught" lazily copy pasted on their store for months now. The cadre fireblade was temporarily unavailable/out of stock at least one time on the NA site and now he is in stock so that means they would have touched the page at least once after the typo and it still did not get fixed.

I think its fair to say there's something wonky going on with the Tau QA and we need to come up with a positive way to get GW to fix it. Voting with your wallet is a good start.

PeeJ
Shas'La
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Re: Chapter Approved Leaks Discussion

Post#57 » Nov 25 2017 11:09

QimRas wrote:*sigh*
The Ta'unar change (as well as the other Titan class models who got similar changes) is likely necessary, and really does not effect the Ta'unar all that much.

First of all, all Titan class models were originally produced to operate in Apocalypse scale games, not the standard scale. And if you look at the Table of Contents for Chapter Approved that has been leaked you may notice that Apocalypse is classed as an Open Play game mode. Who cares, right? Yeah, well, it matters. Because -points are not used- for Open Play games. The missions all reference oi Power Level. And because the Ta'unar (as well as other Titan class models effected) are not being issued new Datasheets, that means their Power Level is unchanged. So this change literally has zero effect on the Ta'unar in the game mode its intended to be played in.

How does it change? It only changes it for matched play, which is intended for tournaments. So all this does is soft lock the Ta'unar and other titan class models from showing up at tournaments. Which is a good thing in my opinion.


Interesting, I'd not seen the apoc is open play bit (not seen that image), thanks for pointing it out, in that case the taunar change isn't bad at all then.

The thing that irritated me was in changing it so that it's was only usable in apoc games (via the points hike) they also made it hugely inefficient and thus not worth taking in apoc over other stuff. Which obviously would make a pretty expensive model useless. I thought it was a lazy/half-assed way to fix an issue.

However, now you've pointed out the apoc/power level thing I'm all for the points change and think it's a pretty well done fix to people bringing titan class weaponry to 'regular' games, which in itself was a bit crappy of people.

CMO
Shas
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Re: Chapter Approved Leaks Discussion

Post#58 » Nov 26 2017 02:01

I think that the most disappointing aspect of this is the half-measures that we seem to be continually fed during 8th edition. I know that it’s a huge project to rewrite all the codices and revamp every aspect of such a sprawling game, but I just can’t see the value in a weak stopgap that has virtually zero in-game effect for the armies that most need a helping hand. There is no goodwill being built up by Games Workshop in charging money for a book advertised as a rebalance which in reality is anything but - not to say that there is no value in the new missions and hobby aspect in the wider context of 40k. The company seems oblivious to the problems faced by actual Tau players in casual matched play as opposed to the tiny fraction of gamers who participate in high profile tournaments in America. So far, in the six months of 8th edition, I have been most disappointed in the lack of variety I have faced across the table and the lack of variety I have been able to justify in my own army lists. 8th edition is frankly boring, which may at least be addressed by the Chapter Approved book.

Rambling post: CA is disappointing in the short term for tau players, but probably good for the game overall.

armisael
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Re: Chapter Approved Leaks Discussion

Post#59 » Nov 26 2017 02:19

See this quote from FLG

“Not every army got points changes and I will leave you all to figure that out but there is a logical reason for it which is not that GW doesn’t like your faction. A little patience will see that mystery resolved I am sure. And, while we may not all agree on each specific points change, it is great to see GW moving to balance the game which makes it more enjoyable for more people.”

Do they hint something?

DancinHobo
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Re: Chapter Approved Leaks Discussion

Post#60 » Nov 26 2017 04:26

Chances are that when an army gets their codex, they will have new rules for the units. Sub faction rules. All the stratagems and warlord traits. With all this point changes as well. Even if they get point changes in chapter approved. I know Tau seem to need it bad, but if they are just gonna change the points again in a month, that’s fine. Personally, I would rather be getting my codex sooner then needing to use chapter approved longer! Chapter approved will help the other armies some, but not like a codex will.

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Bloodknife92
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Re: Chapter Approved Leaks Discussion

Post#61 » Nov 26 2017 05:20

Those Warlord traits seem a bit pointless and silly, but I can still imagine an effective way to use them in a battle. The Markerlight strategem seems a little bit powerful for what it costs, but in lieu of that, our Markerlights were already disappointing and needed something like this. Now I hopefully never need to bring more than 10 Pathfinders and my Cadre Fireblade! The relic is making me mad, because I'm getting real tired of T'au being pumped full of "one use" weapons and abilities. This really hinders us in the late game when all our one use abilities and weapons are all gone.

As for the Warlord Traits, I would definitely be putting the Kau'yon one on my Ethereal toward the back with my Pathfinders and Broadsides, or on my Cadre Fireblade with my blob of Fire Warriors, allowing me to still use Master of War: Kau'yon with my Commander while he's somewhere else. This also allows me to reliably Manta Strike my Commander and Crisis suits without feeling like I'm putting a huge hindrance on my back line.
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Nymphomanius
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Re: Chapter Approved Leaks Discussion

Post#62 » Nov 26 2017 05:40

Bloodknife92 wrote:
As for the Warlord Traits, I would definitely be putting the Kau'yon one on my Ethereal toward the back with my Pathfinders and Broadsides, or on my Cadre Fireblade with my blob of Fire Warriors, allowing me to still use Master of War: Kau'yon with my Commander while he's somewhere else. This also allows me to reliably Manta Strike my Commander and Crisis suits without feeling like I'm putting a huge hindrance on my back line.


I think you misunderstood what the Warlord trait does, master of kauyon only allows the Warlord to reroll hits if he doesn't move not units within 6" so putting it on an ethereal is pointless.

Otherwise I'd put it on a missile Commander and 3 XV8 with missile pods too lol :biggrin:

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Beerson
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Re: Chapter Approved Leaks Discussion

Post#63 » Nov 26 2017 09:56

armisael wrote:See this quote from FLG

“Not every army got points changes and I will leave you all to figure that out but there is a logical reason for it which is not that GW doesn’t like your faction. A little patience will see that mystery resolved I am sure. And, while we may not all agree on each specific points change, it is great to see GW moving to balance the game which makes it more enjoyable for more people.”

Do they hint something?

The most logical thing here would be that those armies get reworked datasheets so the point changes that are going to be in codex would not make sense and rather piss off people,

but as we are talking about GW here I'd bet they don't have the point changes figured out yet and justify it by "your codex is coming out in Q1 anyway"

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SniperTau
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Re: Chapter Approved Leaks Discussion

Post#64 » Nov 26 2017 01:41

Well, late last night, I just thought of something. if the Master of Mont-ka trait makes it so you don't count as having moved, how would that interact with Kauyon?

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Maxwell
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Re: Chapter Approved Leaks Discussion

Post#65 » Nov 26 2017 02:00

Emberkahn wrote:1) If you are buying a model only to pay to win, don't have a lot of sympathy. Balance changes always happen, and you should expect them, especially when we don't even have a codex.

2) It's not functionally equivalent. It is still fantastic, and easily the toughest titan around thanks to drones. The problem was that before anyone bringing a large titan to a normal game would win by default.


Again, I don’t have one but if you call doubling the points of something normal balance then you’re nuts. It significantly changes the usability of your purchase. Maybe some other changes are pending. Guess we’ll see.

pilky
Shas'La
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Re: Chapter Approved Leaks Discussion

Post#66 » Nov 26 2017 03:33

PeeJ wrote:
pilky wrote:It doesn’t invalidate anything. You still had the enjoyment of building it and painting it. It's just now it's only really any use in apocalypse games (which is where something of that power really should be)


Except that it really does.

The model wasn't overpowered for its points, now it has doubled in points. So why would you ever take it in an apoc game over say, tiger sharks and storm surges, which are more points efficient by far?


Because it's still a fun model that looks great on the table? If you're playing apocalypse then generally little things like "strategy" and "points efficiency" are thrown out the window in favour of "BIG MODELS GO DAKKA AND SMASHA" ;)

Nymphomanius
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Re: Chapter Approved Leaks Discussion

Post#67 » Nov 26 2017 04:04

Maxwell wrote:
Emberkahn wrote:1) If you are buying a model only to pay to win, don't have a lot of sympathy. Balance changes always happen, and you should expect them, especially when we don't even have a codex.

2) It's not functionally equivalent. It is still fantastic, and easily the toughest titan around thanks to drones. The problem was that before anyone bringing a large titan to a normal game would win by default.


Again, I don’t have one but if you call doubling the points of something normal balance then you’re nuts. It significantly changes the usability of your purchase. Maybe some other changes are pending. Guess we’ll see.


You mean like almost all suits in 8th ed? My broadsides went from 65pts to 184pts and GW expect the same money from people

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: Chapter Approved Leaks Discussion

Post#68 » Nov 26 2017 04:46

armisael wrote:See this quote from FLG

“Not every army got points changes and I will leave you all to figure that out but there is a logical reason for it which is not that GW doesn’t like your faction. A little patience will see that mystery resolved I am sure. And, while we may not all agree on each specific points change, it is great to see GW moving to balance the game which makes it more enjoyable for more people.”

Do they hint something?


The logic is that any point changes done would be point changes done for Index: T'au and specifically how Index: T'au functions. When Codex: T'au comes out, the entire way that T'au functions would change because of new stratagems, relics, warlord traits, and sept rules. So the point costs would have to change again.

Dark Angels and Blood Angels are not on the list because their codex comes out next month. It would make no sense for GW to update their point costs.

This is likely from a stand point of "work smart not hard" - don't do double the work and to manage customer expectations - "I bought Chapter Approved because it had my army update in it, but one month later my codex came out?! What the heck!"

I would guess that T'au are coming out in January or February.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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leo1925
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Re: Chapter Approved Leaks Discussion

Post#69 » Nov 26 2017 06:10

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
armisael wrote:See this quote from FLG

“Not every army got points changes and I will leave you all to figure that out but there is a logical reason for it which is not that GW doesn’t like your faction. A little patience will see that mystery resolved I am sure. And, while we may not all agree on each specific points change, it is great to see GW moving to balance the game which makes it more enjoyable for more people.”

Do they hint something?


The logic is that any point changes done would be point changes done for Index: T'au and specifically how Index: T'au functions. When Codex: T'au comes out, the entire way that T'au functions would change because of new stratagems, relics, warlord traits, and sept rules. So the point costs would have to change again.

Dark Angels and Blood Angels are not on the list because their codex comes out next month. It would make no sense for GW to update their point costs.

This is likely from a stand point of "work smart not hard" - don't do double the work and to manage customer expectations - "I bought Chapter Approved because it had my army update in it, but one month later my codex came out?! What the heck!"

I would guess that T'au are coming out in January or February.


I agree with you, but they should have said so, well maybe they will say it in the coming week.

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SinisterSamurai
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Re: Chapter Approved Leaks Discussion

Post#70 » Nov 26 2017 07:04

AnonAmbientLight wrote:The logic is that any point changes done would be point changes done for Index: T'au and specifically how Index: T'au functions. When Codex: T'au comes out, the entire way that T'au functions would change because of new stratagems, relics, warlord traits, and sept rules. So the point costs would have to change again.

This logic holds for all of the factions.

I haven't exactly shared my opinions on this, yet, largely because opinions can easily become volatile. But the facts are these:
1) T'au remains largely unaffected by Chapter Approved, at least comparatively.
2) Chapter Approved is available for preorder, and we don't know when our codex is going to be released.

There is a prevailing notion that our lack of Chapter Approved changes reflects an upcoming Codex release, and I see people holding this up as a silver lining. This includes VIPs like Reece, who may not be a direct GW employee is seen as having insider access into the design process, and is sort of a next-step-down-from-official representative of GW's policy. His "strong hints" may be seen as soft confirmation of an upcoming T'au release.

But so what? Facts 1 and 2 remain unaltered. GW has released no information about their release schedule past mid-January, and Chapter Approved is being billed as a patch. Perhaps the codex changes so much that the playtest team had to make a tough choice between playtesting and improving the Index builds, or playtesting and improving the codex builds. While the choice of focusing on Codex gameplay and bugfixing is ideal in a scenario where CA would be invalidated within a month or two of release, that still doesn't alter the information provided to the customer base.

GW is collecting pre-orders for Chapter Approved from interested T'au players under the sales pitch that it will make significant changes to the way all factions play, but has been less than transparent about it's minimum impact on T'au. Even if they make the schedule announcement on Monday and we find out that our codex comes out mid-January, GW will have committed, at best, an anti-consumer practice. And I highly suspect we won't be given that information until well after Chapter Approved has collected purchases from uninformed players expecting more, and maybe not even until after Christmas funds get spent on it.

GW has something of an image problem. They have been accused of several negative business practices in the past, and while that image is certainly turning around as late, it hasn't quite turned fast enough to prevent this conflict of interest. I can't say that Chapter Approved has been handled in an unexpected way for GW or of any business, but I can't say that this has been handled in a way that instills confidence in their business practice.

Nymphomanius
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Re: Chapter Approved Leaks Discussion

Post#71 » Nov 26 2017 07:34

Though maybe we are looking at this from the wrong angle, yes maybe we didn't have any non FW points reductions but many armies had points increases, astra millitarum had the cost of melta go up for their BS3+ or better models go up by 25%
4 melta wielding deepstriking tempestus went from 88 to 104 pts,

Conscripts went up by 33% a 30 man squad now costing 120pts instead of 90 and commisars got nerfed in the last faq.

So the added tax on other more powerful codex armies does add a little extra value to our units.

Also rowboat girlyman's gone up 10% that's like 3 less space Marines to shoot at :D

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: Chapter Approved Leaks Discussion

Post#72 » Nov 26 2017 08:37

SinisterSamurai wrote:
AnonAmbientLight wrote:The logic is that any point changes done would be point changes done for Index: T'au and specifically how Index: T'au functions. When Codex: T'au comes out, the entire way that T'au functions would change because of new stratagems, relics, warlord traits, and sept rules. So the point costs would have to change again.

This logic holds for all of the factions.

I haven't exactly shared my opinions on this, yet, largely because opinions can easily become volatile. But the facts are these:
1) T'au remains largely unaffected by Chapter Approved, at least comparatively.
2) Chapter Approved is available for preorder, and we don't know when our codex is going to be released.

There is a prevailing notion that our lack of Chapter Approved changes reflects an upcoming Codex release, and I see people holding this up as a silver lining. This includes VIPs like Reece, who may not be a direct GW employee is seen as having insider access into the design process, and is sort of a next-step-down-from-official representative of GW's policy. His "strong hints" may be seen as soft confirmation of an upcoming T'au release.

But so what? Facts 1 and 2 remain unaltered. GW has released no information about their release schedule past mid-January, and Chapter Approved is being billed as a patch.


Chapter Approved isn't a patch and they are not really claiming it is. A portion, a fraction really, of the book are point updates and 3-5 new rules per army for armies that do not have them. The vast majority of the book covers new rules and what is essentially FAQs for the main codex. Like how characters interact when it comes time to shoot, and who gets Obj Sec.

SinisterSamurai wrote:Perhaps the codex changes so much that the playtest team had to make a tough choice between playtesting and improving the Index builds, or playtesting and improving the codex builds. While the choice of focusing on Codex gameplay and bugfixing is ideal in a scenario where CA would be invalidated within a month or two of release, that still doesn't alter the information provided to the customer base.


It is more likely that when the game was being redone for 8th, they tried to make it as stable as possible. Playtesters or what they really are, beta testers, can only do so much and catch so many problems. With games, or really anything, releasing a stable version and letting hundreds and thousands of people play it will always yield better results. That's pretty much true of anything and that's what happened with 8th.


SinisterSamurai wrote:GW is collecting pre-orders for Chapter Approved from interested T'au players under the sales pitch that it will make significant changes to the way all factions play, but has been less than transparent about it's minimum impact on T'au. Even if they make the schedule announcement on Monday and we find out that our codex comes out mid-January, GW will have committed, at best, an anti-consumer practice. And I highly suspect we won't be given that information until well after Chapter Approved has collected purchases from uninformed players expecting more, and maybe not even until after Christmas funds get spent on it.


If you follow the warhammer community page, you would see why it isn't a bait and switch tactic like you are claiming. Only one or two of the eight or ten Chapter Approved posts mention army balance. The rest are new game modes or FAQs.

I do think that point cost updates and army rules should be posted on the website. Then again, these things get leaked rather easily. We know all the rules for all the armies and the point costs before anyone has had a chance to purchase them. Something GW doesn't seem to be worried about, hence pretty much every major community website is able to freely talk about the leaked rules.

SinisterSamurai wrote:GW has something of an image problem. They have been accused of several negative business practices in the past, and while that image is certainly turning around as late, it hasn't quite turned fast enough to prevent this conflict of interest. I can't say that Chapter Approved has been handled in an unexpected way for GW or of any business, but I can't say that this has been handled in a way that instills confidence in their business practice.


Which would be what? Old GW would be putting out cease and desist orders on every website that puts out leaked info. Anyone that has a computer, and is involved with the warhammer community in any fashion will know whats going on.

I can't say that your concerns are grounded.

Nymphomanius wrote:Though maybe we are looking at this from the wrong angle, yes maybe we didn't have any non FW points reductions but many armies had points increases, astra millitarum had the cost of melta go up for their BS3+ or better models go up by 25%
4 melta wielding deepstriking tempestus went from 88 to 104 pts,

Conscripts went up by 33% a 30 man squad now costing 120pts instead of 90 and commisars got nerfed in the last faq.

So the added tax on other more powerful codex armies does add a little extra value to our units.

Also rowboat girlyman's gone up 10% that's like 3 less space Marines to shoot at :D


I find it is often about perspective and sometimes the echo chamber causes people to not realize the greater picture.

There are Ultra Marine players on their forums complaining about the cost of Rowboat.

There are Guard players complaining about how useless conscripts are now.

Grass is always greener and all that.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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