Frontline Gaming - Chapter Approved - Review Discussion

Use this area for all discussions of the "gaming" aspect of 40K/Tau.
User avatar
leo1925
Shas
Posts: 83

Re: Frontline Gaming - Chapter Approved - Review Discussion

Post#19 » Nov 28 2017 05:17

Lostroninsoul wrote:How do relics work? I'm still new to Warhammer (only played 13 games since I started in end of June). Either way, the warlord traits seem great for longstrike. With exemplar of Kauyon, longstrike can shoot 'hard to hit' targets with 97.2℅ accuracy WITHOUT markerlight support :eek:. That blows my mind. The relic can give extra chances for extra damage. The relic has a potential to just earn free command points! This is stupid good for the markerlight stratagem we just acquired. I just need to learn how relics work now :P.


The Exemplar of the Kauyon doesn't help you with "hard to hit", at all.
On Longstrike this trait is useful, in fact it's the only character that it's somewhat useful, the issue is that it's useful (i.e. better than 1 markerlight) only when Longstrike is on the bottom line of the damage chart and shooting a non "hard to hit" target AND when being on the second line of the damage chart while shooting a "hard to hit" target.
The Exemplar of the Mont’Ka on the other hand is useful on Longstrike, commanders and fireblades. It allows Longstrike to move 12+d6" and shooting like he hasn't moved at all which is the equivalent* of the 3rd markerlight (which allows you to move 12" and not 12+d6").

*in fact it's better if we get the double tap rule on our hammerheads

User avatar
leo1925
Shas
Posts: 83

Re: Frontline Gaming - Chapter Approved - Review Discussion

Post#20 » Nov 28 2017 05:20

Sheeb wrote:I guess the stratagem is pretty good. But we still are at BS4 4+, NIDS can have their shooty bugs at BS 3+, sooooo why are Starship Trooper esq bugs BETTER than Tau shooting? (Shooting twice, & better weapons) Everything has BS 4+ (except ork boys but they can't hit anything because they are beasts in combat).


We do have BS 3 on our "heavy" tanks :biggrin: .
To be fair the shooting twice rule has appeared only in codices and there is a chance we also get it.

User avatar
nic
Kroot'La
Kroot'La
Posts: 809

Re: Frontline Gaming - Chapter Approved - Review Discussion

Post#21 » Nov 28 2017 05:29

leo1925 wrote:
The Exemplar of the Kauyon doesn't help you with "hard to hit", at all.
On Longstrike this trait is useful, in fact it's the only character that it's somewhat useful, the issue is that it's useful (i.e. better than 1 markerlight) only when Longstrike is on the bottom line of the damage chart and shooting a non "hard to hit" target AND when being on the second line of the damage chart while shooting a "hard to hit" target.
The Exemplar of the Mont’Ka on the other hand is useful on Longstrike, commanders and fireblades. It allows Longstrike to move 12+d6" and shooting like he hasn't moved at all which is the equivalent* of the 3rd markerlight (which allows you to move 12" and not 12+d6").

*in fact it's better if we get the double tap rule on our hammerheads


Exemplar of Kauyon is far too situational and I think we are pretty much all in agreement it is a weak Warlord trait. If you are picking traits for each game then I suppose I might consider it if facing a gimmick Culexus Assassin list.

Exemplar of Mont'ka is fairly useful and on balance probably better than any of the BRB traits for the way I build my lists - for other players one of the BRB traits might be better. I am OK with a trait this is good enough but not an auto-pick for every player.

User avatar
AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 866

Re: Frontline Gaming - Chapter Approved - Review Discussion

Post#22 » Nov 28 2017 06:08

Sheeb wrote:I guess the stratagem is pretty good. But we still are at BS4 4+, NIDS can have their shooty bugs at BS 3+, sooooo why are Starship Trooper esq bugs BETTER than Tau shooting? (Shooting twice, & better weapons) Everything has BS 4+ (except ork boys but they can't hit anything because they are beasts in combat).


Index Tyranid do not have a plethora of BS 3+ units. Their HQs don't even get 2+. The majority of their units are BS4 or BS5.

I took a peak at Codex: Tyranid and it is much the same. I don't know what unit you are referring to that shoots twice and I would argue that their weapons are weaker than T'au weapons. The important ones, like melta, and high strength weapons are largely absent in their codex. They also lack a reliable way to bring those weapons to bare like a Commander can with Fusion.

Aside from that, it's never worth it to compare and contrast codexies as it is apples to oranges.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2201

Re: Frontline Gaming - Chapter Approved - Review Discussion

Post#23 » Nov 28 2017 06:22

AnonAmbientLight wrote:I took a peak at Codex: Tyranid and it is much the same. I don't know what unit you are referring to that shoots twice and I would argue that their weapons are weaker than T'au weapons.

The shoots-twice thing is about this little guy...

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Exocrine

Nothing like a double-firing high-accuracy bio-plasma doom cannon to make other shooty armies drool with envy :D When it comes to blistering long-range firepower, we have nothing that can touch this guy.

(Also, don't quote me on it, but I think the Tyrannofex has the same double tap trick albeit with an even scarier gun!)

User avatar
leo1925
Shas
Posts: 83

Re: Frontline Gaming - Chapter Approved - Review Discussion

Post#24 » Nov 28 2017 06:25

Arka0415 wrote:
Sheeb wrote:Why does GW hate T'au players? The codex better see some significant stratagems. Everyone can shoot better than T'au. Where is the special finessing that it takes to play T'au?

While the article is a bit patronizing, the and the Traits are bad, the Relic is decent and the Stratagem is very, very, very good. GW doesn't hate us.


I am not sure if it's (a little) patronizing or simply written by someone who only has a shallow knowledge of the Tau in 8th.
I disagree, the stratagem isn't very, very, very good. I think that it's just good, with the current markerlight table, a lot of lists will be able to add 1-3 makerlights per turn to a single target. In essence it allows to speed up our (mediocre) force multiplier against a single target.

Let's compare it to AM's overlapping fields of fire stratagem. It costs 2 cp (but remember that AM has WAY easier access to CP) and it requires an unsaved wound on a target. After activation, every unit* of your army get +1 to shoot that target. So it pratically requires a unit to shoot at an enemy (like we do need to do for our stratagem), get a post save wound in order for the rest of your army to get +1 to hit against the target.
Let's recap:
1) It costs more than ours (but AM has more CP than us**)
2) It requires an unsaved wound as opposed to our successful hit BUT you don't need a specific weapon to do so like we do (all in all i would say that it's a bit harder to activate than our stratagem).
3) It gives another force multiplier on top of their already existing force multipliers*** while our stratagem makes it easier to get our existing force multiplier.

That's why i think that overlapping fields of fire is a great stratagem and ours is just a good one. Thankfully overlapping fields of fire is Cadian only and not an AM general stratagem.

*it says cadian units (which is like saying T'au sept) but since it affects shooting the only unit that is left out are militarum tempestus
**yes, the codex might close the gap somewhat between us and the AM on the CP but i highly doubt will be able to get their number of CP
***which are better than ours but let's not dwell on that
Last edited by leo1925 on Nov 28 2017 06:40, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Czar Ziggy
Fio'Ui
Fio'Ui
Posts: 556
Contact:

Re: Frontline Gaming - Chapter Approved - Review Discussion

Post#25 » Nov 28 2017 06:27

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
Sheeb wrote:I guess the stratagem is pretty good. But we still are at BS4 4+, NIDS can have their shooty bugs at BS 3+, sooooo why are Starship Trooper esq bugs BETTER than Tau shooting? (Shooting twice, & better weapons) Everything has BS 4+ (except ork boys but they can't hit anything because they are beasts in combat).


Index Tyranid do not have a plethora of BS 3+ units. Their HQs don't even get 2+. The majority of their units are BS4 or BS5.

I took a peak at Codex: Tyranid and it is much the same. I don't know what unit you are referring to that shoots twice and I would argue that their weapons are weaker than T'au weapons. The important ones, like melta, and high strength weapons are largely absent in their codex. They also lack a reliable way to bring those weapons to bare like a Commander can with Fusion.

Aside from that, it's never worth it to compare and contrast codexies as it is apples to oranges.


There are 2 units that can fire twice. One is the Tyranofex and the other is the exocrine. The exocrine can also fire at bs3+ when it remains stationary.

Czar Ziggy

User avatar
leo1925
Shas
Posts: 83

Re: Frontline Gaming - Chapter Approved - Review Discussion

Post#26 » Nov 28 2017 06:33

Arka0415 wrote:
AnonAmbientLight wrote:I took a peak at Codex: Tyranid and it is much the same. I don't know what unit you are referring to that shoots twice and I would argue that their weapons are weaker than T'au weapons.

The shoots-twice thing is about this little guy...

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Exocrine

Nothing like a double-firing high-accuracy bio-plasma doom cannon to make other shooty armies drool with envy :D When it comes to blistering long-range firepower, we have nothing that can touch this guy.

(Also, don't quote me on it, but I think the Tyrannofex has the same double tap trick albeit with an even scarier gun!)

Yes the tyrannofex has it also but instead of +1 to hit in shooting when not moving (that's how the exocrine goes to "BS 3") it has a move and fire heavy weapons with no penalty on it's BS 4. Considering that it only has a move of 6" and it needs to be stationary in order to shoot twice it isn't as helpful as the exocrine's +1 to hit.

User avatar
AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 866

Re: Frontline Gaming - Chapter Approved - Review Discussion

Post#27 » Nov 28 2017 07:18

Arka0415 wrote:
AnonAmbientLight wrote:I took a peak at Codex: Tyranid and it is much the same. I don't know what unit you are referring to that shoots twice and I would argue that their weapons are weaker than T'au weapons.

The shoots-twice thing is about this little guy...

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Exocrine

Nothing like a double-firing high-accuracy bio-plasma doom cannon to make other shooty armies drool with envy :D When it comes to blistering long-range firepower, we have nothing that can touch this guy.

(Also, don't quote me on it, but I think the Tyrannofex has the same double tap trick albeit with an even scarier gun!)


Yea, but that's like their only useful shooting unit out of the entire codex. It also loses its major benefits if it has to move for any reason and it will likely have to move at some point during the game. On a proper field, you could LoS it more often than not. It would only be useful for covering lanes, and even then T'au have the longrange capabilities to take it out or cause major damage.

Which is all pretty steep for a 216pt unit.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

Nymphomanius
Shas'Saal
Posts: 375
Contact:

Re: Frontline Gaming - Chapter Approved - Review Discussion

Post#28 » Nov 28 2017 07:43

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:
AnonAmbientLight wrote:I took a peak at Codex: Tyranid and it is much the same. I don't know what unit you are referring to that shoots twice and I would argue that their weapons are weaker than T'au weapons.

The shoots-twice thing is about this little guy...

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Exocrine

Nothing like a double-firing high-accuracy bio-plasma doom cannon to make other shooty armies drool with envy :D When it comes to blistering long-range firepower, we have nothing that can touch this guy.

(Also, don't quote me on it, but I think the Tyrannofex has the same double tap trick albeit with an even scarier gun!)


Yea, but that's like their only useful shooting unit out of the entire codex. It also loses its major benefits if it has to move for any reason and it will likely have to move at some point during the game. On a proper field, you could LoS it more often than not. It would only be useful for covering lanes, and even then T'au have the longrange capabilities to take it out or cause major damage.

Which is all pretty steep for a 216pt unit.


Only is a bit steep and for 14pts more you can get 2 dakkafex putting out 48str6 shots with BS3+ at 18" assault weapons and I've been on the receiving end of that it's downright terrifying the amount of shots they put out. Especially for a T7 8 wounds 3+ Sv model that's always in cover and -1 to hit from shooting.

User avatar
Haechi
Shas'Saal
Posts: 148

Re: Frontline Gaming - Chapter Approved - Review Discussion

Post#29 » Nov 28 2017 07:57

They also have a stratagem to make any unit shoot again at the end of the shooting phase. Cumulative with another one that adds 1 damage to a shooting weapon. They can have insane shooting combos, far beyond what we can bring to the table.

Nymphomanius
Shas'Saal
Posts: 375
Contact:

Re: Frontline Gaming - Chapter Approved - Review Discussion

Post#30 » Nov 28 2017 08:03

Haechi wrote:They also have a stratagem to make any unit shoot again at the end of the shooting phase. Cumulative with another one that adds 1 damage to a shooting weapon. They can have insane shooting combos, far beyond what we can bring to the table.


Hilariously and ironically the orks had a better shooting stratagem than us also I'd kill for their new stratagem :fear: :crafty:

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2201

Re: Frontline Gaming - Chapter Approved - Review Discussion

Post#31 » Nov 28 2017 08:59

AnonAmbientLight wrote:Yea, but that's like their only useful shooting unit out of the entire codex...

...and even then T'au have the longrange capabilities to take it out or cause major damage.

They have two useful shooting units, and they're both really, really good. No issue with having few choices if those choices are great.

Remember that Tau have no good long-range shooting units. Our best "long-range" gun has 20" range.

User avatar
Lostroninsoul
Shas'Saal
Posts: 226

Re: Frontline Gaming - Chapter Approved - Review Discussion

Post#32 » Nov 28 2017 09:46

leo1925 wrote:The Exemplar of the Kauyon doesn't help you with "hard to hit", at all.
On Longstrike this trait is useful, in fact it's the only character that it's somewhat useful, the issue is that it's useful (i.e. better than 1 markerlight) only when Longstrike is on the bottom line of the damage chart and shooting a non "hard to hit" target AND when being on the second line of the damage chart while shooting a "hard to hit" target.
The Exemplar of the Mont’Ka on the other hand is useful on Longstrike, commanders and fireblades. It allows Longstrike to move 12+d6" and shooting like he hasn't moved at all which is the equivalent* of the 3rd markerlight (which allows you to move 12" and not 12+d6").

*in fact it's better if we get the double tap rule on our hammerheads

Good catch on my typo I meant "fire caste Exemplar" shoots hard to hit. His buff affects himself negating the - 1 to hit rolls. Add the exemplar of kayoun trait and profit.

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2201

Re: Frontline Gaming - Chapter Approved - Review Discussion

Post#33 » Nov 28 2017 10:57

Lostroninsoul wrote:Good catch on my typo I meant "fire caste Exemplar" shoots hard to hit. His buff affects himself negating the - 1 to hit rolls. Add the exemplar of kayoun trait and profit.

Is "Exemplar of Kauyon" really worth it though? You can get re-roll 1s almost anywhere in the Index.

User avatar
leo1925
Shas
Posts: 83

Re: Frontline Gaming - Chapter Approved - Review Discussion

Post#34 » Nov 28 2017 11:08

Arka0415 wrote:
Lostroninsoul wrote:Good catch on my typo I meant "fire caste Exemplar" shoots hard to hit. His buff affects himself negating the - 1 to hit rolls. Add the exemplar of kayoun trait and profit.

Is "Exemplar of Kauyon" really worth it though? You can get re-roll 1s almost anywhere in the Index.


It is somewhat useful only in Longstrike and only in the cases i mentioned earlier.

User avatar
SinisterSamurai
Kor'La
Kor'La
Posts: 417

Re: Frontline Gaming - Chapter Approved - Review Discussion

Post#35 » Nov 29 2017 06:15

Someone pointed out that Kauyon is reroll all misses, and while reroll ones may seem just as useful on commanders and BS2+ models, it was also recently suggested to me that Kauyon works during Overwatch, and again during the fight phase. Still situational, as getting charged isn't ideal for Tau, but worth considering if you are playing gunline, anyway.


As for the Markerlight stratagem, I have seen people suggesting that they'll use it multiple times to get guaranteed markerlights, but remember that in Match Play, a stratagem can only be used once-per-phase.

Nymphomanius wrote:They never have in the past and non weapon relics don't replace any wargear in other books you just "take" them.

Not quite. In 7E, Crisis Battle Suit Shas'vres could take up to three items from the Ranged, Support, or Signature Systems(relics) list, so for them Sigs took up a flexible hard point. I don't have access to my 6th and earlier codices at the moment.

Commanders and Bodyguards on the other hand, had the ability to take multiple relics, which was a capability shared by only two or three other units across the entire game. In particular, towards the end of 7th, Farsight suits could take as many as 14 relics on a single model and, depending on your interpretation of Gathering Storm, another relic each from two other armies. The "Blingmander" wasn't particularly useful (many of the relics did, in fact contradict one another), but was kinda funny to see in action.

As much as I'd like to see that particular quirk of Tau's return, I much prefer the ability to put relics on non-suits given to us in 8th.

User avatar
Lostroninsoul
Shas'Saal
Posts: 226

Re: Frontline Gaming - Chapter Approved - Review Discussion

Post#36 » Nov 29 2017 06:30

Arka0415 wrote:
Lostroninsoul wrote:Good catch on my typo I meant "fire caste Exemplar" shoots hard to hit. His buff affects himself negating the - 1 to hit rolls. Add the exemplar of kayoun trait and profit.

Is "Exemplar of Kauyon" really worth it though? You can get re-roll 1s almost anywhere in the Index.

I say yes. This allows you to shoot across the table, at full accuracy. If your opponent is playing around this, it's still ok because your opponent is probably making less than optimal moves.
This also means longstrike is more likely to earn his points back just by being our long range sniper support. With most armies having considerably less range, so his survivability also increases. This makes denying your opponent 'slay the warlord easier'. If he lives to turn 4 shooting only his railgun, I believe he challenges FB Comander for damage/points efficiency (assuming the Commander dies the turn after like how I normally see him do).
It also means he can shoot targets you didn't light up with markerlights, so you can conserve markerlights for a closer target. Markerlight conservation will probably be important with CA release. Our armies will probably decrease markerlight sources and will likely only be getting only one target lit up with 5 ML hits at a time. I say this because 1 the strategem is a one use per turn, 2 we will less likely be running less extra pathfinders because it's easier to get to five ML hits now, and 3 our opponents will probably still target our ML support. So I think it will play out like this: I can delete ONE target under full ML support and then dish out extra damage to anywhere in LOS with long strike turn after turn.

Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ErSe0831 and 4 guests