An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

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Torch
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#55 » Jan 17 2018 11:10

Temennigru wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:
Temennigru wrote:Having JSJ as a stratagem is useless. The whole point of JSJ was moving often with all your units to kite your enemies.
I would never pay 1 CP for moving out of turn with a single unit.

Let's assume that a 1 CP stratagem becomes the reality though. You could use a build with one mid-range XV8 unit and one short-range XV8 unit, where only the short-range unit needed the stratagem. Or you could run a 5-model or 6-model XV8 deathstar that only required the stratagem once. I agree that it's not the same as JSJ, but it seems clear that we'll get such a stratagem.

That is a waste of a stratagem slot. I would rather have the ad-mech "explode a vehicle" or the ork "this turn, every 6 gives you an extra shot". Those would be way better options. JSJ should be vectored retrothrusters or some other support system if we are to pay for it.


Have you seen some of the stratagems other armies got? They're not all good or super useful. Heck, that Ork one is terrible: it's 1/6 of your shots getting an extra 1/3 chance to hit. 10 shoota boys might get 1-2 extra hits... for 1 CP. Tempestus scions have it (sorta) as a free faction trait and it's still weak. Besides, Eldar have JSJ as a stratagem and they think it's one of their better ones. Also, the number of stratagems varies, so there really is no "slot" it would be taking.

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Arka0415
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#56 » Jan 17 2018 11:15

Torch wrote:Have you seen some of the stratagems other armies got? They're not all good or super useful. Heck, that Ork one is terrible: it's 1/6 of your shots getting an extra 1/3 chance to hit. 10 shoota boys might get 1-2 extra hits... for 1 CP. Tempestus scions have it (sorta) as a free faction trait and it's still weak. Besides, Eldar have JSJ as a stratagem and they think it's one of their better ones. Also, the number of stratagems varies, so there really is no "slot" it would be taking.

Yeah, everyone gets lousy stratagems. We just need to hope that we get a couple game-defining ones, like "Denizens of the Warp", "Machine Spirit Resurgent", or whatever the DA one is that increases Plasma damage.

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Kelandis
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#57 » Jan 17 2018 11:26

JSJ is not coming back for free, and I think that is fairly clear. However, I want to echo another idea made earlier in the thread, and that is that it could be the new ability of the Vectored Retro Thrusters support system for this edition. It would make an interesting choice, primarily for Crisis Battlesuits. Does one stick with three weapons in order ot have as much firepower as possible? Or instead take two weapons and VRT to be able to take a reliable 6" move in the assault phase. I think changing from a 2d6" to just 6" would be a better idea and sweeten the deal for trading firepower for maneuverability.

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Temennigru
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#58 » Jan 18 2018 04:46

Here's a wild idea:
What if we got something other than JSJ that synergized with moving around and increased our durability?
Like "if you moved at least half your movement, people shooting at you get -1 to hit" to represent how agile our suits are.

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Ghostly Daemon
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#59 » Jan 18 2018 05:15

Temennigru wrote:Here's a wild idea:
What if we got something other than JSJ that synergized with moving around and increased our durability?
Like "if you moved at least half your movement, people shooting at you get -1 to hit"


It's a nice idea, but I think that destroys the whole point of our battlesuits being mobile threats really.

I don't think a stratagem for JSJ is going to be amazing, but like has been said; we'll get some bad ones and with that, we should get some great ones too, so perhaps when all is said and done, we won't miss it at all :)
:fear: :fear: :fear: :fear: :fear: :evil:

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Temennigru
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#60 » Jan 18 2018 05:41

Ghostly Daemon wrote:
Temennigru wrote:Here's a wild idea:
What if we got something other than JSJ that synergized with moving around and increased our durability?
Like "if you moved at least half your movement, people shooting at you get -1 to hit"


It's a nice idea, but I think that destroys the whole point of our battlesuits being mobile threats really.

I don't think a stratagem for JSJ is going to be amazing, but like has been said; we'll get some bad ones and with that, we should get some great ones too, so perhaps when all is said and done, we won't miss it at all :)

There is no point in wasting design time in things that nobody will ever use. You might as well make everything good and some things situational but still good, or just don't bother. Unless JSJ stratagem is giving us a 20" out of turn move, they might as well design something else.

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Ghostly Daemon
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#61 » Jan 18 2018 06:02

Temennigru wrote:
Ghostly Daemon wrote:
Temennigru wrote:Here's a wild idea:
What if we got something other than JSJ that synergized with moving around and increased our durability?
Like "if you moved at least half your movement, people shooting at you get -1 to hit"


It's a nice idea, but I think that destroys the whole point of our battlesuits being mobile threats really.

I don't think a stratagem for JSJ is going to be amazing, but like has been said; we'll get some bad ones and with that, we should get some great ones too, so perhaps when all is said and done, we won't miss it at all :)

There is no point in wasting design time in things that nobody will ever use. You might as well make everything good and some things situational but still good, or just don't bother. Unless JSJ stratagem is giving us a 20" out of turn move, they might as well design something else.


I totally agree, but there are always going to be stratagems that some people think are garbage while others will use extensively - that's just how the game goes. Same as when JSJ was a mechanic; I'm sure some people used it religiously and others didn't bother with it in the slightest bit.
:fear: :fear: :fear: :fear: :fear: :evil:

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Arka0415
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#62 » Jan 18 2018 06:14

Ghostly Daemon wrote:
Temennigru wrote:
Ghostly Daemon wrote:
It's a nice idea, but I think that destroys the whole point of our battlesuits being mobile threats really.

I don't think a stratagem for JSJ is going to be amazing, but like has been said; we'll get some bad ones and with that, we should get some great ones too, so perhaps when all is said and done, we won't miss it at all :)

There is no point in wasting design time in things that nobody will ever use. You might as well make everything good and some things situational but still good, or just don't bother. Unless JSJ stratagem is giving us a 20" out of turn move, they might as well design something else.


I totally agree, but there are always going to be stratagems that some people think are garbage while others will use extensively - that's just how the game goes. Same as when JSJ was a mechanic; I'm sure some people used it religiously and others didn't bother with it in the slightest bit.

What if we get something not like JSJ, but rather something that allows us to pick up and redeploy models mid-game? That might be really useful.

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Ghostly Daemon
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#63 » Jan 18 2018 06:18

Arka0415 wrote:
Ghostly Daemon wrote:
Temennigru wrote:There is no point in wasting design time in things that nobody will ever use. You might as well make everything good and some things situational but still good, or just don't bother. Unless JSJ stratagem is giving us a 20" out of turn move, they might as well design something else.


I totally agree, but there are always going to be stratagems that some people think are garbage while others will use extensively - that's just how the game goes. Same as when JSJ was a mechanic; I'm sure some people used it religiously and others didn't bother with it in the slightest bit.

What if we get something not like JSJ, but rather something that allows us to pick up and redeploy models mid-game? That might be really useful.


That would be much better in my opinion, plus it makes it an actual tactical choice - do we redploy a Commander to deal with the other tank/monster or the Crisis team to deal with the incoming horde/marines/whatever?
:fear: :fear: :fear: :fear: :fear: :evil:

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DominayTrix
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#64 » Jan 18 2018 07:27

Moving JSJ to a Strategem would be a pretty hefty disappointment for Commander spam and would further inflate the value of Y'vahra since it is probably the best single target candidate for JSJ use. Another interesting option would be multiple units using JSJ, but costs multiple CP. Something along the lines of "Select 1 unit with the Jetpack keyword and 1 Commander with 6' inches, they may JSJ." I would happily pay 3CP for an army wide JSJ.

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Arka0415
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#65 » Jan 18 2018 07:41

DominayTrix wrote:Moving JSJ to a Strategem would be a pretty hefty disappointment for Commander spam and would further inflate the value of Y'vahra since it is probably the best single target candidate for JSJ use. Another interesting option would be multiple units using JSJ, but costs multiple CP. Something along the lines of "Select 1 unit with the Jetpack keyword and 1 Commander with 6' inches, they may JSJ." I would happily pay 3CP for an army wide JSJ.

Multiple-unit stratagems tend to be one unit for 1 CP, two units for 2-3 CP. I could imagine something like that.

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Torch
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#66 » Jan 18 2018 12:30

DominayTrix wrote:Moving JSJ to a Strategem would be a pretty hefty disappointment for Commander spam and would further inflate the value of Y'vahra since it is probably the best single target candidate for JSJ use. Another interesting option would be multiple units using JSJ, but costs multiple CP. Something along the lines of "Select 1 unit with the Jetpack keyword and 1 Commander with 6' inches, they may JSJ." I would happily pay 3CP for an army wide JSJ.


Well, it is possible to take 9 crisis suits in one team. That could make it worthwhile for 1 CP (they may have planned it that way). Though 9 suits are horrendously expensive, but that is a points issue.

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Temennigru
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#67 » Jan 18 2018 02:37

If we assume that mont'ka and kau'yon will become stratagems, JSJ could always be a monat thing:

Monat (???CP)
Chose a unit with a single model and less than 10 wounds
That unit can move, shoot, move, shoot, move, shoot

I'd pay 5 CP for that

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QimRas
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#68 » Jan 18 2018 06:43

Temennigru wrote:If we assume that mont'ka and kau'yon will become stratagems, JSJ could always be a monat thing:

Monat (???CP)
Chose a unit with a single model and less than 10 wounds
That unit can move, shoot, move, shoot, move, shoot

I'd pay 5 CP for that


I imagine if we get anything Monat like it will be closer to Unleash the Lions, which costs 2 CP and targets a unit. Each model in that unit is considered to be a separate unit for the rest of the game.

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Bloodknife92
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#69 » Jan 18 2018 06:46

DominayTrix wrote:Moving JSJ to a Strategem would be a pretty hefty disappointment for Commander spam and would further inflate the value of Y'vahra since it is probably the best single target candidate for JSJ use. Another interesting option would be multiple units using JSJ, but costs multiple CP. Something along the lines of "Select 1 unit with the Jetpack keyword and 1 Commander with 6' inches, they may JSJ." I would happily pay 3CP for an army wide JSJ.

I think the collective opinion for our codex reception is that we want to be able to build armies that DON'T include Commander spam. I for one, detest the idea of Commander spam. Its not tactical, its not smart, its just spamming one thing because its one of the only good things we have. Its depressing is what it is.

Unrelated to the quote: I think a strategem would be fine. I often only include one Crisis team in my army lists, and knowing that they're probably the models I'm going to want to re-deploy, the only other unit being my Ghostkeel to keep at range, then only getting to jump-shoot-jump once is fine in my books. That being said, I certainly don't operate a pure battlesuit army, so while I would benefit from it, a lot of players wouldn't.

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Arka0415
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#70 » Jan 18 2018 06:47

Temennigru wrote:If we assume that mont'ka and kau'yon will become stratagems, JSJ could always be a monat thing:

Monat (???CP)
Chose a unit with a single model and less than 10 wounds
That unit can move, shoot, move, shoot, move, shoot

I'd pay 5 CP for that

Haha, that would just make Commanders even better :D

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Temennigru
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#71 » Jan 18 2018 06:52

Arka0415 wrote:
Temennigru wrote:If we assume that mont'ka and kau'yon will become stratagems, JSJ could always be a monat thing:

Monat (???CP)
Chose a unit with a single model and less than 10 wounds
That unit can move, shoot, move, shoot, move, shoot

I'd pay 5 CP for that

Haha, that would just make Commanders even better :D

The whole point of monat is commanders doing their own thing, is it not?

QimRas wrote:
Temennigru wrote:If we assume that mont'ka and kau'yon will become stratagems, JSJ could always be a monat thing:

Monat (???CP)
Chose a unit with a single model and less than 10 wounds
That unit can move, shoot, move, shoot, move, shoot

I'd pay 5 CP for that


I imagine if we get anything Monat like it will be closer to Unleash the Lions, which costs 2 CP and targets a unit. Each model in that unit is considered to be a separate unit for the rest of the game.

I'm pretty sure that would break things such as breachers with tactical support turrets. Do each of them get their own turret?

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Torch
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#72 » Jan 18 2018 06:59

Nah, you only payed for one so you only get one.

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