AnonAmbientLight wrote:There's a disconnect to the arguments for JSJ. I think players are intentionally or unintentionally ignoring all the changes that have come to the game and how they interact with T'au. You can't just look at things like this from one angle. You have to look at the entire game and all its aspects. This is key. It's key to discussions like this. You have to continuously question your own premise from outside perspectives, and this forum notoriously does not do that.
This seem to assume we want JSJ and keeping all the other changes. We don't want that as a trick to be masters of the game. We want the return of a mechanism that was genetic to our battlesuit. Even if it's to loose something else.
AnonAmbientLight wrote:Currently no unit in the game has JSJ capabilities by default. Zero. This right there should be the first sign that maybe your argument for JSJ is flawed. No other unit has it, so it seems clear that GW is going for some kind of design goal. Is that a fair assumption?
GW design goal was first to speed up things for v8. JSJ added some game length by additionnal rolls/movement time and hide-and-seek tactics. But I am not sure that now games in V8 are much quickier to play than previous versions.
AnonAmbientLight wrote:Second, the game has changed drastically. JSJ was used to increase survivability for units as well as help with repositioning. This was necessary because of how things like deepstrike worked. It was also necessary because things were not as tanky back then, and guns were not as shooty. It is clear to see that firepower strength and damage has gone up as well as wounds. We don't need to assume that, we can see it. Twin linked weapons become two shot weapons. Models that had 5 wounds become 14. Putting JSJ back without any nerf to compensate would mean that these same units now become more shooty and more tanky. That's just a fact.
The Riptide that already has more than double the wounds from previous editions can now survive longer because it can JSJ out of LoS. The Crisis Suit that has already gained +1T +1W, perfect deepstrike, 2'' movement, etc, can now survive longer because it can JSJ out of LoS. Doubly so because of how drones work now.
You can take your Coldstar Commander, move him up 20'' to the edge of a building, shoot, then JSJ him an inch or two and now he is out of LoS.
Again, the problem is not the return of JSJ and keeping other bonuses. Trade-of are fine.
The FLY mechanism on jump pack marines or eldar is fine because they fight in CC and can jump out of combat if necessary. Not for our small elite forces with expensive battlesuits who want to avoid melee at all costs.
Our older fluff about battlesuit were not tanky units to get on melee, they were few elites used to deal swift and deadly strikes where they are needed before redeploying somewhere else.
So JSJ first was meant to represent that our jetpacked units could move 12" and firing weapons: JSJ was not 3 actions, its 2 actions in the same time: jump and shoot, but the game mechanism needed to units to fire on shooting phase and not on movement phase, so translate this into actions in 3 phases.
AnonAmbientLight wrote:One thing that no one has really replied to is the fact that JSJ is useless if it doesn't work. If you get snake eyes or can't get your unit to safety, that's it. Oops! So when JSJ didn't work, your unit would die or suffer heavy causalities. It seems to me that it's better for a unit to be more reliable and predictable on the battlefield rather than having to rely on dice to do the work. Dice that cannot be modified.
JSJ not working as intended was a way to learn to think in advance of enemy response (this was hard lessons for me when I started back in v4). Not obtusely crash in melee and relying on random tankiness to keep on fighting. JSJ needed to be thought to be played correctly.
Of course, if one want to plan on movements in advance, chess are better than 40K. But 40K v8 is more now a game of "hits vs wounds" for resolving combats than movement planification.
I am with you on the silly random movement in v6. Previous JSJ was better (but 6" was maybe too much back in v4 when most CC units couldn't run more than 6" in assault).
AnonAmbientLight wrote:If you really think that JSJ is fine and has to be back in, then play a game of 8th with JSJ on suits that would have it and see how you do. My guess is that your suits will largely become unkillable in the shooting phase and difficult to wipe out and catch in the assault phase.
Play with JSJ with less wounds/toughness would be fine. Keeping the hit bonus flyers and AA guns have against our battlesuit could be kept (if we are that agile, then any dedicated flak computer should hit us better).
And no puny guards with muddy boots should be able to catch our jet packed elites, only swift runners of flyers should.
JSJ return will obviously need our suits to be less tanky. And the occasion to rebalance some other things.