The Kroot need an Upgrade

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Arka0415
Shas'Vre
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#37 » Jan 31 2018 06:44

nic wrote:As might be apparent I have strong feelings about Kroot.

...

Give them back their Outflank rule. If that were combined with some access to Sniper fire (possibly a stratagem) it would make for an interesting ambush unit which is how I used them to good effect in 7th. I do not think this would be as much an easy and obvious competitive option but it would be better for the more relaxed or narrative minded players.

Always good to have the Kroot expert around! I'm not much of a Kroot player myself, but I can see how useful that ability would be. Basically a deep strike, but from a chosen board edge? Definitely could be interesting. Kroot definitely offer good speed with their scout move, but Outflank would be quite a bit better.

Torch wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:You're right that this doesn't make a lot of sense. While the Tau do pay the Kroot, I think the Kroot are also thankful that the Tau saved their species on Pech, and so offer loyal, self-sacrificing service to the Greater Good.

But Kroot offer their services to other organizations all the time. If they're fodder then they'll never survive long enough to cash in. Mercenaries have always been some of the most veteran troops available to commanders, because they're constantly honing their skills and NOT dying. That's the whole point of hiring them at premium rates.

I can see your point- Kroot as Tau "chaff" has long been an established part of the rules, which might just reflect a less-nuanced understanding- on GW's part- of what mercenaries do. Lots of video games portray mercenaries as disposable or expendable soldiers. At any rate, I'd be curious to hear from some of the lore-masters about the role of Kroot in the Empire.

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FoxZz
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#38 » Jan 31 2018 07:00

I'd rather have the Kroots improved rather than being made cheaper. Kroots are fierce warriors.

They're average shooters but are very agile and stealthy and brutal fighters, yet fragile. They also have the ability to eat their ennemies and gain some perks.

So as it was said above, Shaper needs to be an HQ choice with ennemy eating and ambush like stratagems as well as reroll ones. Maybe we could have a Kroots Shaman for Psy phase so Tau aren't completely useless at this stage.

Kroots need to have the infiltrate rule back, otherwise we could have Kroots scouts with the sniper rule and infiltrate as a fast attack or elite choice and keep the Kroots troop with just Vanguard. It suits well their guerilla style.

Since they are very agile and stealthy, they should probably have a bonus in cover as well as a hard to hit rule so they are more survivable. Maybe they could also have an even fastest movement like 8"

Lastly, what they really bring to Tau army is some combat capabilities, that's really where they should shine. Auxiliaries are meant to compensate an army weakness. 2 attacks would balance good as well as -1 AP for the sharp blades at the tip of their rifles. Since they have very dense muscles, S4 is needed on their profiles.

With this they could be bumped at 7pts, which is similar to fire warriors. This make sense, Kroots are respected fighters in their field complementary to fire warriors, not some meatshields, mercenaries don't do that.

Kroots hounds and Kroots also need to be looked at, maybe assault D3 for Kroot gun and AP -1 in melee ? Kroot hounds could have a counter charge mechanic when attached to a Kroot troop ?

Kroots really have potential, I love how they contrast with Tau and shows both the flaws, contradictions and pragmatism of the Tau. Esthetically, I the contrast between streamline clean Tau and messy Kroots is also great, it gives diversity and depth to the army. Have

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Shas'O R'Kai
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#39 » Feb 01 2018 08:52

What do we think about having Kroot hounds as almost like a Kroot version of a gun drone? Have them attach/deploy the same way as drones and then act as a separate unit. The models are so hard to get and it would help make them useful if we had some sort of counter charge rule on them. Possibly striking first in combat with a heroic intervention mechanic on them? Also some leadership bonuses when next to Carnivores/Shapers.

If Carnivores had some sort of decent bonus in cover and some extra combat potency, that would make them a really useful part of our army that we can't cover at the moment.

Regarding the Shaper, does anyone else think he should be made into a bit more of a beatstick? Around 5 attacks, S4 AP-2 with the ritual blade. Keeping the same rule on the ritual blade would then become viable with a weapon profile like this!

Krootox should also get a combat buff in addition to their gun being assault. Perhaps 3 attacks at AP-1? Also an extra toughness would help it a lot. Perhaps a slightly better armour save of 5+?

Does anyone think these changes would help change the kroot and make them more useful as something other than chaff?

R'Kai
Playing with a short reach since 2007 :crafty:

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JancoBCN
Shas'Saal
Posts: 100

Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#40 » Feb 01 2018 09:40

FoxZz wrote:I'd rather have the Kroots improved rather than being made cheaper. Kroots are fierce warriors.

They're average shooters but are very agile and stealthy and brutal fighters, yet fragile. They also have the ability to eat their ennemies and gain some perks.

So as it was said above, Shaper needs to be an HQ choice with ennemy eating and ambush like stratagems as well as reroll ones. Maybe we could have a Kroots Shaman for Psy phase so Tau aren't completely useless at this stage.

Kroots need to have the infiltrate rule back, otherwise we could have Kroots scouts with the sniper rule and infiltrate as a fast attack or elite choice and keep the Kroots troop with just Vanguard. It suits well their guerilla style.

Since they are very agile and stealthy, they should probably have a bonus in cover as well as a hard to hit rule so they are more survivable. Maybe they could also have an even fastest movement like 8"

Lastly, what they really bring to Tau army is some combat capabilities, that's really where they should shine. Auxiliaries are meant to compensate an army weakness. 2 attacks would balance good as well as -1 AP for the sharp blades at the tip of their rifles. Since they have very dense muscles, S4 is needed on their profiles.

With this they could be bumped at 7pts, which is similar to fire warriors. This make sense, Kroots are respected fighters in their field complementary to fire warriors, not some meatshields, mercenaries don't do that.

Kroots hounds and Kroots also need to be looked at, maybe assault D3 for Kroot gun and AP -1 in melee ? Kroot hounds could have a counter charge mechanic when attached to a Kroot troop ?

Kroots really have potential, I love how they contrast with Tau and shows both the flaws, contradictions and pragmatism of the Tau. Esthetically, I the contrast between streamline clean Tau and messy Kroots is also great, it gives diversity and depth to the army. Have



While I agree with you in that those changes could be good for them and useful for us (Commanders), let's analyse the new kroot carnivores you propose:

Basically, an Hormagaunt (they cost 5p) with -1WS (they have 4+), +1S, +2Sv in cover instead of +1, infiltrator, hard to hit and with AP-1 attacks. And all that for the cost of 2p more than him? As a T'au player, you should know how critical the "Hard to hit" modifier is when you only trust in your ranged weapons to kill your opponent. This alone bump those Kroot to 7p already, and the other special rules and better stats make them, at least, at 9p.

Keep in mind that those Carnivores are a pretty flexible unit, they can shoot, hold objectives, charge to weak units, or make a perfect screen at 7" from your deployment zone before starting the game. If you add your suggestions, you make them almost an elite unit (Genestealer?) but with all those extra tactical flexibility.

I am an advocate of making them cheaper as they are now (I cannot see them at less than 5p, though), and then add some auras/weapon options. This way you can use them as Meatshields, or as a tactical unit to bo a specific job if well supported.

I think Kroot carnivors do shine at close combat, if you think about it. The only other troop choice of a similar price that I know that actually beats them are Ork Boys. But they are slow, and only good at that, and they don't have an army behind supporting them with the most powerfull long-range weapons, and tough battlesuits to give them fire support on the up front (I know, we currently don't have them either, but I hope that changes when the codex arrives!). Note that Hormagaunts can have more attacks (2), but with S3 and no shooting make them weaker than our kroot friends.

TLDR: Again:
- Good auras (from the Shaper and other Characters), like +1A or +1S, and better Morale!
- Point reduction from the current version, so changes like "hard to hit", +1A or +2Sv in cover don't start adding from those 6p (they should be at 5p)
- Give them something to make them stealthy, I don't care what is it if it is well costed.

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Arka0415
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Posts: 3120

Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#41 » Feb 01 2018 09:49

JancoBCN wrote:I think Kroot carnivors do shine at close combat, if you think about it. The only other troop choice of a similar price that I know that actually beats them are Ork Boys. But they are slow, and only good at that, and they don't have an army behind supporting them with the most powerfull long-range weapons, and tough battlesuits to give them fire support on the up front (I know, we currently don't have them either, but I hope that changes when the codex arrives!). Note that Hormagaunts can have more attacks (2), but with S3 and no shooting make them weaker than our kroot friends.

I agree. Kroot are actually very strong as assault units- between shooting and charging, 12 Kroot will output enough damage to kill an entire squad of light infantry like Guardsmen. They also fill the fantastic role that units like Space Marine Scouts do- they're screening troops who excel at killing other screening troops.

The only reason Kroot aren't a premier assault unit is that (a) they're a bit overcosted right now, and (b) we have no melee heavy-hitters to back them up, as it should be.

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JancoBCN
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Posts: 100

Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#42 » Feb 01 2018 10:05

Arka0415 wrote:The only reason Kroot aren't a premier assault unit is that (a) they're a bit overcosted right now, and (b) we have no melee heavy-hitters to back them up, as it should be.


Exactly!

Arka0415 wrote:as it should be.


I agree on that a 10000% (boy, math is hard), we don't need to have everything, we are the only faccion that only uses 1 of the 3 offensive phases of the game, and we still do great sometimes competitively wise (and with Index, before those expected changes from the Codex!).

Kroot help us in that weird phase that is the charge/combat phase of our turn, but they are not supposed to be the best unit in the game at that. Even with their help, I love how T'au still find themselves behind in that melee area, and we have to find the way of make up for that in the previous shooting phase.

For the same reason, I like no having access to any psychic powers whatsoever, although some resiliency/protection could be usefull to not just die to Psyker spam lists. Also, good Stratagems and auras would suffice to replace those huge bonuses that Eldar, Chaos or Tyranids have in that unknown and mystical phase.

Ricordis
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 381

Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#43 » Feb 01 2018 11:37

JancoBCN wrote:
I agree on that a 10000% (boy, math is hard), we don't need to have everything, we are the only faccion that only uses 1 of the 3 offensive phases of the game, and we still do great sometimes competitively wise (and with Index, before those expected changes from the Codex!).



T'au is so beginner friendly; we only need to know 1/3 of the rulebook. I have to admit, if the codex suddenly gives us something for the psychic phase I have to reread that chapter in the rulebook. But until then I keep calling it "T'au Dance Phase" because I do a 3-5 seconds dance.

"Stop dancing!"
"Only if you stop manifesting psi powers."
"But that's my psi phase."
"And that's my dance phase."

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Torch
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Posts: 77

Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#44 » Feb 01 2018 01:22

The last time I used Kroot they got massacred by Guardsmen in close combat (and don't get me started on Orks). They really need help. 2 attacks would be the minimum to keep them the same price. Any other perks (AP -1, bonus cover, or -1 to be hit in the fight phase) could see them go up to 7 pts though.

Ash87
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Posts: 61

Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#45 » Feb 15 2018 02:43

I'd be okay if they kept hounds as the punchy kroot and carnivores as shooty kroot.

And I'd be okay if they kept hounds where they were at (I like hounds, I'll bring them as cheap little lawn mower units).

But Carnivores just... they need Something. I get the appeal, but their base unit is more expensive than the units of Firewarriors I bring.. but for a 6+ save. They get Eaten in anything. I rather liked them having sniping abilities last edition, that would be a cool start.. but if they are going to have T3... They are supposed to be a roadbump, not those little elevated painted lines. Give them more Bump.

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JancoBCN
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#46 » Feb 15 2018 05:33

Ash87 wrote:I'd be okay if they kept hounds as the punchy kroot and carnivores as shooty kroot.

And I'd be okay if they kept hounds where they were at (I like hounds, I'll bring them as cheap little lawn mower units).

But Carnivores just... they need Something. I get the appeal, but their base unit is more expensive than the units of Firewarriors I bring.. but for a 6+ save. They get Eaten in anything. I rather liked them having sniping abilities last edition, that would be a cool start.. but if they are going to have T3... They are supposed to be a roadbump, not those little elevated painted lines. Give them more Bump.


I actually don't see Kroot as a "punchy" unit, a "shooty" unit, etc. But I see a group of units that have potential to have unique abilities and synergy between each other, to give us a whole new spectrum of tactical possibilities.

I like Kroot Carnivores where they are now, their shooting is minor, but still they are shooting boltguns at 4+, which is not bad. They have to be more tactical than a weak-but-cheap shooty unit with some melee deffense. Put them at 2 attacks each and some kind of stealthy mechanic (-1 to hit or +2 to Save in cover) to make them great again. Of course, those things can be done with Shaper auras and point readjustment. And I would be shocked if they don't give kroot back the ability to Deep strike from an edge (with an Stratagem, for example).
Kroot Carnivores are wild people with blood thirst, they have to represent that in some way on the tabletop.

Regarding Hounds, I also like them, but they need synergy with other kroot units (useful auras? support character that can actually catch up with them?). Some way to protect them could be great too, btw.

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Sunbreak
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#47 » Feb 16 2018 05:13

FoxZz wrote:I'd rather have the Kroots improved rather than being made cheaper. Kroots are fierce warriors.

With this they could be bumped at 7pts, which is similar to fire warriors. This make sense, Kroots are respected fighters in their field complementary to fire warriors, not some meatshields, mercenaries don't do that.


I like these ideas, however would it be more themetatic to allow players to evolve their kroot to suit their needs? i.e. a basic Kroot as is would be the 5ish points (or an extra str and attack for 8/9). Then you can take adaptations for +1 of various things, i.e eaten orks so stronger and with more attacks, but lower BS; Kroot Hawk starting evolution, better eyesight so +1bs and able to target charaters, forest stalker trait (infiltrate etc). Maybe allow you to get multiple traits so you can have more expensive harder hitting shock troops or snipers etc. Give them a range of weapons to take aswell.

Would allow for some interesting conversions or maybe this is the kind of thing you'll get in an Auxiliaries Codex with each one being a seperate unit.

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