The Kroot need an Upgrade

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Shas'O R'Kai
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#19 » Jan 30 2018 07:23

PeeJ wrote:I thought I was the only person! I mean, I have some, because I'm a completionist, but I don't like how they look at all, same with vespid.

Having said that, I have Vespid proxies that look like T'au now, maybe I can find a way to Kroot proxy too.


No you're definitely not alone! I have some too from when I was younger and didn't really know what I wanted. The Vespid however I actually don't mind. They're at least armoured with the same Tau armour plating and have Tau style guns. I do much prefer a converted Vespid Tau proxy though. I'm in the process of converting the old smaller stealthsuits into Vespid proxy's, so I'll soon be able to use them!

As for kroot, if they were made either cheaper or better I'd consider using them. I don't know how we'd proxy them to be Tau though. Gue'Vesa could work but again, I want Tau not silly humans!

R'Kai
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Arka0415
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#20 » Jan 30 2018 07:26

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:
PeeJ wrote:I thought I was the only person! I mean, I have some, because I'm a completionist, but I don't like how they look at all, same with vespid.

Having said that, I have Vespid proxies that look like T'au now, maybe I can find a way to Kroot proxy too.


No you're definitely not alone! I have some too from when I was younger and didn't really know what I wanted. The Vespid however I actually don't mind. They're at least armoured with the same Tau armour plating and have Tau style guns. I do much prefer a converted Vespid Tau proxy though. I'm in the process of converting the old smaller stealthsuits into Vespid proxy's, so I'll soon be able to use them!

As for kroot, if they were made either cheaper or better I'd consider using them. I don't know how we'd proxy them to be Tau though. Gue'Vesa could work but again, I want Tau not silly humans!

It's funny, my experience playing Tau has taken me in the opposite direction. I have so much ochre armor and blue skin, I want to see something reflect the diversity of the Tau Empire- mainly, Kroot and Gue'vesa. I'd love to have some squads of Kroot in my army as well as Gue'vesa Breachers or something like that!

PeeJ
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#21 » Jan 30 2018 07:41

Arka0415 wrote:It's funny, my experience playing Tau has taken me in the opposite direction. I have so much ochre armor and blue skin, I want to see something reflect the diversity of the Tau Empire- mainly, Kroot and Gue'vesa. I'd love to have some squads of Kroot in my army as well as Gue'vesa Breachers or something like that!


I would agree with you 100% if the models didn't look pants.

Gue'vesa breachers have the potential to look beautiful if done right (there are lots of nice human sculpts and they fit well with T'au weapons/armour).

I just feel like the stuff GW did create as 'auxiliaries' were very much done as a lazy afterthought. They haven't been given much love at all and look rushed to start with. But that's just my opinion on the models.

They could make some beautiful sculpts, the army is basically a free-pass to sculpt any kind of crazy alien they want and only have to do a squad or two, not a whole army, but they've just not bothered. If they ever did though, I'd want them to have a unifying feature (like the Vespids T'au style armour), not just be weird gangly birdmen things.

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Arka0415
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#22 » Jan 30 2018 07:58

PeeJ wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:It's funny, my experience playing Tau has taken me in the opposite direction. I have so much ochre armor and blue skin, I want to see something reflect the diversity of the Tau Empire- mainly, Kroot and Gue'vesa. I'd love to have some squads of Kroot in my army as well as Gue'vesa Breachers or something like that!

I would agree with you 100% if the models didn't look pants.

Ah, here we must disagree :D Kroot offer the perfect foil to Tau- crazy, feathery, carnivorous bird-people. Gotta love it. I initially hated the Kroot, but after a decade of playing Tau I've come around. Kroot aren't just intrinsically cool, they also make their Tau allies look even cooler and cleaner!

HivMnd
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#23 » Jan 30 2018 08:03

With the coming of the codex, I think the Kroot need a rule like the tempestus and not count against a detachment having the sept rules.

And/or having their own HQ unit, so one can make a Kroot mercenary detachment.

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Shas'O R'Kai
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#24 » Jan 30 2018 08:16

I think a feature of the Kroot often forgotten about is the whole "eat the fallen enemy" thing they do. I'd LOVE to see this come back in some kind of special rule. Be it a -1 Ld AoE to enemies within 6", a bonus variable stat that works like combat drugs or similar, or something else interesting and fluffy. I think the concept of absolute rapid evolution via careful consumption of fallen enemies is really awesome. I feel like Kroot have lost this cool flavour in the last few editions.

R'Kai
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ErSe0831
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#25 » Jan 30 2018 11:00

In the "Greater Evil" book that was released some months ago, there are two Kroot present, a male and female, fighting together in a duo. Much like the Parshendi in the Stormlight-books (if anyone have read that). It would be cool if this was represented in the rules somehow. :-?

(They also remind me of the Marat in Furies of Calderon, eating their enemies to gain their strength :nice:)

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K'Pokk
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#26 » Jan 30 2018 11:05

Looking forward to a good Kroot fix. I like them because they *are* messy and repulsive. The Tau certainly think so! They are not Tau but an allied race so need to be a contrast.

I've had some good games in the past against Orks when they used to get extra cover bonuses in forests. They used to be fairly good in combat as long as your opponent was Imp Guard(!). Carnivores on their own are not going to win battles but when supported by all available models they do fine: hounds, krootox, shapers (they used to have their own character Ankhor Prokk), greater and lesser knarlocs.

Part of the problem with bringing essentially a jungle hunter with fieldcraft skills and stealth/combat abilities is the rubbish way cover is treated in the current 40K main rules. While cover is as insignificant as it is a fieldcraft specialist is not going to shine.

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Wes
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#27 » Jan 30 2018 11:08

I'd like to see Kroot be a more interesting unit in battle, whether it means modifying their base stats or adding in "kindred traits" that give bonuses to particular stats.

I purchased both kroot carnivores and vespid because I like the lore and look as part of an assembled T'au Empire force, and I like a relatively lore-friendly list. I'd get some other kroot units, too, but the others are pretty expensive.

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K'Pokk
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#28 » Jan 30 2018 11:19

Once upon a time and long ago the Kroot came in various forms depending on what they were in the habit of eating. I did a spot of converting some time ago and have a unit of Vulture Kroot which was once an "official" part of the rules. A White Dwarf supplement fleshed out the Kroot race and there was a fan group for a while "Kompletely Kroot" . Now my Vulture Kroot are used as proxy Vespid.

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Torch
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#29 » Jan 30 2018 08:39

Arka0415 wrote:
Torch wrote:Kroot really need an extra attack. Ork boyz are 6 pts too and they get 2 attacks with the option to get up to 4.

That said, Kroot have much stronger shooting, with BS4+ and a 24" gun, and the infiltrate rule. 6 points is too expensive, but it might only take a small decrease in points to make them worth it!


Well, Ork Shoota Boyz have T4, 2 attacks and an assault 2 gun. If you take more than 20 they get 3 attacks. So they are on close to on par in shooting, better in close combat and tougher to kill. They're also fearless in large groups.

If Kroot got 3 attacks they may well be worth those 6 pts, which I think is better than just making them cheaper. Aren't they supposed to be super agile?

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Arka0415
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#30 » Jan 30 2018 08:56

Torch wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:
Torch wrote:Kroot really need an extra attack. Ork boyz are 6 pts too and they get 2 attacks with the option to get up to 4.

That said, Kroot have much stronger shooting, with BS4+ and a 24" gun, and the infiltrate rule. 6 points is too expensive, but it might only take a small decrease in points to make them worth it!


Well, Ork Shoota Boyz have T4, 2 attacks and an assault 2 gun. If you take more than 20 they get 3 attacks. So they are on close to on par in shooting, better in close combat and tougher to kill. They're also fearless in large groups.

If Kroot got 3 attacks they may well be worth those 6 pts, which I think is better than just making them cheaper. Aren't they supposed to be super agile?

Let's say Kroot drop to 5pts each and otherwise don't change. 12 Kroot would roughly equal 10 Shoota Boyz. If Kroot shot and charged the Shoota Boyz, they would get 12 hits in shooting and 8 hits in combat. If the Shoota Boyz charged they would get 6.7 hits in shooting and 13.3 hits in combat. That's total parity. Orks get +1T and bonus morale, while Kroot get the Scout move and a higher Movement characteristic.

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Torch
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#31 » Jan 30 2018 11:54

Arka0415 wrote:
Torch wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:That said, Kroot have much stronger shooting, with BS4+ and a 24" gun, and the infiltrate rule. 6 points is too expensive, but it might only take a small decrease in points to make them worth it!


Well, Ork Shoota Boyz have T4, 2 attacks and an assault 2 gun. If you take more than 20 they get 3 attacks. So they are on close to on par in shooting, better in close combat and tougher to kill. They're also fearless in large groups.

If Kroot got 3 attacks they may well be worth those 6 pts, which I think is better than just making them cheaper. Aren't they supposed to be super agile?

Let's say Kroot drop to 5pts each and otherwise don't change. 12 Kroot would roughly equal 10 Shoota Boyz. If Kroot shot and charged the Shoota Boyz, they would get 12 hits in shooting and 8 hits in combat. If the Shoota Boyz charged they would get 6.7 hits in shooting and 13.3 hits in combat. That's total parity. Orks get +1T and bonus morale, while Kroot get the Scout move and a higher Movement characteristic.


It's something but considering people aren't too fond of Shoota Boyz, it's not a great aspiration. Regardless I just think it's silly that mercenaries are fodder which is why I think making them worth more points is better. 3 attacks just feels right to me based on fluff, independent of points. :P

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Arka0415
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#32 » Jan 31 2018 02:56

Torch wrote:It's something but considering people aren't too fond of Shoota Boyz, it's not a great aspiration.

Well, I mean, it's not like we're going to get an analogue to Slugga Boyz, so :D Also, the shooting accuracy of Kroot can be increased and their to-wound rolls for both shooting and combat can be increased, so they actually have an edge over Shoota Boyz.

In fact, if Kroot do drop to 5pts/model, they would become our most powerful source of anti-T3 shooting, better even than Gun Drones.

Torch wrote:Regardless I just think it's silly that mercenaries are fodder which is why I think making them worth more points is better. 3 attacks just feels right to me based on fluff, independent of points.

You're right that this doesn't make a lot of sense. While the Tau do pay the Kroot, I think the Kroot are also thankful that the Tau saved their species on Pech, and so offer loyal, self-sacrificing service to the Greater Good.

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gunrock
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#33 » Jan 31 2018 03:37

Arka0415 wrote:Ah, here we must disagree :D Kroot offer the perfect foil to Tau- crazy, feathery, carnivorous bird-people. Gotta love it. I initially hated the Kroot, but after a decade of playing Tau I've come around. Kroot aren't just intrinsically cool, they also make their Tau allies look even cooler and cleaner!


Their flavor has really started to grow on me, I dig the earthy, slightly brutal, tribal undertones. Play wise, outside of a stat change or a points reduction I would really like to see Kroot get infiltrate back in some form. I think it gave them a really unique niche outside of strike teams and interesting possibilities to work with other units.

(correction note: infiltrate was from 6th, 7th was outflank)
Last edited by gunrock on Jan 31 2018 03:07, edited 1 time in total.
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nic
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#34 » Jan 31 2018 04:07

As might be apparent I have strong feelings about Kroot.

The aesthetics of Kroot are definitely different and I can quite understand why a lot of T'au players feel that they do not fit. I came to love this army precisely because of its classically imperial feel and the way my T'au can stand out from the masses of weird and wild auxiliary troops. Auxiliaries and battlesuits are the two stand-out aspects of the model range for me - now I will admit I am odd and put auxiliaries in battlesuits but I probably just have too much green stuff and time on my hands.

On the table Kroot are feeling a little bland and a little underpowered for their points in 8th. Clearly that could be fixed in a few ways:
  • Drop them to 5 points, which is what they should be with the current rules. That would make them a decent competitive choice and also improve T'au as a faction because good chaff is strong in competitive play. It would leave the Kroot themselves bland.
  • Give them back their Outflank rule. If that were combined with some access to Sniper fire (possibly a stratagem) it would make for an interesting ambush unit which is how I used them to good effect in 7th. I do not think this would be as much an easy and obvious competitive option but it would be better for the more relaxed or narrative minded players.
  • Make them better at fighting. To be fair I think 8th did improve their combat prowess fractionally but it is still only good enough to bully weak or weakened units. This could be quite a fun option but it would make Kroot a complete glass hammer because falling over to a stiff breeze is very much a part of their design as a unit and is extremely unlikely to change.
  • Special terrain rules. Possibly gaining additional benefit from cover or even being able to be hidden deployed and then appear in cover. Another option that is probably better for the casual and narrative players than the competitive scene - a different way to reflect their role as stalkers of prey than outflank.

I really do hope that when GW have a massive gap in their publication schedule after all the codexes drop that they pick up the old Kroot Mercenaries idea and we get an auxiliaries codex. Realistically we will almost certainly have to wait for that before we get any properly interesting and fun rules for Kroot.

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Torch
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#35 » Jan 31 2018 12:19

Arka0415 wrote:You're right that this doesn't make a lot of sense. While the Tau do pay the Kroot, I think the Kroot are also thankful that the Tau saved their species on Pech, and so offer loyal, self-sacrificing service to the Greater Good.


But Kroot offer their services to other organizations all the time. If they're fodder then they'll never survive long enough to cash in. Mercenaries have always been some of the most veteran troops available to commanders, because they're constantly honing their skills and NOT dying. That's the whole point of hiring them at premium rates.

Shas'o Shortsight
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Re: The Kroot need an Upgrade

Post#36 » Jan 31 2018 04:09

Kroot would cost the same as guardsman at 5 points and are a lot better. I can't envision them that cheap.

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